Tier List Speculation

[Strong Badam]

stuff

Agreed. I will never understand people who feel their character "deserves" to be good, a certain place on the tier list, or even unchanged. It is contradictory to the entire concept of Project M.

& lol @Circle_Breaker linking a set from 13 months ago, which was followed by a PM update where Falco received no nerfs. Which one of us here is really biased and salty, dude? I have not lost to either a Fox or Falco since that tournament, either. If anyone has a right to complain about their "underperforming glass cannon" getting nerfed, it's Squirtle players. That dude's changelist is 10x longer than Falco's one nerf (coupled with an UpB buff) this patch. But yeah keep getting mad even when your character is treated entirely different than every other character in this game when it comes to balance. Makes sense.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Charizard is probably in the same place as he was last patch overall, Solid upper mid.

Three difficult match-ups got easier. Namely Pit, MK, Mewtwo. But certain MUs got harder like Fox, Ivy, anyone with a sword etc.

I say he went down quite a bit. Also I feel like in 3.02 he was secret high tier. Definitely had more potential to take out anybody than he does now.

 

[Hylian]

Three difficult match-ups got easier. Namely Pit, MK, Mewtwo. But certain MUs got harder like Fox, Ivy, anyone with a sword etc.

I say he went down quite a bit. Also I feel like in 3.02 he was secret high tier. Definitely had more potential to take out anybody than he does now.

What did you feel about Zard vs IC's after playing me in the tournament last weekend? What did you think about IC's in general after watching my matches? I never get to hear opinions from people cause I don't go to tournaments often :/.

 

[kevinw0w]

Three difficult match-ups got easier. Namely Pit, MK, Mewtwo. But certain MUs got harder like Fox, Ivy, anyone with a sword etc.

I say he went down quite a bit. Also I feel like in 3.02 he was secret high tier. Definitely had more potential to take out anybody than he does now.

What makes you think the Ivy matchup is harder now for Zard?

 

[MLGF]

You don't have to respect nair's as much, so a lot of his tools to beat characters with range went down the drain.
Charizard went from sleeper space king to meh sadly.

 

[JOE!]

Idk, i feel like he is still good with such fast ground speed and burst range atop a still decent recovery. Once all the dust settles he'll be high mid

 

[Blank Mauser]

What did you feel about Zard vs IC's after playing me in the tournament last weekend? What did you think about IC's in general after watching my matches? I never get to hear opinions from people cause I don't go to tournaments often :/.

I'm not sure because I didn't get to try everything I theory-crafted after the fact. I felt like I respected nana maybe too much and never went for Down/Up-throws I might've been able to get away with. Also didn't use as much Dsmash which could've separated them. It felt like a bad match-up simply because Zard relies very heavily on jab/grab in neutral and both those options were easily shut down.

It would make sense to me if you thought DK was a good match-up for similar reasons. IC's seem okay right now but this is also considering the unfixed hand-offs. I watched Fumbles play Armada at Big House in 3.02 and I felt their neutral wasn't terrible at all. In fact I think they do better against a lot of the less Melee-fied cast. The dual shields are unexplored against PM characters whom a lot don't actually have very advantageous attacks already. Without hand-offs, I can only see them as being okay though.

Also you have your execution down really well for all your characters. o_o

What makes you think the Ivy matchup is harder now for Zard?

Zard's glide no longer has any invul, is negative disjointed, AND can not be angled upon start-up. This made recovering against Ivy's bair go from difficult, to impossible. She lost uthrow to up-B but it doesn't really matter with her air dominance. That coupled with Zard's f-tilt losing head invul really makes the neutral difficult. He has to rely on CC SDI, CC grab and running shield grabs to get past her wall, which are all heavily punished when the Ivy scopes them out. Nair is not really a factor since it was already quite punishable in 3.02. It was just made easier is all.

 

[Hylian]

I'm not sure because I didn't get to try everything I theory-crafted after the fact. I felt like I respected nana maybe too much and never went for Down/Up-throws I might've been able to get away with. Also didn't use as much Dsmash which could've separated them. It felt like a bad match-up simply because Zard relies very heavily on jab/grab in neutral and both those options were easily shut down.

It would make sense to me if you thought DK was a good match-up for similar reasons. IC's seem okay right now but this is also considering the unfixed hand-offs. I watched Fumbles play Armada at Big House in 3.02 and I felt their neutral wasn't terrible at all. In fact I think they do better against a lot of the less Melee-fied cast. The dual shields are unexplored against PM characters whom a lot don't actually have very advantageous attacks already. Without hand-offs, I can only see them as being okay though.

Also you have your execution down really well for all your characters. o_o

IC's will retain hand-offs. Nothing I did to you is going to be patched out. I was doing melee hand-offs which require you to be facing and near the edge of the stage. The bug for the brawl handoffs requires tap jump to be off, and I play with default controls. Your thoughts on those options against IC's are pretty good aside from the throws which I can usually prevent with nana, but I'm also experienced against all of those options and have counterplay for them(for example WD OoS punishes dsmash on block or I just sync squall on reaction). Thanks for the input, I like to learn a lot from my opponents when I play since so many people have so many different play styles, helps keep me from being caught off guard . Also thanks for the execution comment, I make it a point to practice execution often as it's very important for all of my characters.

 

[Rizner]

What did you feel about Zard vs IC's after playing me in the tournament last weekend? What did you think about IC's in general after watching my matches? I never get to hear opinions from people cause I don't go to tournaments often :/.

I'll have to get back to you after seeing/playing against fumbles. I've always thought ICs were fine - they should take a game on their cp, but have a handful of bad matchups which make them rough as a solo character. For the same amount of effort, there are other characters who will provide better results. I think I'd put them mid-lower mid, but not low tier. Will let you know once I get some real exposure against/with them which will probably be late next week or something.

 

[Hylian]

I'll have to get back to you after seeing/playing against fumbles. I've always thought ICs were fine - they should take a game on their cp, but have a handful of bad matchups which make them rough as a solo character. For the same amount of effort, there are other characters who will provide better results. I think I'd put them mid-lower mid, but not low tier. Will let you know once I get some real exposure against/with them which will probably be late next week or something.

I was just interested in his opinion because he had just played me in tournament haha. I don't even know where to place them in 3.5 and I main the character o,o.

 

[Blank Mauser]

IC's will retain hand-offs. Nothing I did to you is going to be patched out. I was doing melee hand-offs which require you to be facing and near the edge of the stage. The bug for the brawl handoffs requires tap jump to be off, and I play with default controls.

Ah I was curious about that.

I feel like there are a lot more characters who are in that category of "You can win, but will most likely need a secondary" this version.

 

[MLGF]

TBH, I felt as if you needed to duel main in 3.0, but now I'm not really finding it needed.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Axe is easily one of my top 5 favorite players and Neon is quite sick.

That said, DFW would beat down SoCal so hard they'd get knocked straight back to PM 2.5

Spoiler

Why yes I do want to see a salty crew battle why do you ask

 

[Rizner]

I was just interested in his opinion because he had just played me in tournament haha. I don't even know where to place them in 3.5 and I main the character o,o.

ahh lol. Have you seen any of Fumbles in 3.02 or 3.5? If so, what do you think of him as a player/his approach? He's in my regiona, dI'd like to get him to the next level but I don't know what to say to him aside from have a better mindset going into games.

 

[Deleted member]

That said, DFW would beat down SoCal so hard they'd get knocked straight back to PM 2.5

Although I'd rather not start a **** talk thread, SoCal is looking pretty fraudulent in 3.5 with how much they're complaining about 3.02 characters being gone
inb4 tagxy comes in here and talks about how socal would destroy TX in every game imaginable

 

[Strong Badam]

Axe is easily one of my top 5 favorite players and Neon is quite sick.

That said, DFW would beat down SoCal so hard they'd get knocked straight back to PM 2.5

Spoiler

Why yes I do want to see a salty crew battle why do you ask

Axe and Neon are both from AZ, not SoCal.

 

[zman804]

What if Texas had a major where AZ's top players and B-Team SoCal players took top 8 at. That'd be crazy huh.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Axe and Neon are both from AZ, not SoCal.

Ohhhh riiiiiight.

Hmm, I'm pretty split on that then. DEHF, iPunchKidz, K9, Venom, Aero, OkamiBW, v/s like ... Sethlon, Lunchable, Oracle, Infinity, Luck, Dakpo? Hard to say. But man would that be an epic crew battle.

 

[Strong Badam]

K9 is also from AZ.

I will be joining the ranks of Texas soon :3

 

[Deleted member]

If I had to pick 6 people for a TX Team It'd be Sethlon, Me, Oracle, Strong Bad, Dakpo, UTDZac
Denti hates pm, awestin is kind of mixed on it. Infinity and luck got nerfed so I'm gonna have to see how they develop with the nerfs

 

[jtm94]

Dakpo is on the side of TX. The rest of the world has no chance.

Diddy is still good Luck will do well regardless. I wanna keep seeing this man Hamyojo come through with Yoshi and crush everyone.

 

[Deleted member]

not too sure how I feel about hamyojo, He's really good but he's not familiar with PM since he's a melee yoshi. He has some new MUs/jank to learn that isn't CC Dsmash vs roy

 

[Anonistry]

Meanwhile here I am in the parts of Illinois that aren't Chicago... my only constant crew for the past couple of years are my friends and a futon in a college dorm...

 

[Hylian]

ahh lol. Have you seen any of Fumbles in 3.02 or 3.5? If so, what do you think of him as a player/his approach? He's in my regiona, dI'd like to get him to the next level but I don't know what to say to him aside from have a better mindset going into games.

I've seen him play yeah. I think he's got really good fundamentals and makes smart choices, but lacks speed and overall technicality. His punish game could be a lot better(aside from the ledge infinites only he seems to be able to do lol) but that is easier to develop than what he's already good at so he's in a pretty good spot I would say.

 

[Boiko]

If you guys are talking about regions, don't forget how stacked tristate is.
Rolex, Emukiller, Frozen, Gallo, Guru, DVD, Boiko, Animal, Aklo, the list goes on.

Although FTR, I think Texas would win any crew battle right now.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I think az the best

 

[Juushichi]

I would bet on Texas over SoCal in PM, to be honest (tho, does M2K count as SoCal now?). I would feel confident betting Texas, actually.

Unpopular opinion, I would bet on Midwest currently over Tristate as well.

Also, it's pretty nice that people are recognizing Fumbles. I really do like his Ice Climbers and I was excited to see him and Carls top-32 at BH4.

More nice since he's basically free to Columbus, maybe we'll get some rep when we send people out somewhere.

Back to tire list speculation:

Peach is strong in this version. Wario is strong, Sheik is strong. Diddy is still strong. I think they're all around the same quality of character. Puff I think is still rather strong, but not as strong as those characters. I would say if those 4 characters were between A and B+ tiers, Puff would sneak into B- something.

I don't think there are any S-tiers in this game right now, but I think I could be proven wrong. A+ might be Fox by himself, though. Could see him at A, too. Actually **** it, let me make another projected list.

 

[CaptinMoses]

I still think Fox is above the rest of the cast right now, simply due to his already developed meta game and not really taking and nerfs from how he was in melee. Falco is catching up but he is so punishable off the stage

 

[Rizner]

I would bet on Texas over SoCal in PM, to be honest (tho, does M2K count as SoCal now?). I would feel confident betting Texas, actually.

Unpopular opinion, I would bet on Midwest currently over Tristate as well.

Also, it's pretty nice that people are recognizing Fumbles. I really do like his Ice Climbers and I was excited to see him and Carls top-32 at BH4.

More nice since he's basically free to Columbus, maybe we'll get some rep when we send people out somewhere.

Back to tire list speculation:

Peach is strong in this version. Wario is strong, Sheik is strong. Diddy is still strong. I think they're all around the same quality of character. Puff I think is still rather strong, but not as strong as those characters. I would say if those 4 characters were between A and B+ tiers, Puff would sneak into B- something.

I don't think there are any S-tiers in this game right now, but I think I could be proven wrong. A+ might be Fox by himself, though. Could see him at A, too. Actually **** it, let me make another projected list.

LOL does he really lose to all of columbus? I thought it was mostly just drephen and hanky. Also I want to play you all since this 3.5 stuff came out. I decided not to go last weekend b/c I had a super early flight which I might miss if out too late, which I ended up missing anyways b/c scrub status. But yeah, I'm back in Ohio on the 1st and will be looking for something we can all get to.

edit: also, yeah Ohio > Texas. lmk
I'd say Arizona might be best region at the moment.

I've seen him play yeah. I think he's got really good fundamentals and makes smart choices, but lacks speed and overall technicality. His punish game could be a lot better(aside from the ledge infinites only he seems to be able to do lol) but that is easier to develop than what he's already good at so he's in a pretty good spot I would say.

ok, cool. I know when 3.02 came out he super wen tinto the lab to figure out those infinites and for the first couple weekly's he would come in with a small notebook for each character for where and when and how to start and do them. Within like 3 weeks he was able to pull it off semi-consistently in matches against the more familiar matchups. You should have seen Heysuess's reaction when fumbles got him in one -- was very funny. Seems like many areas aren't aware that it's possible

 

[Deleted member]

tier list speculation, where every character is both good and bad and no one actually knows anything. best thread.

 

[Deleted member]

edit: also, yeah Ohio > Texas. lmk

Who is in ohio?

 

[Rizner]

Who is in ohio?

Lots of things. Mostly board games. It's the worst.

oh man totally read that as what is in ohio, not who.

I'd say Drephen, Hanky, Fizzle, Fumbles, myself, Juusichi, soulpech.

Lots of randoms who will take games they have no business winning. Especially drephen. Stupid drephen.

 

[Anonistry]

Lots of things. Mostly board games. It's the worst.

oh man totally read that as what is in ohio, not who.

I'd say Drephen, Hanky, Fizzle, Fumbles, myself, Juusichi, soulpech.

Lots of randoms who will take games they have no business winning. Especially drephen. Stupid drephen.

Oooh snap?

 

[xFumbles]

Just saw everyone talking about me here! Really cool ICs can get some recognition now. I haven't done much 3.5 IC stuff yet. They feel super weird now...I'd really like to talk to Hylian about the character directly sometime :3

 

[Juushichi]

If I were to tier off players in Ohio:
A: HankyPanky, VaNz (when here), Carls, Fizzle, Fumbles, Abu, Drephen, Freze, PChow
B: SoulPech, JT, DocX, Juushichi, Rizner, SneakyTako, Papa, DBSammy, Village Mascot, Suyon, Shenanigans, Master WGS, Ola, Umbra, XYK

B could be filtered/sorted better, but I think our best players are correct. People are not sorted within tiers.

 

[Sinz]

I know one thing for sure.

I wouldn't bet on Utah.

Literally worst state at smash.

 

[Rizner]

If I were to tier off players in Ohio:
A: HankyPanky, VaNz (when here), Carls, Fizzle, Fumbles, Abu, Drephen, Freze, PChow
B: SoulPech, JT, DocX, Juushichi, Rizner, SneakyTako, Papa, DBSammy, Village Mascot, Suyon, Shenanigans, Master WGS, Ola, Umbra, XYK

B could be filtered/sorted better, but I think our best players are correct. People are not sorted within tiers.

I don't think I've seen feze, vanz or pchow play, but this seems about right. I'd probably trust your judgements more than my own with this stuff - you have more experience w/ everyone.

 

[steelguttey]

east coast=beast coast thats all i know

@ Boiko prolly knows more about ny players than me so ima trust him on the trash talk

 

[Juushichi]

Freze is a DK from Ohio University who nearly beat lordy who got 33rd and got 49th at BH4. Pchow has sorta been around, won the 1st or 2nd PMS in MD/VA, is PRed from last season. VaNz is just pretty strong.

Oh, about regional discussion: I think that AZ is stronger than SoCal and would be more interested in seeing TX vs AZ than SoCal vs TX.

I wonder if JaimeHR is more AZ than SoCal. Apparently he takes money from both and is from Mexico, but I've seen him play against AZ more often.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

east coast=beast coast thats all i know

@ Boiko prolly knows more about ny players than me so ima trust him on the trash talk

Who are you suppose to main now
Little man