Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

Ivysaur now loses neutral significantly to characters with great dash dance/mobility. She also has a horrible recovery.
Marth vs. Ivy is delicious now, all you have to do is dash dance outside of her range and fair her for side b and/or other stupid options. You even get to edge guard her pretty heavily!

 

[DrinkingFood]

Fox loses to ROB 4-6 maybe 45-55
Primarily because dsmash isn't easily escapable for fox by holding up, like it is for every other character, dsmash sets up for grab/combo with bad DI and an advantaged tech chase with good DI, and it also covers 3/4 knockdown options. Also ROB can mitigate lasers really well with gyro. Fox mostly just has to approach with dair except at high percents. Uthrow uair doesn't work on ROB, so out of a drillshine wavedash his options are a little more limited. ROB punishes Fox both easily and effectively with a fair number of good set-ups; so while they go pretty even in neutral, ROB being harder to punish without a good set-up probably tips it in ROB's favor.
At an underdeveloped level it probably seems much worse for fox.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Why is everyone freaking out about rob, what did I miss?

 

[Deleted member]

I don't really know if I'd say rob beats fox, I think oracle explained to me once that rob loses neutral vs them? Iunno I'm not a rob guy

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why is everyone freaking out about rob, what did I miss?

Me

 

[Frost | Odds]

If the patch didn't change it, ROB has a vicious CG on spacies. He also gimps them way more easily than puff due to the disjoint on his fair and the strength of his dair against linear recoveries, and the ridiculous option coverage via his laser.

What am I missing, @ DrinkingFood ?

 

[Ripple]

laser snipes on up-b

 

[DrinkingFood]

Laser is better for option covering jump into side-b. If they up-b you go out and smack them. If they shine stall before DJ to avoid getting laser sniped, I think you can still cover it due to laser's short endlag but i haven't explored that enough

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Me

Lol ok...one person doing good with a character the first couple of weeks of release doesn't rocket them into high tier. You're a good player and everything, that's been a thing for a while, but until there other robs that actually do stuff, I'm not buying it.

 

[Mystic-]

I'm not nearly as knowledgeable as a lot of people here but I really feel that Falcon's match up spread is so much better than it was in melee. Like Sheik/Fox/Falco/Puff just suck so much ass for Falcon in melee (or maybe I just suck ass LOL) but the new map list and small buffs to Falcon seem to make him legitimately high tier in this game. I'd love for someone to explain to me why I'm wrong (since there's a decent chance that I am) but this is the first iteration of any smash game since 64 that Falcon has felt so....good. Thoughts on his position in the game?

 

[Ripple]

kirkQ's ROB knocked Kels' Fox into losers at EXP this saturday. again. for the 6th time.

and then I knocked him out of the tournament

 

[Oracle]

Yeah rob still loses neutral because lasers, and robs defense is so awful a good fox rushdown will annihilate him. Its really hard for the fox player because rob can cg and gimp really well, but fox still barely wins if he plays it right. Probably 55-45, its not a big margon

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Well that's a start, I'd like to see vids of this if possible, of either of the rob players mentioned. Maybe if I could actually see it, I could better understand what all the hype is about.

 

[Oracle]

Main reason is because me and df got top 2 at the monthly last saturday, both going all rob lol

 

[Soupchicken]

People complaining about Ganon? This is new to me.

The MU was considered favourable for Puff in Melee and almost everything you're complaining about is exactly the same as Melee. The big difference from Melee from what you're saying being Flame Choke but imo that's really not that much of a game changer. It shouldn't be too difficult for Jiggs to hit him out of it with good spacing. All your aerials come out faster than fair, should again be dead easy to hit him out of it. His grab range is atrocious, weaving should make it very difficult for Ganon to grab you. Sword taunt as a whiffed rest punish is more or less the same as punishing it with Warlock Punch.

Ganon's buffs will definitely improve this MU for him, it's probably even now or maybe a bit in his favour, but definitely nowhere near unwinnable for Jiggs. Yeah Ganon kills you really hard, but you said it yourself, you do the same right back. It's a volatile matchup, that's just kinda how Jiggs rolls(out

)

You're right in that it's very similar to melee. I just watched some VODS of Kage vs. Hbox. I noticed two things: I'm way worse than Hbox (but I already knew that) and B) He gets in ganon's face off-stage.

I think the recovery changes are massive in this matchup. It sounds easy in theory to hit him out of flame choke but it feels like he goes right through anything other than a perfectly spaced bair. Flame choke grabbing ledges + float give him some new options for mixing up his recovery that make it hard to predict where to be. I'm having a really hard time killing him under 130% or so without landing a fsmash or rest.

Of course I still have a lot of room to get better so you're probably right. I'll keep trying. Thanks for the input.

 

[Bazkip]

You're right in that it's very similar to melee. I just watched some VODS of Kage vs. Hbox. I noticed two things: I'm way worse than Hbox (but I already knew that) and B) He gets in ganon's face off-stage.

I think the recovery changes are massive in this matchup. It sounds easy in theory to hit him out of flame choke but it feels like he goes right through anything other than a perfectly spaced bair. Flame choke grabbing ledges + float give him some new options for mixing up his recovery that make it hard to predict where to be. I'm having a really hard time killing him under 130% or so without landing a fsmash or rest.

Of course I still have a lot of room to get better so you're probably right. I'll keep trying. Thanks for the input.

Yeah hitting him out of Flame Choke is likely harder than I made it out to be, but still definitely doable. The recovery changes might make things a little trickier but his options are still relatively slow, so if you do it like Hbox and rush them down offstage you should be able to cover any attempts before they get anywhere.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ivysaur now loses neutral significantly to characters with great dash dance/mobility. She also has a horrible recovery.
Marth vs. Ivy is delicious now, all you have to do is dash dance outside of her range and fair her for side b and/or other stupid options. You even get to edge guard her pretty heavily!

I tested 3.02 Ivy's tether in debug mode and compared it to 3.5. From what I've seen if you drift towards the ledge you actually have the same amount if not less frames to punish Ivy since she can fast fall to it now. Around 27-30 either way. Yeah she can't cancel it anymore, and she risks getting dair'ed if she drifts towards the ledge every time so there is more counterplay for sure. But I wouldn't say her recovery is necessarily "horrible" when you get mostly the same punishment from a lot of characters. Not to mention the 3.5 environment lets her edgegaurd everyone else amazingly. I'm sure a lot of characters wish they could snap to the ledge from a mile away and refresh invul super fast. Her recovery isn't even a terrible trade-off for the fact that she gets to do that.

 

[kaizo13]

$100 MM starts in 5 min
http://www.twitch.tv/ipunchkidsz

the K9 salt is real #noskill

 

[leekslap]

PREPARE TO HAVE YOUR MINDS BLOWN

http://smashboards.com/threads/dimensional-cape-drift.378879/

#metaknightstilltoptier

Makes R.O.B. look like crap.

 

[Player -0]

Just loooool. Bout to time out people with this. Xanadu peeps rage pls

 

[MLGF]

I mean, what would Smash be without some unintentional tech?
Sounds like fun.

 

[Stalled]

It was said later in the thread that pmdt is planning to remove it like they are the IC infinite. It looks really cool, and you seem to be vulnerable while actually moving, though I'm not 100% clear on how it works, I could see it being balanced, or not.

fox loses to DDD

Does he?

 

[Ogopogo]

Marth vs. Ivy is delicious now, all you have to do is dash dance outside of her range and fair her for side b and/or other stupid options. You even get to edge guard her pretty heavily!

It was always delicious, you can do so much to Ivy off of fthrow. Now it's even harder I think Marth is really good this patch. He's such a, as Pikachad might put it, Smash Bros character. Also shoutouts to people who think razor leaf is safe on shield

 

[Strong Badam]

the best character in the game is wario right now.

Ahhh yes. This brings back good memories.
It sure has been a while since I've traveled 8+ hours somewhere, gotten top 3 (but not won) and had people from that region overrate my character.

 

[Bleck]

I was just thinking about how that tech actually looks really interesting and haha of course they're taking it out

 

[Foo]

Imagine if nintendo took out every unintended mechanic from melee... lol.





Oh wait, that already exists. Brawl and smash 4...

 

[Blank Mauser]

On the bright side, the fact that MK currently goes into special fall after ledge canceling IDC will most likely be fixed.

 

[leekslap]

Imagine if nintendo took out every unintended mechanic from melee... lol.





Oh wait, that already exists. Brawl and smash 4...

Puff would be top tier along with Sheik, Peach, and Young Link.

#noskill

 

[mimgrim]

Puff would be top tier along with Sheik, Peach, and Young Link.

#noskill

I'm not so sure on Peach. If we are going on the taking out the unintended mechanics thing, then Float Cancel would be gone.

 

[leekslap]

I'm not so sure on Peach. If we are going on the taking out the unintended mechanics thing, then Float Cancel would be gone.

You'd use float in a safer way so that you float out your aerial's lag.

 

[Soft Serve]

Softie's updated Tire Lust: now with more lusting and less tires

Spoiler: no order inside tiers

Top Tier: these guys are either really good, still pretty silly, or are far and above the best at what their gameplan is.

High tier: these guys are really good, and can be silly or totally honest characters, but have some flaws that make them lose important matchups, or that stop them from being toxic/broken.

Mid Tier: these guys are also really good, but larger flaws or horrible MU's with characters in the higher tiers.

Low Tier: These four still just get out shined in their field of expertise by other characters that dont have as many problems. Why play Jiggs when you can play Fat Mario or Jiggs With Vines? Why play Ganon when you can play Sword Ganon? Why play Zelda at all?

Bottom Tier: Olimar joins Ice climbers in bottom tier now, imo. He was a sleeper OP in 3.02 that struggled vs certain characters and wasn't popular, so he got nerfed to **** in 3.5, and lost most of his punish game, his anti-air game, his neutral game, and he has the worst recovery in the game. LOOK HOW SAD THIS IS

 

[leekslap]

Softie's updated Tire Lust: now with more lusting and less tires

Spoiler: no order inside tiers

Top Tier: these guys are either really good, still pretty silly, or are far and above the best at what their gameplan is.

High tier: these guys are really good, and can be silly or totally honest characters, but have some flaws that make them lose important matchups, or that stop them from being toxic.

Mid Tier: these guys are also really good, but larger flaws or horrible MU's with characters in the higher tiers.

Low Tier: These four still just get out shined in their field of expertise by other characters that dont have as many problems. Why play Jiggs when you can play Fat Mario or Jiggs With Vines? Why play Ganon when you can play Sword Ganon? Why play Zelda at all?

Bottom Tier: Olimar joins Ice climbers in bottom tier now, imo. He was a sleeper OP in 3.02 that struggled vs certain characters and wasn't popular, so he got nerfed to **** in 3.5, and lost most of his punish game, his anti-air game, his neutral game, and he has the worst recovery in the game. LOOK HOW SAD THIS IS

Squirtle and Ike suck donkey balls, Ganon and Mario are high tier withour question, and Falcon is mid tier. Pretty good general idea of how the game is tiered other than what I said.

 

[Deleted member]

You're a fraud

you're going to attack a veteran, named player that also contributes to the project... and you've been here for a year. regardless of what hylian says, he probably has very good reasons to have those opinions and you'd be better off learning from him. chill your jets.

 

[Soft Serve]

Squirtle and Ike suck donkey balls, Ganon and Mario are high tier withour question, and Falcon is mid tier. Pretty good general idea of how the game is tiered other than what I said.

Squirtle is still broken, Ganon is still booty, Ike does everything Ganon wants to do, but better. And I put Falcon in mid tier, and Mario in high tier lol.

 

[MLGF]

Ike is trash?
OMFG lol.

 

[mimgrim]

Squirtle and Ike suck donkey balls

I laughed

Ganon high tier withour question

Stop it. you're killing me.

We got ourselves a comedian here.

 

[Choice Scarf]

I'm going to have to go full noob here, but I think I need a general purpose ELI5 for Ice Climbers. Their thing is that there are two of them, but what about that has made them bad in PM when they're good in other games? All I really know about them is the crazy hype desync stuff you can do with them (and maybe something about wobbling not affecting their tier position in Melee, I don't know).

So what is wrong with them in PM? Do their handoffs not work? Is their design good or bad? Or is there some underlying flaw that's holding them back in both competition and popularity?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Softie's updated Tire Lust: now with more lusting and less tires

Spoiler: no order inside tiers

Top Tier: these guys are either really good, still pretty silly, or are far and above the best at what their gameplan is.

You wot?

 

[Deleted member]

I'm going to have to go full noob here, but I think I need a general purpose ELI5 for Ice Climbers. Their thing is that there are two of them, but what about that has made them bad in PM when they're good in other games? All I really know about them is the crazy hype desync stuff you can do with them (and maybe something about wobbling not affecting their tier position in Melee, I don't know).

So what is wrong with them in PM? Do their handoffs not work? Is their design good or bad? Or is there some underlying flaw that's holding them back in both competition and popularity?

so far my theory is that people still want ICs to be "chaingrabs: the character" instead of seeing what they can actually do. imo they're fine

this is why sheik sucked for the last year apparently even though she was fantastic

 

[Juushichi]

Umbreon, why do you have a picture of Oracle as your avatar?

More to the point, Sheik is good and Ice Climbers are probably fine. People saying Ike is trash or whatever are crazy. Also, I dunno what Ripple is on saying that Wario is the best character in the game. Can you explain this, Rip?