Tier List Speculation

[shairn]

EDIT: Accidental double post

 

[Player -0]

Can we talk about how bad Up-b Tethers character's recoveries are now? Out of Olimar, Ivy, and ZSS, only ZSS even has the ability to mix-up and recovery high with down-b. The other two are either forced to get close and air dodge onto the stage, or just die because tethers are obscenely easy to punish now. You just have to grab the ledge before they up-b, then wait until they are forced to pull up (because they cant tether cancel anymore) then ledge hop and throw out a strong move that covers all their drift options, which either kills them or resets the situation. If you dont kill them, you just do it one more time and they cant actually recovery.

Its stupid how bad these recoveries are because they are too easy to edge guard. They have only one option to go for, and it can be covered easily with no real ability for them to mix it up. These recoveries are almost melee Doc levels of bad.

I tried to bring this up at one point. Got shot down hard.

Olimar can stall with down B and neutral B until your invincibility runs out and stage spike you with upB.
Meanwhile, Sheik literally dies as soon as you grab the ledge. There's nothing wrong with having a bad recovery.

If I remember right...
- They removed Oli's doing damage/KB on tethering to the stage (for some reason).
- Oli has one pretty good nB stall (rest are pretty bad.)
- Oli's Down B doesn't stall at all. You can B-reverse/wavebounce but how does that help if you're recovering low lel.

Edit - I can't read, someone's already said the above.

 

[leekslap]

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, what part of nerfing ledge stalls makes it so holding a rollout charge isn't broken? If it works anything like other charge moves it can be canceled at any time, so it's a relatively risk free move so long as you position yourself correctly. And second, there's nothing predictable about rollout if you already have it charged and pull it out when you're next to your opponent. If you ask me, it sounds like she'd be a lot more dumb.

I smell a lot of bias in this. DrinkingFood suggests it, gets no hate all praise. I suggest it, no likes and a critique straight out of YouTube. Give me a chance guys! I changed my signature, look! You are exaggerating how good it will be and how bad my post was, almost like if it was on purpose. By this logic, Samus's neutral b is way more OP since it is a projectile and thus unpunishable if used well. Why is it not OP? Because you are not meant to spam it. Why? Because its predictable if you have any amount of Samus MU expierience/understand spacing, positioning, and/or covering options, and in Jiggs's case, it's punishable as hell. Jeez! Lay off me guys; I'm sorry!

 

[shairn]

I've never seen DF suggest it, to be honest. Also, no charge move in the game currently give the character a movement option.
It's not OP because you're not meant to spam it? That doesn't even mean anything. Obviously it's predictable if you shoot it in neutral, but it can be combo'd into or sent to an offstage opponent to greatly reduce their options. Predictability has nothing to do with it, because you shouldn't be using these moves in situations where the hit isn't at least somewhat guaranteed in the first place.
You still haven't explained what ledge mechanics have to do with charging a move.

 

[Soft Serve]

I've never seen DF suggest it, to be honest. Also, no charge move in the game currently give the character a movement option.
It's not OP because you're not meant to spam it? That doesn't even mean anything. Obviously it's predictable if you shoot it in neutral, but it can be combo'd into or sent to an offstage opponent to greatly reduce their options. Predictability has nothing to do with it, because you shouldn't be using these moves in situations where the hit isn't at least somewhat guaranteed in the first place.
You still haven't explained what ledge mechanics have to do with charging a move.

technically samus/M2 charges push them back, and ROB's charge gives him a projectile that he can AGT with, but thats just nitpicking. I agree with what you're saying.
If jiggs actually needs help, giving her a chargable rollout solves nothing. She doesn't struggle in killing, she can follow everyone out offstage and just cover options+edge guard. She just gets beat by a lot of characters that out range and out punish her in neutral, and dont have to comit to options for her to weave around+punish.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Storable rollout charge gives her long reaching burst range mid percent kill option that the opponent can only prevent her from gaining by approaching. It solves her weakness to camping issue by encouraging the opponent to approach. I've suggested it a few times, once in reddit, I had other changes to the rollout besides being just able to store the current max charge so that it wouldn't be silly, don't feel like going into detail on it now though.

 

[shairn]

If a character has a projectile, aside from Fox, the effect of charging rollout is basically nullified though.

 

[DMG]

I'd fix Jiggs by giving her Charizard CC power, Bowser armor on half her moves, Upb changed from Sing to Bounce, and a flammable sword that kills at 20%

To balance her out, she would not be able to shield or instantly shield break/die, her aerials don't use the sword, her throws would be changed to lose any combo or kill potential, and her air mobility/acceleration/changing is cut into half (meaning she can approach you going 1 direction just as fast, but changing directions on a dime would be hella slow)


I actually fixed Jiggs, give me a pile of money to sleep on


Edit: @ steelguttey bro are u in this ****in PM wifi tourney with me?? http://challonge.com/tournamentprom

DON'T THINK U CAN HIDE! (I think I missed the entire thing, despite signing up 2 weeks in advance. ***)

 

[leekslap]

I've never seen DF suggest it, to be honest. Also, no charge move in the game currently give the character a movement option.
It's not OP because you're not meant to spam it? That doesn't even mean anything. Obviously it's predictable if you shoot it in neutral, but it can be combo'd into or sent to an offstage opponent to greatly reduce their options. Predictability has nothing to do with it, because you shouldn't be using these moves in situations where the hit isn't at least somewhat guaranteed in the first place.
You still haven't explained what ledge mechanics have to do with charging a move.

A movement option that leaves you out in the open for a punish. That's why it is not broken. Because you have to set it up, and that's what I meant by not spamming it. I've never seen a Samus do exactly how I imagine ( ESAM did something similar ) this, but theoretically Samus can ice missile camp all day and charge her neutral b whenever it's safe until she can kill with it, ice fair, and ice up smash. It's a lot more complex than that and it involves running away and combo breaker nairs and DI, but I think it could work. That's definetly better than it would ever be on Jiggs, and it's one of the reasons Samus is good. As for the ledge stall being nerfed, the whole loses invincibility after one ledge grab would stop Jiggs from camping on a non projectile character.

If a character has a projectile, aside from Fox, the effect of charging rollout is basically nullified though.

But she has jumps, so she could just charge it in the air and force full hop aerial approaches, which she can then punish. It was just an idea and if you know a better one then enlighten me.

 

[Strong Badam]

Tier List Speculation Thread: AKA let's talk about how to buff/nerf characters instead of discussing how good/bad they are like every other game does.

 

[shairn]

Tier List Speculation Thread: AKA let's talk about how to buff/nerf characters instead of discussing how good/bad they are like every other game does.

Ain't nobody got time for that
When's 4.0

 

[DrinkingFood]

I was just repeating something I initially suggest a while before 3.5 came out. Dunno how we even got back on the topic of buffing Jiggs but my name and suggestion got mentioned
Also idk DMG were you just implying my suggestion was silly or not implying anything at all. I don't think it's that far out there really

 

[leekslap]

Tier List Speculation Thread: AKA let's talk about how to buff/nerf characters instead of discussing how good/bad they are like every other game does.

With all due respect, I think the general consensus is that Jiggs isn't that good. Mid tier at best. As for Olimar, even people like Soft Serve who defended him and made me realize Olimar is not low tier but low-mid or once in a blue moon mid tier, agree that Olimar is just trash. I heard Ice Climbers have an infinite now. Does that help their placement or did I hear a lie? If they got any type of buff, Icies should have a better time dealing with the nerfed cast. I wanna know about Zelda though. I've heard that she sucks now but that's what everyone but R.O.B., Wolf, and Roy mains say about their character. Sonic is still ridiculous, but he can't go 2000 miles under sea level for a kill and doesn't spam down b anymore. Samus mains don't realize their character is ridiculous, and the leaked characters would be ungodly. But their probably gonna get nerfed at release so whatever. Melee top tiers are still top tiers. That's all I know, and saying everyone else is mid tier would be kind of ignorant. This is just my opinions so feel free to kill me for them like you guys always do.

 

[GP&B]

Jeez! Lay off me guys; I'm sorry!

This is just my opinions so feel free to kill me for them like you guys always do.

tbh, you'd make 50% less obnoxious posts if you stopped having a victim mentality like this. Make an assessment of why you get the responses you do instead of putting up this weird front.

 

[shairn]

People generally agreed Jiggs was bad in 3.02, but in 3.5 that might not be the case. We should really examine what made her bad in 3.02 and whether or not that still hinders her as much in 3.5.

 

[DrinkingFood]

With all due respect, I think the general consensus is that Jiggs isn't that good. Mid tier at best. As for Olimar, even people like Soft Serve who defended him and made me realize Olimar is not low tier but low-mid or once in a blue moon mid tier, agree that Olimar is just trash. I heard Ice Climbers have an infinite now. Does that help their placement or did I hear a lie? If they got any type of buff, Icies should have a better time dealing with the nerfed cast. I wanna know about Zelda though. I've heard that she sucks now but that's what everyone but R.O.B., Wolf, and Roy mains say about their character. Sonic is still ridiculous, but he can't go 2000 miles under sea level for a kill and doesn't spam down b anymore. Samus mains don't realize their character is ridiculous, and the leaked characters would be ungodly. But their probably gonna get nerfed at release so whatever. Melee top tiers are still top tiers. That's all I know, and saying everyone else is mid tier would be kind of ignorant. This is just my opinions so feel free to kill me for them like you guys always do.

ROB and Roy mains definitely say their characters suck lol.
Source- am a ROB main and Roy second, can confirm, have thought both sucked in all previous iterations and are just now in the version above "mediocre".

 

[Bazkip]

the whole loses invincibility after one ledge grab would stop Jiggs from camping on a non projectile character.

*After five ledge grabs

Jiggs can definitely still camp the ledge, just needs to touch the ground every now and then. So just drop from ledge, jump on stage, aerial, and waveland before retreating to the ledge, which outside of the waveland is something Jiggs does a lot of anyways.

 

[leekslap]

*After five ledge grabs

Jiggs can definitely still camp the ledge, just needs to touch the ground every now and then. So just drop from ledge, jump on stage, aerial, and waveland before retreating to the ledge, which outside of the waveland is something Jiggs does a lot of anyways.

Doesn't it return invincibility after being hit? That way it can only be used for stuff like invincible wavelands onstage instead of Fire Fox stalls all day. Ganon was really good at it because his double jump is small but he can't do it anymore.

 

[shairn]

No, it's five ledge grabs per air time, which can be refreshed by touching the ground.
Which means hax dashing is still legit.

 

[steelguttey]

I'd fix Jiggs by giving her Charizard CC power, Bowser armor on half her moves, Upb changed from Sing to Bounce, and a flammable sword that kills at 20%

To balance her out, she would not be able to shield or instantly shield break/die, her aerials don't use the sword, her throws would be changed to lose any combo or kill potential, and her air mobility/acceleration/changing is cut into half (meaning she can approach you going 1 direction just as fast, but changing directions on a dime would be hella slow)


I actually fixed Jiggs, give me a pile of money to sleep on


Edit: @ steelguttey bro are u in this ****in PM wifi tourney with me?? http://challonge.com/tournamentprom

DON'T THINK U CAN HIDE! (I think I missed the entire thing, despite signing up 2 weeks in advance. ***)

yea im in it :^)

did i miss my match?

EDIT:

olimar needs a new recovery yea, that would help.

**** tethers

edit again:

also, jigglypuff should be a high risk high reward character with extreme payoff. how about giving light super armor while shes charging it, letting her hold the charge, and only let her turn around once when she does it? that would give her a kill option that would make you suicide a whole lot but have a huge payoff.

 

[jtm94]

So lets get to the literal bottom of this.
Olimar is the worst character right now right? Second worst is Mr. Sand Bag?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

People generally agreed Jiggs was bad in 3.02, but in 3.5 that might not be the case. We should really examine what made her bad in 3.02 and whether or not that still hinders her as much in 3.5.

Not being able to deal with broken projectiles and those beyond good recovers.

 

[Soft Serve]

So lets get to the literal bottom of this.
Olimar is the worst character right now right? Second worst is Mr. Sand Bag?

I dont know if Olimar is actually the worst, but I think he is definitely in the category of "why are you even playing this character"

 

[shairn]

Not being able to deal with broken projectiles and those beyond good recovers.

Alright well recoveries got hit relatively hard, so she should be faring better on that front. What projectiles did she struggle with? I assume stuff like Mario's pills and Pit's arrows.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

She struggled with the infinte arsenal of the links as well. There could be like, one or two I could be missing out on.

 

[leekslap]

No, it's five ledge grabs per air time, which can be refreshed by touching the ground.
Which means hax dashing is still legit.

What characters not named Captain Falcon can do the hax dash? Even though I'm good at it, I thought hax dashing doesn't work anymore. I only used it for ramen noodle edgehogs and baiting, which I couldn't do before. For once, being dumb has actually helped me out a little lol. ( I still can't do moonwalking though )

Well I have a pros and cons list on my ancient Jigglypuff guide: http://smashboards.com/threads/she-cant-rest-without-her-bair-a-project-m-jigglypuff-guide.366589/ it just covers the basics of Puff since Jiggs isn't very deep. She was my first main so that's somethin I guess. I was wrong about forward and back throw, and I could have been more informational on her moveset.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar really isnt bad. just really ****ing boring. hes not the worst in the game, hes bottom 10 tho.

worst in the game is prolly still jiggs

 

[shairn]

There's no character in this game that isn't deep. You just haven't dug enough.

I'm pretty sure Fox can hax dash but not 100% sure. You need to be a fast faller with a pretty specific DJ speed/height.

 

[leekslap]

Alright well recoveries got hit relatively hard, so she should be faring better on that front. What projectiles did she struggle with? I assume stuff like Mario's pills and Pit's arrows.

Well she has two hero kicks so Mario's fireballs and Wolf's laser should not be a problem.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Mk, Mario, Marth and Wolf, are just some of the characters that can Hax Dash.

 

[Soft Serve]

Like half the cast can haxdash

 

[shairn]

I have trouble seeing MK, Mario and Marth being able to DJ waveland and be invincible the whole time. Their DJ are pretty slow. I can't be bothered to verify right now though.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Like half the cast can haxdash

To bad no PM players can do it :&

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I have trouble seeing MK, Mario and Marth being able to DJ waveland and be invincible the whole time. Their DJ are pretty slow. I can't be bothered to verify right now though.

I mean, there are giffs of Marth doing it. He really has no frames to work with, after you do the Hax dash tho. @Chesstiger2612 has posted on the MK boards about mk doing the Hax dash. Mk actually has frames to pull **** out. I forgot how much mario has in PM, but doc could like dsmash. i forget

 

[shairn]

Uh Hax dash is DJ waveland back FF regrab ledge right
Or was I mistaken all this time

 

[fabulouspants]

haxdash is a frame perfect waveland from the edge

 

[shairn]

I thought that was called a ledge dash.

 

[Soft Serve]

Sharin you're right, hax dashing is the term given to ledge hop>waveland back to the ledge, called that because Hax was the person most notably used it. Its a ledge dash or ledge waveland or whatever you want to call it, but it goes to the ledge.

 

[Frost | Odds]

It may come as a shock to y'all that Bowser cannot, in fact, haxdash.

And you'd better be thanking God for that.









He can ledgejump -> WL straight down -> invincible(I think?) upB back to ledge though, so there's that

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He can ledgejump -> WL straight down -> invincible(I think?) upB back to ledge though, so there's that

That sounds fun.