Tier List Speculation

[leekslap]

Drift is cool.
I don't see that per say being a reason why he goes up or down on the tier list. I think in 3.2 mk might have been in the 10-15 range.
I think he could ether be there or maybe some where in the top 10.

Maybe it has to do with playstyle. MK players are too aggressive when they should be playing like me and Plup. Patient but not campy like Plank. For some reason, it just makes hard reads easier, and you will be less vulnerable, especially if you have good spacing. And by spacing, I mean more than hitting with the tip of your sword. It also has to do with positioning and realizing that the size of a hitbox is only a part of range.
EDIT: @V Just go with the one you like best. Marth has excellent overall matchups, so does Meta Knight, amd frankly IDK much about Pit. Try to limit yourself to two, and if you go with Meta Knight, you'll be glad ez, Kappy, GuruKid, Lawn Chair, me and other Meta Knight authorities are working on a guide. If you pick Marth, he's one of the most explored characters ever. And if you pick Pit then you'll probably get a lot of crap for it lol

 

[V]

@ leekslap my problem is I enjoy playing them pretty equally and I'm using fox as a secondary. It seems like a lot of Pit's combo setups can be DI'd fairly easily now. People have been saying movement will be important this format and MK's grab range got nerfed which is annoying on top of practically killing dthrow. Maybe Marth will be the most solid option. Would you say they're all top 10-15 range?

 

[leekslap]

@ leekslap my problem is I enjoy playing them pretty equally and I'm using fox as a secondary. It seems like a lot of Pit's combo setups can be DI'd fairly easily now. People have been saying movement will be important this format and MK's grab range got nerfed which is annoying on top of practically killing dthrow. Maybe Marth will be the most solid option. Would you say they're all top 10-15 range?

Well, MK for sure but the top 10 characters in Melee about as viable for tournaments as the top 30 in Project M, so viability isn't something you should worry about. If you want a duo of great characters that cover their bad matchups, MK-Marth is a great combination that a lot of people use. Maybe you are used to 3.0 or Melee where all the top tiers are broken, but for the most part, 3.5 is really balanced. MK's down throw is still his best throw along with back throw. It's kind of like Melee Sheik's down throw in that you get free everything off of it. Dude, Pit was the best character last version and I think he should've been hit harder with nerfs. ZeRo literally won whatever tourney he went to and Armada won freakin Apex even though he doesn't play PM.

 

[Boiko]

Unfortunately, Rob, GnW, and Roy were the only ones who didn't get nerfed
Ness, TL, MK, Ivy, Diddy all got hit in the face

Nah, Ness is the nut.

 

[steelguttey]

Rob
didnt get nerfed

uwotm9

 

[Zx2963]

Nah, Ness is the nut.

Ness got nerfed? He feels pretty powerful to me now

 

[Player -0]

Maybe it has to do with playstyle. MK players are too aggressive when they should be playing like me and Plup. Patient but not campy like Plank. For some reason, it just makes hard reads easier, and you will be less vulnerable, especially if you have good spacing. And by spacing, I mean more than hitting with the tip of your sword. It also has to do with positioning and realizing that the size of a hitbox is only a part of range.
EDIT: @V Just go with the one you like best. Marth has excellent overall matchups, so does Meta Knight, amd frankly IDK much about Pit. Try to limit yourself to two, and if you go with Meta Knight, you'll be glad ez, Kappy, GuruKid, Lawn Chair, me and other Meta Knight authorities are working on a guide. If you pick Marth, he's one of the most explored characters ever. And if you pick Pit then you'll probably get a lot of crap for it lol

Wait Armada doesn't play Project M? Also I'm not sure you can be considered an authority unless you actually take some names/place decently. Not sure if ez. or you fit that bill.

I swear I have a personal vendetta on you, it doesn't help that some of the stuff you say is derpy though.

Edit -

Ness got nerfed? He feels pretty powerful to me now

Yeah, PKF no longer activates on shield among other things, the D-Throw nerf is also pretty big. His F-Tilt got buffed so you can feel happy while punting spacies with it. And PKT2 actually has landing lag now. There's a couple more stuff but you can look at that on the P:M website.

 

[Rᴏb]

G&W technically got nerfed too, but he's gahlike relative to a lot of the cast now imo.

What would you guys say is the worst matchup in the game?

 

[Player -0]

Wouldn't IC's vs. Samus suck?

 

[Soft Serve]

I think fox/puff and fox/ICs are still horrible. Bowser also probably has some of the worst matchups vs anyone with a decent projectile or grab game. They got better in 3.5 I think, but imo 3.02 ness /bowser was unwinnable for bowser.

 

[Spralwers]

SoCal is not that good at PM. At BH4, Westballz didn't even get top 16, Lucky didn't even make it out of 2nd round pools - he lost pretty solidly to a mid level Yoshi. Larry went to sktar 3, didn't even get top 16. He actually tied with one of New England's best players, Wolf. Mango quits out of sets. SoCal overrates themselves on a continuous basis, they'd get rekt by TX, Midwest, MD/VA, Tristate. Aside from Larry, they'd probably go head-to-head with New England

 

[jtm94]

Ness is still good. His stuff was dumb before, how dare down throw not be automatic into large setups at low ‰s and dat down air.

Worst MU GnW vs Roy.

 

[Foo]

Ness is still good. His stuff was dumb before, how dare down throw not be automatic into large setups at low ‰s and dat down air.

Worst MU GnW vs Roy.

Worst for whom? I think I've played that matchup all of once. I don't really see it going to badly for either side.

 

[jtm94]

GnW gets his buns beat by Marth and Roy who is better by extension.

 

[Foo]

GnW gets his buns beat by Marth and Roy who is better by extension.

Maybe so, but Gwuub's downtilt outspaces roy's up-b, letting him gimp bad sweetspots. If roy gets knocked off far enough, nair or fair gimp him very well and roy has absolutely no way to edgeguard gwuubs because of his insane recovery and magnet hands. Game and watch also can "shield pressure" roy decently because all of his moves space out shield grab. Roy also cannot combo him, because of up-b getting out of combos. Then, down air beats out roy's up air.

Not saying game and watch wins the matchup, but... worst matchup in the whole game? I don't see that being true by any stretch of the imagination.

 

[Deleted member]

uwotm9

It's not even salt! I claimed rob was good the day 3.5 came out!

Seriously though, if your character was nearly unchanged from 3.02 to 3.5, they're probably top 10-15 excluding peach/jiggs/ics

 

[Soft Serve]

It's not so much the punish game, gnw should blow everyone up and edgeguard everyone tbh.
Gnw has no hope in neutral against marth/Roys that play properly and just abuse their far better ground game.

 

[steelguttey]

cfalcon vs bowser is a contender

olimar vs marth is worse than gdubs vs marth christ i hate that ****

 

[Deleted member]

Tink vs Jiggs is adorable
What? You want to actually challenge me in neutral? Thats so sweet <3

 

[leekslap]

Wait Armada doesn't play Project M? Also I'm not sure you can be considered an authority unless you actually take some names/place decently. Not sure if ez. or you fit that bill.

I swear I have a personal vendetta on you, it doesn't help that some of the stuff you say is derpy though.

Edit - Yeah, PKF no longer activates on shield among other things, the D-Throw nerf is also pretty big. His F-Tilt got buffed so you can feel happy while punting spacies with it. And PKT2 actually has landing lag now. There's a couple more stuff but you can look at that on the P:M website.

Armada barely plays it is what I meant. Well ez is ok and I'm not 100% sure I'm better, but I meant we both know the character well. It's definetly my wording that makes me look like a dummy to everyone, but Lordling is clearly out to destroy me for whatever little thing I say. I swear he follows me everywhere. It's scary.

I never killed your family #draxmoment

 

[Paradoxium]

@ leekslap i think he just gets amusement out of you because you go around saying that you are super good at this game even though no one knows who you are and you're twelve. Like seriously have you ever been to a tournament before?

 

[Bleck]

the worst matchup is bowser vs anyone

 

[jtm94]

GnW dtilt loses to Roy's UpB no trade unless on really bad recovery.
GnW fair does not out space grab it's incredibly unsafe walk up and grab in end lag.
GnW shield pressure? You mean back air?
UpB doesn't escape anything because I'm in hit stun the entire time. Even if I did due to a bad opponent I am left above them disadvantaged.
Down air loses to Roy up air.

 

[Foo]

eh, I don't really believe any of that because I've personally experienced the opposite. If game and watch fair hits shield, you cannot shield drop walk up and grab >.> That's BS. You could dash dash grab it, but that's true of, well, just about every aerial. Also, I put "shield pressure" in quotes because it's not true pressure. It consists of spaced aerials and frame traps.

Either way, there is no way the marth matchups is easier than the roy one. Game and watch combos better the faster the opponent falls. Game and watch has very good range. Marth thrives on getting tippers, so playing a spacing game plays into Marth's hand. Roy on the other hand, has shorter range, is slower and wants to hit you with the middle of his sword with just about everything but dtilt.

 

[leekslap]

@ leekslap i think he just gets amusement out of you because you go around saying that you are super good at this game even though no one knows who you are and you're twelve. Like seriously have you ever been to a tournament before?

That was like one time when I was a scrub and said I'm a top Falco, and I'll try to go to Tourney Locator or whatever they call it. I'll most likely learn a lot from Infinity. Infinity always seems like a nice person.

 

[DMG]

Go to tourney locator? You instead mean go to one of the weeklies in DFW right?

Also, I wouldn't be surprised if Roy was harder for G^W. Roy gets meatier hits on average, and has a more useful CC choice to work with (CC Dtilt from Roy is usually way better than CC --> anything from Marth). It also means super danger if you try to encroach on his sword range to setup or attempt anything. If you're only trying to max range dtilt or Bacon with G^W, you're probably going to slowly lose to the opponent anyways. Might as well throw in some kind of risk and attempt some kind of reward. Roy ain't having none of that lol.

 

[jtm94]

The way the Marth match up has been determined is that you wavedash in and poke with dtilt try to out space it. Going airborne against either is a death wish. You'd be surprised at the better combos on Marth. Roy isn't quite a fast faller but is enough so that UpB doesn't drag him up enough to get conversions until late percents.
Lol at trying to use bacon against swordies. It used to work kind of because the mass amount of bacon I could cook, but now famine runs rampant.

 

[shairn]

the worst matchup is bowser vs anyone

I tried thinking of a good matchup for Bowser and I couldn't
Somebody help me justify this character

 

[CyberZixx]

ZSS boards are going in right now. They are not pleased.

 

[steelguttey]

olimar boards would be doing the same if people played that character

 

[jtm94]

Do people forget how Bowser was like doing really well in tournaments until everyone was buffed? Hmm, ohwell, not like everyone else was made worse or anything or that super armor is cheese.

 

[Rᴏb]

I was gonna say G&W vs Marth/Roy is the worst matchup in the game, but I thought I was being biased.

Is Bowser still the worst character in the game? I saw that he didn't get redesigned and figured there was no possible way for him to be good with his core kit, but admittedly I'm completely ignorant as to how much better he is.

 

[steelguttey]

bowser gets better the worse your opponent is

 

[Chase Banks]

bowsers best matchup is vs bowser

 

[Strong Badam]

Do people forget how Bowser was like doing really well in tournaments until everyone was buffed? Hmm, ohwell, not like everyone else was made worse or anything or that super armor is cheese.

Bowser was also nerfed in 3.0.

and he doesnt have super armor, it's heavy armor =p

 

[Mean Green]

Worst matchup..
I'm struggling to imagine how Jigglypuff can handle a grab/nair-happy DK

 

[steelguttey]

by getting him offstage?

 

[Deleted member]

Same argument for puff vs tink

 

[Foo]

Same argument for any character against any other character. That's kinda how you win the game. So, how is puff supposed to get DK off stage?

 

[Mean Green]

by getting him offstage?

How? Against a smart/aggressive DK?

Edit: nvm someone asked already.