Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

either you really want a money match, or hylian stole your candy when you were a child

I mean, he says the character is amazing. He also said they have a lot of great things that have worked on a buncha top players. You seen those top players getting worked by him yet? No? Me ether.

 

[mimgrim]

polar bear costume ICs are top tier cuteness though. Can't deny that.

 

[Frost | Odds]

the best character in the game is wario right now.

I hope you're not serious. He loses to Fox almost as badly as Jiggs does.

 

[trash?]

I mean, he says the character is amazing. He also said they have a lot of great things that have worked on a buncha top players. You seen those top players getting worked by him yet? No? Me ether.

that didn't answer my ponderings

you are very heated about a man playing a character you don't like

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

that didn't answer my ponderings

you are very heated about a man playing a character you don't like

im heated
cuz
he says character is amazing
he cant/wont show the character being amazing

repeat from im heated

 

[Mystic-]

I really wanna see some PM IC play though. They seem like the most interesting character(s) in the game and I'd love to see any decent PM IC play

 

[Hylian]

I had my candy stolen when I was a child

Do you actually like..go to tournaments? Lets see some results threads if you do. I'm not johning about not having "videos"(even though I have over 100 matches of my IC's online for your viewing pleasure), I just find it laughable that you are clinging on to me not beating top players as if that is the only justifiable criteria for anything I'm saying. I could go find some videos of me beating Metroid or Strong Bad in friendlies with ICs(so could you), but I don't really care to because there is no point in trying to convince someone who's just going to call me a fraud. You have not once provided actual reasons why IC's are bad in neutral, and when I provide logical reasons why they are great you just ignore them and ask for videos. I'm sorry you feel the need to act so childish and have the inability to conceive things without actually seeing them.

I mean, he says the character is amazing. He also said they have a lot of great things that have worked on a buncha top players. You seen those top players getting worked by him yet? No? Me ether.

Mmm go find one post on the entirety of the internet of me saying IC's are amazing, or even a good character. You won't be able to because I've never said such a thing. When you're making up things in your head about others you might have a problem. I think IC's are the worst character in 3.02 and don't really know where they stand in 3.5 yet. I'm sorry I live in missouri and don't have access to a variety of top players to provide video footage against, please stop acting like a child about it.

I really wanna see some PM IC play though. They seem like the most interesting character(s) in the game and I'd love to see any decent PM IC play

Here's some day 1 3.5 footage:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=34m32s (vs Tmacc, Bowser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=31m23s (vs Tmacc, Bowser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=23m32s (vs Tmacc, Bowser)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=37m22s (vs Tmacc, MK)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlpHL0N7ta8&t=15m54s (vs Tmacc, Ness)

 

[Ripple]

I hope you're not serious. He loses to Fox almost as badly as Jiggs does.

umm, no. he does much better than puff does against fox. and puff vs fox probably isn't even that bad. 6-4 at worst. AT WORST.

even if he does lose to fox, that does change the fact that fox probably does overall worse against the cast than wario does.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah wario can fart on fox puff can only take a nap. Wario is way more crass

 

[Boiko]

Yo, I played some Ness on WiFi the other day, I think he does pretty well in neutral, his baiting power from the air is pretty awesome. Get smacked from it and die though. I feel like a lot of people overrate Ness' recovery, it's good but just space well, don't challenge for the first 7 frames, and laugh as Falco Dair sends Ness into the blastzone.

Ness' recovery it utter trash. One of the worst in the game. If he's forced to recover below the ledge, bye Ness.

 

[BTmoney]

can anyone name any top kirby (besides chudat) and toon link players?

 

[Frost | Odds]

and puff vs fox probably isn't even that bad. 6-4 at worst. AT WORST.

Just lost most of my considerable respect for you. I thought you had a clue. :/

 

[Player -0]

Ness' recovery isn't trash, I would consider it mediocre.

 

[Beorn]

Just lost most of my considerable respect for you. I thought you had a clue. :/

Wario is really ****ing good dude. I don't believe that he is top tier, but in 3.5 he is definitely one of the best. More people need to realize he's amazing. I play a good wario pretty often and It always surprise me to see people stick him in mid tier. I feel like it's because there are so many marths out there. Marth being one of his few losing matchups. I play my link against Mr. Pickles Wario quite a lot and I will never understand how the general consensus is that link wins wario doesn't have to respect Link at all. Just seems like there is a lot of miss information about characters right now because everyone is having to adjust.

 

[Soupchicken]

I'm not sure how I feel about Ganon overall, but against Puff at least he's top-tier. Yes I'm hella salty. I know this isn't the right place for this, but allow me to explain why I'm so pissed.

As you all know, Puff's game is all about aerial pokes. Ganon is really hard to poke. His jab and ftilt make it hard to approach from the front, especially with Puff's non-existant ground game. His aerials all trade favorably and cover literally every angle of approach. In particular, fair not only outranges your bair but it flat out beats it, usually killing you. You have to be pin-point precise with your poke game or you will be punished hard, and that is an understatement.

His down-throw leads to a guaranteed bair/up-air/fair (depending on DI & percentage but one option is always available) at < 140%, which means a virtually guaranteed kill when grabbed > 65%. If you get past his fairs, bairs, ftilts, and jabs you better do something with the opportunity because you won't be sitting close to him very long before being jabbed away or grabbed. In short, he absolutely demolishes Puff once he gets his hands on her. Even when you aren't killed immediately, getting back on stage is pretty difficult. The fact that his Fair wins every trade means you can't sit just off-stage throwing out aerials until an opening appears. He will come for you and he will kill you. If you roll on you will get stomped to death. In fact if he ever guesses right on a tech-read or roll you will get stomped to death. If you jump from the ledge you will get a fair/bair to the face. If you pound he'll just wavedash or shorthop back into a fair and destroy you. I can't find anything more reliable than air-dodging onto the stage and even that gets predictable. Normally I'd be okay with being stuck off-stage but since I can't reliably gimp him and his moves beat mine my off-stage options are limited. Even when you do get on, all it takes is a ftilt or jab to knock you back off and reset the situation.

On top of that, gimping Ganon's recovery is suprisingly hard. His side-b makes Puff's signature off-stage Fair/Bair chains pretty useless unless you're willing to trade stocks. This means Ganon can generally get close to the stage at which point he's pretty safe as Puff can't go after him below the stage due to her poor vertical recovery. If he comes in level with the stage he'll just side-b you if you approach. In any case, his recovery is not easy for Puff to deal with relative to other matchups I play. I try baiting out side-bs but the mind-game is pretty ganon favored as he can generally react quick enough if I decide to actually go in.

The only thing that makes the matchup winnable is how "restable" Ganon is. up-tilt, up-air and, to a lesser extent, up-smash all combo into rest. up-air around 30-40%. up-tilt from around 20-50%. and I'm not exactly sure about up-smash, but I think it's a tight window, I'll have to experiment with it some. A poorly DI'd pound also leads into rest.

Even so, good luck getting in to rest him. If you approach poorly you will take 30%+ damage or just flat out die. If you do get in, you better land that rest or knock him back far enough away to not immediately grab/jab you and once again begin walling you out with his superior everything. Oh, and if you miss a rest you lose a stock unless you're literally at 0%. His sword taunt is absolute bull****.

Hell, miss ANYTHING at > 60% and you will likely die. It is one of the most unforgiving matchups I have ever played. You need to rest to stay competitive but missing one = dead Puff at ridiculously low percents.

I beat my friend's Ganon pretty regularly with ZSS and Samus and I'm overall the better player, but I can't win more than 20% of my games as Puff. It'd be 0% if I wasn't pretty good at landing rests. He makes me question Puff's viability in 3.5 and I want/need her to be good again. That being said I won't give up on the matchup yet - I'll just have to get better.

/endrant

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Beorn Wario is incredibly good against most characters, yes. He still loses to strong disjoint/zoning like Link, Marth, etc -- and loses pretty badly to Fox, against whom Wario has no neutral game and dies at 80%.

It sounds like Mr. Pickles is just a better player than you, but we'd need videos to really be able to tell. The MU was really stacked for Link in 3.02, but I have no idea how hard Link was nerfed in the last patch.

@ S Soupchicken that was the greatest first post of all time

 

[TheNameIsAstro]

Wario is really ****ing good dude. I don't believe that he is top tier, but in 3.5 he is definitely one of the best. More people need to realize he's amazing. I play a good wario pretty often and It always surprise me to see people stick him in mid tier. I feel like it's because there are so many marths out there. Marth being one of his few losing matchups. I play my link against Mr. Pickles Wario quite a lot and I will never understand how the general consensus is that link wins wario doesn't have to respect Link at all. Just seems like there is a lot of miss information about characters right now because everyone is having to adjust.

Mr. Pickle is a god. Jamz is up and coming too man. Wario is definitely higher than mid tier imo. At least upper B tier.

 

[Beorn]

@ Beorn Wario is incredibly good against most characters, yes. He still loses to strong disjoint/zoning like Link, Marth, etc -- and loses pretty badly to Fox, against whom Wario has no neutral game and dies at 80%.

It sounds like Mr. Pickles is just a better player than you, but we'd need videos to really be able to tell. The MU was really stacked for Link in 3.02, but I have no idea how hard Link was nerfed in the last patch.

@ S Soupchicken that was the greatest first post of all time

Mr. pickle is better than me, but not by a wide margin. We go mostly even with him winning the majority of games. IN 3.02

In 3.5 wario got slightly nerfed and Link got touched much more heavily. Link loses this. I'm not the only link main that thinks this. Warios weight, air mobility, Nair, and great tech chase game all pretty convincingly thrash Link.

Link wins neutral more often than wario, but link has a very hard time killing wario, be it comboing into kill moves or gimping him. A stock lead means nothing to wario when one fart, fsmash, or nair can mean links stock at very early percents. Links recovery, tech roll, general movement plus attack speed, and combo weight means 0 deaths or two touch deaths often from one grab or hit confirm.

You can't tether against a wario as link. Dair and nair will strait up kill link at 30 for trying, because tethers cannot be canceled,or jumped out of like they could in melee or 3.02. That and links up-b is strait up beat by any number of warios moves. Link just falls to his death because of how unreliable bomb jumping from an aerial glide toss is now and the low angle and high power of some of warios moves. Meanwhile link has sweetspot (foothit) Nair, Bair, and ftilt to edge guard wario. Wario does not care about any of these, and dares you to go out and try something.

None of this is to say Link is a bad character in 3.5, but he loses to wario.

 

[Bazkip]

I'm not sure how I feel about Ganon overall, but against Puff at least he's top-tier. Yes I'm hella salty. I know this isn't the right place for this, but allow me to explain why I'm so pissed.

As you all know, Puff's game is all about aerial pokes. Ganon is really hard to poke. His jab and ftilt make it hard to approach from the front, especially with Puff's non-existant ground game. His aerials all trade favorably and cover literally every angle of approach. In particular, fair not only outranges your bair but it flat out beats it, usually killing you. You have to be pin-point precise with your poke game or you will be punished hard, and that is an understatement.

His down-throw leads to a guaranteed bair/up-air/fair (depending on DI & percentage but one option is always available) at < 140%, which means a virtually guaranteed kill when grabbed > 65%. If you get past his fairs, bairs, ftilts, and jabs you better do something with the opportunity because you won't be sitting close to him very long before being jabbed away or grabbed. In short, he absolutely demolishes Puff once he gets his hands on her. Even when you aren't killed immediately, getting back on stage is pretty difficult. The fact that his Fair wins every trade means you can't sit just off-stage throwing out aerials until an opening appears. He will come for you and he will kill you. If you roll on you will get stomped to death. In fact if he ever guesses right on a tech-read or roll you will get stomped to death. If you jump from the ledge you will get a fair/bair to the face. If you pound he'll just wavedash or shorthop back into a fair and destroy you. I can't find anything more reliable than air-dodging onto the stage and even that gets predictable. Normally I'd be okay with being stuck off-stage but since I can't reliably gimp him and his moves beat mine my off-stage options are limited. Even when you do get on, all it takes is a ftilt or jab to knock you back off and reset the situation.

On top of that, gimping Ganon's recovery is suprisingly hard. His side-b makes Puff's signature off-stage Fair/Bair chains pretty useless unless you're willing to trade stocks. This means Ganon can generally get close to the stage at which point he's pretty safe as Puff can't go after him below the stage due to her poor vertical recovery. If he comes in level with the stage he'll just side-b you if you approach. In any case, his recovery is not easy for Puff to deal with relative to other matchups I play. I try baiting out side-bs but the mind-game is pretty ganon favored as he can generally react quick enough if I decide to actually go in.

The only thing that makes the matchup winnable is how "restable" Ganon is. up-tilt, up-air and, to a lesser extent, up-smash all combo into rest. up-air around 30-40%. up-tilt from around 20-50%. and I'm not exactly sure about up-smash, but I think it's a tight window, I'll have to experiment with it some. A poorly DI'd pound also leads into rest.

Even so, good luck getting in to rest him. If you approach poorly you will take 30%+ damage or just flat out die. If you do get in, you better land that rest or knock him back far enough away to not immediately grab/jab you and once again begin walling you out with his superior everything. Oh, and if you miss a rest you lose a stock unless you're literally at 0%. His sword taunt is absolute bull****.

Hell, miss ANYTHING at > 60% and you will likely die. It is one of the most unforgiving matchups I have ever played. You need to rest to stay competitive but missing one = dead Puff at ridiculously low percents.

I beat my friend's Ganon pretty regularly with ZSS and Samus and I'm overall the better player, but I can't win more than 20% of my games as Puff. It'd be 0% if I wasn't pretty good at landing rests. He makes me question Puff's viability in 3.5 and I want/need her to be good again. That being said I won't give up on the matchup yet - I'll just have to get better.

/endrant

People complaining about Ganon? This is new to me.

The MU was considered favourable for Puff in Melee and almost everything you're complaining about is exactly the same as Melee. The big difference from Melee from what you're saying being Flame Choke but imo that's really not that much of a game changer. It shouldn't be too difficult for Jiggs to hit him out of it with good spacing. All your aerials come out faster than fair, should again be dead easy to hit him out of it. His grab range is atrocious, weaving should make it very difficult for Ganon to grab you. Sword taunt as a whiffed rest punish is more or less the same as punishing it with Warlock Punch.

Ganon's buffs will definitely improve this MU for him, it's probably even now or maybe a bit in his favour, but definitely nowhere near unwinnable for Jiggs. Yeah Ganon kills you really hard, but you said it yourself, you do the same right back. It's a volatile matchup, that's just kinda how Jiggs rolls(out

)

 

[Boiko]

can anyone name any top kirby (besides chudat) and toon link players?

DVD for Toon Link.

Ness' recovery isn't trash, I would consider it mediocre.

Predictable, slow, weirdly low priority, can do nothing against an opponent hanging on ledge when coming from below. It's pretty bad.

 

[Deleted member]

Tink players need to get more footage but Me, DVD, Jolteon, and Aero are good tinks

 

[Shockbound]

Predictable, slow, weirdly low priority, can do nothing against an opponent hanging on ledge when coming from below. It's pretty bad.

Additionally, PKT2 has extreme hitlag on every hitbox it crosses paths with. I saw a game yesterday where a Charizard was using fire-breath on the ledge when Ness was coming for him from offstage, and Ness managed to cross two fire-breath hitboxes (spending about 20-30 frames in each I swear) before he fell helplessly off the edge. Ness could have otherwise covered 3 times the distance without any interference.

Being around Ness is like being with your 106 year old grandfather that you can only feel bad for because he's just not able to function on his own anymore, but you can't help him ;~;

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Tink players need to get more footage but Me, DVD, Jolteon, and Aero are good tinks

You undersell yourself, can't be easy winning any matches with a bottom 5 character

 

[Deleted member]

loooooool
Oh no you can gimp toonlink now and his bomb distance isn't the size of battlefield how will I ever wiiiii-

OH WAIT 19% BOOMERANG

 

[DrinkingFood]

Whose idea was that anyway
It's not like boomerang wasn't good before, tossing it out at a safe distance is already a valuable use for it given it has an active hitbox on return to disrupt momentum the other player might build up
I demand ROB's gyro have the ability to return to ROB under its own volition
Zelda even gained a boomerang in 3.5
Project booMerang for 3.6 plz

 

[Boiko]

Tink players need to get more footage but Me, DVD, Jolteon, and Aero are good tinks

LOL, I SOMEHOW COMPLETELY FORGOT ABOUT YOU.

Additionally, PKT2 has extreme hitlag on every hitbox it crosses paths with. I saw a game yesterday where a Charizard was using fire-breath on the ledge when Ness was coming for him from offstage, and Ness managed to cross two fire-breath hitboxes (spending about 20-30 frames in each I swear) before he fell helplessly off the edge. Ness could have otherwise covered 3 times the distance without any interference.

Being around Ness is like being with your 106 year old grandfather that you can only feel bad for because he's just not able to function on his own anymore, but you can't help him ;~;

Yeah, it's silly when he hits fire breath. Makes me laugh/cry.

 

[Deleted member]

Whose idea was that anyway

Literally "because melee" since YLs does 19% sweetspot
so... sakurai

 

[Soft Serve]

Just lost most of my considerable respect for you. I thought you had a clue. :/

In pm I think fox/puff I'd 60/40. Puff has more time to get around/through lasers and has more than one ban, so you can ban Ps2 and FD so you have a chance. Fox/puff in melee on fd is unwinnable for puff

 

[DrinkingFood]

Why not buff arrows instead of 'rang. Arrow seems almost exclusively for both links to be "Oh **** I have my two good projectiles out but don't want to go in or throw bomb yet, better use my ****ty one".

 

[Deleted member]

I think tinks arrows have uses. If a DBZ moment happens and both my opponent and I are falling back to the stage, if I charge an arrow on my way down I can shoot it and run at them. They're forced to get hit or shield, as to where my rang/bomb would've been too slow or not have hit anything

also if your opponent misses a tech, you can charge an arrow. All tech options covered, you can wait there forever until they choose their getup option only to get hit and then fair'd

 

[mimgrim]

Make Arrow a kill move.

 

[Narpas_sword]

Make Arrow a kill move.

Make arrow a spike =D

 

[Deleted member]

Arrow is renamed to Aero, toonlink mains can now summon the socal toonlink with the press of the B button

 

[Mr.Pickle]

the best character in the game is wario right now.

You really need to give me a reason as to why you think that, because I honestly don't believe you. He's good, I'll give you that, but not top. I can reasonably see low high tier, but any farther is pushing it to me.

And yeah wario wins the link matchup imo, as long as you remember you can di links "kill moves" to 180 you're golden. I'd say more, but it's already been said by Beorn.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Can we also have a special that makes him take a shower, then? Some of his combos are 3greasy5me

 

[Deleted member]

I mean... I think the best character in 3.5 is fox simply because no character has a better MU spreadsheet than him lol

What character has a better overall MU spreadsheet? I can't think of many characters fox ACTUALLY loses to in 3.5.

 

[CyberZixx]

I think in melee, Fox vs Puff is easily 7-3, maybe even 8-2. Fox complexly destroys puff.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

He doesn't honestly, he should win every matchup now that there isn't a character specifically designed to beat them. Wario actually has bad matchups, marth is one that immediately comes to mind.

 

[Ripple]

fox loses to DDD

 

[Blank Mauser]

Ivysaur is the best eye-em-oh. But May-lay chars edge her out on specific stages. She is kinda like that top 3 char that doesn't let most the cast play, while she does whatever she wants to them, but in theory she shouldn't actually win neutral as much as she does.

Still the best tho. More people need to play her.