Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I was very confused about people were protesting Soft Serve's placement of Ike in high tier as trash, then I saw the "Show Ignored Content" button.

Lmao leekslap is a 12 year old with no idea how the game works, he made a thread on the Samus forums being all "SAMUS IS OP AND TOP TIER AND MY NEW MAIN OMG" then dropped her after 1 game. He has no credibility whatsoever.

 

[Deleted member]

if you had a picture of oracle with his murder face, you'd have him as your avatar too.

i'm pretty sure i'm the biggest oracle fan ever. the man just wins a lot.

 

[~Dad~]

Softie's updated Tire Lust: now with more lusting and less tires

Spoiler: no order inside tiers

Top Tier: these guys are either really good, still pretty silly, or are far and above the best at what their gameplan is.

High tier: these guys are really good, and can be silly or totally honest characters, but have some flaws that make them lose important matchups, or that stop them from being toxic/broken.

Mid Tier: these guys are also really good, but larger flaws or horrible MU's with characters in the higher tiers.

Low Tier: These four still just get out shined in their field of expertise by other characters that dont have as many problems. Why play Jiggs when you can play Fat Mario or Jiggs With Vines? Why play Ganon when you can play Sword Ganon? Why play Zelda at all?

Bottom Tier: Olimar joins Ice climbers in bottom tier now, imo. He was a sleeper OP in 3.02 that struggled vs certain characters and wasn't popular, so he got nerfed to **** in 3.5, and lost most of his punish game, his anti-air game, his neutral game, and he has the worst recovery in the game. LOOK HOW SAD THIS IS

Squirtman is not good please stop being silly Softie.

 

[shairn]

Squirtle is really good like what

 

[~Dad~]

Squirtle is really good like what

Except he's pretty average. There's no way he's on the level of fox lmao.

 

[leekslap]

Was being sarcastic guys -_- Ganon's clearly not that good.

I was very confused about people were protesting Soft Serve's placement of Ike in high tier as trash, then I saw the "Show Ignored Content" button.

Lmao leekslap is a 12 year old with no idea how the game works, he made a thread on the Samus forums being all "SAMUS IS OP AND TOP TIER AND MY NEW MAIN OMG" then dropped her after 1 game. He has no credibility whatsoever.

Ouch. That's it! Sticking to Meta Knight forums, since it doesn't seem I'm welcome anywhere else. Thanks for being so nice guys! And I have a pretty good idea of how the game works. I really want to say "at least I'm not a grown man", but it's just going too far and I'd probably get even MORE hate for it. Yay! You guys have no idea how sad you made me by liking his post

 

[Bleck]

Except he's pretty average. There's no way he's on the level of fox lmao.

sounds like you might be bad at squirtle son

 

[~Dad~]

sounds like you might be bad at squirtle son

Everybody is bad at Squirtle man.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Seriously though squirtle is terrible. Everything he does, even Pikachu does better.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

incoming salt:

wtf is with the continuous falco nerfs? I played some games yesterday with a competent fox. falco was already mid-tier in PM and his dair gets nerfed and nerfed again to the point that his MU with fox has gone from almost even to fox advantage. you can say "oh no now you have to be precise with his dair!" all you want but what the nerf really means is a reduction of possible followups across the board against an opponent with good DI. so why the nerf to the underperforming glass cannon who gets 0-death'd by the entire cast who have been specifically given the tools to do so?

actually I don't even have to ask why

 

[kaizo13]

*Warning graphic content*

http://youtu.be/ilnSnMjUsdI

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

The dair nerf ain't shet. Falco ain't beatting that Fox cause your Falco weak.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

The dair nerf ain't shet. Falco ain't beatting that Fox cause your Falco weak.

too bad I'm not lead designer or I could just nerf him

 

[Ripple]

dair gets nerfed and nerfed again

you mean once?

mid tier

oh, you mean a perfectly acceptable character?

his fox MU...

why is he entitled to do well against fox?

a reduction of possible followups across the board against an opponent with good DI

it has the same angle. follow ups are the same. a reduction in strength simply turns it into a combo move at later % rather than a kill move

why nerf an underperforming glass cannon

why was DDD nerfed?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

the frame window for the spike is smaller than PAL dair

 

[Deleted member]

My smashboards icon isn't oracle, its hoodie tiara

illuminati confirmed

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

*Warning graphic content*

http://youtu.be/ilnSnMjUsdI

...

*adds to porn folder*

 

[MLGF]

Falco didn't lose any of his combos, it just makes it so that you have to be more conscious and careful with Dair.
This has been the case with a lot of PM characters this patch, Falco doesn't need to break norms.

 

[Zx2963]

Falco doesn't seemed nerfed to me :\, people just need to get better at him. We should really complain about Marth's reduced dash grab...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Falco doesn't seemed nerfed to me :\, people just need to get better at him. We should really complain about Marth's reduced dash grab...

Wow
So nerf
Much weak
Very low tier

 

[MLGF]

Why aren't you JC Grabbing in almost every matchup anyways?

 

[Zx2963]

Guess my sarcasm was not strong enough

EDIT: Though what was the point of the nerf?

 

[Rᴏb]

Does anyone else think some recoveries are still dumb or

 

[Zx2963]

Does anyone else think some recoveries are still dumb or

Yep, DDD and Snake

 

[Rᴏb]

Yep, DDD and Snake

I- I think this is the first time I've ever agreed with anything you've ever said.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yep, DDD and Snake

You mean dead and dead-er?

Unless for Snake you mean his grenade and cypher after Up-B, but that doesn't break it or anything given the damage he takes, how it doesn't refresh his jump and Cypher decays now, so even after blowing himself up Snake has a phenominally ****ty Up-B.

Dedede's recovery has distance. That's pretty much it. He is usually guaranteed to recover from high, but then so are most multijump characters. His mixup potential isn't great, nor is his pretty predictable Up-B arc that is hard to sweetspot.

Recoveries are fine, stop trying to make this game *exactly* like the Melee top 8. *It is beginning to get annoying*.

 

[Ripple]

DDD's up-b is pretty bad. but people see it so infrequestly because he should never really have to use it that they don't bother trying to hit it. the following is how all DDD's should recover

www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591842373?t=35m

(you can read @ Oro?! 's lips in the backround. lol)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

DDD's up-b is pretty bad. but people see it so infrequestly because he should never really have to use it that they don't bother trying to hit it. the following is how all DDD's should recover

www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/591842373?t=35m

(you can read @ Oro?! 's lips in the backround. lol)

God forbid a character centered on offstage kills has a strong recovery.

 

[Oro?!]

I was surprised you lived from strong bair at 180%, not anything with waddle dashing. It was more like "oh my god dreamland and DDD, why would anyone allow this."

 

[Laudandus]

From what I've experienced Sheik seems insanely good in 3.5, between being able to edge guard most things (that I've played against?) and the old ability to turn around by crouching and running the other way almost instantly whenever she wants.

 

[mimgrim]

Does anyone else think some recoveries are still dumb or

Not really. But then again I didn't really have any complaints about recoveries in 3.02 and thought people complaining about them were babies. So i'm probably not the best to ask.

 

[Rᴏb]

Recoveries are fine, stop trying to make this game *exactly* like the Melee top 8. *It is beginning to get annoying*.

People were saying things like this before the design blogpost came out too, now look where we are. @ mimgrim 's statement backs up this point. I don't want this game to be exactly like the Melee top 8, I just want this game to have the least amount of bull**** possible. There's only like, 9 or 10 characters that I feel like still have bull**** recoveries, or at least bull**** aspects to them.

I think DDD is a really interesting and well designed character. His neutral game is decent, he's got great range, but neither of those are his best feature, at least not by themselves. Him being able to get characters off the stage so well and continue to harass them until they get gimped is so fun to me and feels amazing- he's like Jigglypuff if she were actually fun to play. Despite having such strength in this regard, he has the clear cut weakness of being fat, which I'm sure you know means he gets comboed like hell. His relatively high fall speed certainly doesn't help either.

His recovery feels like too much though. I'm fine with him having a good one, but I think that his weight + his fall speed + waddledashing + his jumps make his recovery overbearing in my eyes. His upb isn't anything special, but if he gets hit during it, it allows him the chance be put in a situation where he is more likely to recover (unless he gets spiked, or something). This situation is typically the one where he has to recover from high which is totally free for him even without his jumps simply because of waddledashing. I feel like this was a missed opportunity for giving DDD a more nuanced approach for recovering from high compared to every other character with multiple jumps, since he has 3 jumps and no glide. I would definitely consider waddledashing to be a nuanced form of recovery, but I also feel like it is simply too good and falls into the category of "burst movement" which doesn't really follow the PMDT's current design philosophies. I wish I could suggest something for DDD in lieu of waddledashing that could imitate it's interesting onstage applications, but I'm drawing a blank.

And just to clarify, there isn't anything inherently wrong with DDD's recovery, I just feel like it could be designed better. I'd give my initial thoughts on Snake's recovery as well, but I think I need to get a better understanding of it before I give my opinion.

 

[Zx2963]

Let's admit, who wouldn't be salty seeing fat ass DDD recover at 200%?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Let's admit, who wouldn't be salty seeing fat *** DDD recover at 200%?

DDD is so fat, when he goes off stage, he should just drop like Falco using Kirby's down B

 

[JOE!]

Charizard is probably in the same place as he was last patch overall, Solid upper mid.

 

[MudkipUniverse]

I feel that they should change up Roy and Tink's combos a bit, and maaaybe zss. Make them less easy to combo into. Though I love their players.

other then that, what the crap was with a NERF to Olimar...

SoCal wrecking DFW? LOOOOOOOOL

DFW Is probably the best region for Project M.

 

[MagnesD3]

Ddd needs buffs not nerfs.

 

[Soft Serve]

Lol, socal is the best region. It's not arguable.

 

[Foo]

I feel that they should change up Roy and Tink's combos a bit, and maaaybe zss. Make them less easy to combo into. Though I love their players.

other then that, what the crap was with a NERF to Olimar...

SoCal wrecking DFW? LOOOOOOOOL

DFW Is probably the best region for Project M.

ZSS combos have gotten nerfed too much already pls stop. She SHOULD be able to combo well at lower/mid%s but not be able to convert kills out of them, and not combo as well at higher%s. In 3.0, she was that character that could combo super well, but couldn't kill you out of combos and didn't even have good kill moves to throw out raw. (except bair, but that was readable because you had to face away).

Now, her nair doesn't combo at all at lower/mid%s but combos better at higher %s and leads to guaranteed fair. I'm sorry, but even the suggestion removing what small remaining part of what's fun about ZSS makes my butthole clench.

 

[Deleted member]

i mean i'd be the first to bet on texas