Tier List Speculation

[Comprehend13]

The Jiggs vs DK comparison to Jiggs vs Toon Link comparison seems disingenuous. Toon Link never has to approach.

That was like one time when I was a scrub and said I'm a top Falco

That was less than 2 months ago in this very same thread.
...I think your posts might be better received if you stopped comparing yourself to prominent and highly successful smash players

 

[Deleted member]

Same argument for any character against any other character. That's kinda how you win the game.

Thats an incredible overgeneralization.
Might as well just classify every MU as 50-50 since they all just hit eachother a bunch and then they die

 

[Mean Green]

The Jiggs vs DK comparison to Jiggs vs Toon Link comparison seems disingenuous. Toon Link never has to approach.

Tbh DK doesn't either. He just needs to protect himself until either the clock runs out or puffs stocks do, because in this MU, DK's nair is his boomerang and bombs.

 

[Foo]

Thats an incredible overgeneralization.
Might as well just classify every MU as 50-50 since they all just hit eachother a bunch and then they die

Yeah, duh. Just git gud and hit your opponent more and get them off stage to win. Obviously your* just bad?/s

But yeah, what you said was the point I was trying to get across.









*even doing it ironically made me cringe

 

[Strong Badam]

DK's nair isn't really matchup-defining anymore now that it doesn't have forearm invincibility. Certainly a good tool and probably his best approach option, but he's not really capable of walling people out with it, nor do I think he was in 3.0.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Wouldn't IC's vs. the cast suck?

Fixed

 

[Rizner]

I tried thinking of a good matchup for Bowser and I couldn't
Somebody help me justify this character

Real small stages against people who prematurely use their second jump he's great.

 

[Juushichi]

DK vs Jigglypuff is in Puff's favor 55-45 or 6-4.

DK really can't do anything to Puff except try to space bairs and I guess jump into Puff and die or ineffectively recover and die.

I think that Puff vs TL is still not good, but I really would want to see a top TL vs one of the better puffs (Abu, Hbox, Pech). I really should have gotten Jolteon to play SoulPech at BH4, because I think that people overblow how bad the MU and how bad Puff is.

@ the person saying incorrect things i.e. GnW. The best or second best (if you believe SB is the best) Game and Watch in the world decided to pick a secondary to play against the best Roy in the world because he felt the MU was that bad.

@ Strong Badam , have you had a chance to play Sethlon in Roy-GnW? I would imagine you just play Wario for it.

Also, MUs or whatever... I don't think people often play against a good Bowser very often and also can't applicably place him either. He's no where close to the worst character in the game.

 

[Mean Green]

n v m

 

[Deleted member]

After playing Dakpo in Roy v GnW, I think its pretty bad for GnW but not as bad as marth. It's do-able, kind of?

 

[didds]

SoCal is not that good at PM. At BH4, Westballz didn't even get top 16, Lucky didn't even make it out of 2nd round pools - he lost pretty solidly to a mid level Yoshi. Larry went to sktar 3, didn't even get top 16. He actually tied with one of New England's best players, Wolf. Mango quits out of sets. SoCal overrates themselves on a continuous basis, they'd get rekt by TX, Midwest, MD/VA, Tristate. Aside from Larry, they'd probably go head-to-head with New England

I was that
Minnesota confirmed better than SoCal

 

[&Y_]

After playing Dakpo in Roy v GnW, I think its pretty bad for GnW but not as bad as marth. It's do-able, kind of?

I definitely think Roy is a better match than Marth for Gdubs. You die if you get above either so Roy's sillier combos don't really matter. Gdubs just has no way to do anything in neutral to Marth or Roy. Just run away and space downtilts until you get a hit and then 0-death them because gdubs combo game is godlike. And because you might not get another chance.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ the person saying incorrect things i.e. GnW. The best or second best (if you believe SB is the best) Game and Watch in the world decided to pick a secondary to play against the best Roy in the world because he felt the MU was that bad.

@ Strong Badam , have you had a chance to play Sethlon in Roy-GnW? I would imagine you just play Wario for it.

I am not the best G&W, anyone who is reading this and feels I am the best please stop that. To say I am would be pretty insulting to @ Dakpo , for he has achieved far more with this character than I have, or likely ever will.

I have played him & Lunchables in a pre-3.5 dev build and only took one game against each in a string of 5+ games. It is tough for sure but it was likely a combination of them being better at Roy than I was at G&W and the matchup being tough, rather than exclusively the latter.

 

[Oro?!]

People sleep on Chicago...

 

[jtm94]

What's a Chicago? Is that where Xanadu is?!

/i think ROB is pretty good now. Him and Luigi have some of the best recovery still.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What's a Chicago? Is that where Xanadu is?!

/i think ROB is pretty good now. Him and Luigi have some of the best recovery still.

... Luigi's recovery is terrible.

He is begging, nay, demanding to be hit out of it.

 

[trash?]

remember when snake has his old sideb and all he had to do vs luigi was let it hit him every time for his edgeguards

goooood times

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

I was that
Minnesota confirmed better than SoCal

LMAO

 

[skellitorman]

Also, MUs or whatever... I don't think people often play against a good Bowser very often and also can't applicably place him either. He's no where close to the worst character in the game.

Although it's likely true that people often don't play against a good Bowser and place him low without understanding the character well, I am surprised that you think that he's no where close to the worst character in the game.

What characters do you think are lower than Bowser?

 

[DMG]

In the prior patch, I probably would have argued IC, Ganon, and Jiggs were worse off than Bowser, but mainly because he was polarizing enough to force really good stages for advantages (compared to Jiggs where even if you ran away, you might not have as many big stages vs Bowser getting 3-4 tiny ones in most rulesets)

Right now, who knows. Idk what the Olimar changes were, and people seem unhappy with them, but he was clearly better than Bowsie in 3.0? Everyone else is a mystery. Also, if you restrict the stage list on really small stages, or give enough bans to remove most of them, Bowser drops off a lot since there would not be a WW, Metal Cavern, Yoshi's, etc to "cheese" on

 

[Ripple]

People sleep on Chicago...

even I sleep on chicago

 

[PlateProp]

even I sleep on chicago

If I sleep on top of a chicago player, does that meqn I'm sleeping on chicago

 

[Dakpo]

I am not the best G&W, anyone who is reading this and feels I am the best please stop that. To say I am would be pretty insulting to @ Dakpo , for he has achieved far more with this character than I have, or likely ever will..

 

[Soft Serve]

Can we talk about how bad Up-b Tethers character's recoveries are now? Out of Olimar, Ivy, and ZSS, only ZSS even has the ability to mix-up and recovery high with down-b. The other two are either forced to get close and air dodge onto the stage, or just die because tethers are obscenely easy to punish now. You just have to grab the ledge before they up-b, then wait until they are forced to pull up (because they cant tether cancel anymore) then ledge hop and throw out a strong move that covers all their drift options, which either kills them or resets the situation. If you dont kill them, you just do it one more time and they cant actually recovery.

Its stupid how bad these recoveries are because they are too easy to edge guard. They have only one option to go for, and it can be covered easily with no real ability for them to mix it up. These recoveries are almost melee Doc levels of bad.

 

[shairn]

Olimar can stall with down B and neutral B until your invincibility runs out and stage spike you with upB.
Meanwhile, Sheik literally dies as soon as you grab the ledge. There's nothing wrong with having a bad recovery.

 

[MLGF]

I mean, Tether's feel as if they have to be on one end of the extreme, and I'd much rather it be the way it is now then how it was in 3.5.

I mean, it promotes some creative was to work around it. I've seen Ivy players use Razor leaf to quickly cover themselves as they tether, and I've been trying more walljump hijinks with ZZS.

People seem so sensitive, but this has a lot of potential.

 

[Soft Serve]

I agree theres nothing wrong with having a bad recovery, but bad recoveries like shiek or Roy can at least mix up their recoveries and go for stage/ledge mixups.
I dont think theres anything wrong with Z-tethers being punishable and linear, but up-b tethers just get **** on by the changes. I dont play any of those characters but I with they could at least still tether cancel for a risky mix up, use both thier up-bs in one go for a fake out to not just get punished for free.

 

[Chevy]

I think that the land lag from forced tether jump should be reduced by a bit. There's enough time for the edge-guarder to whiff an attempt, and then still have time for another punish attempt if you land on stage. It's just hand-holding in the other direction at this point. Tether edge guarding is just boring now, unfortunately. There's not really much interaction, hold ledge->watch drift direction->punish.

 

[Scuba Steve]

I'd honestly be fine with up-b tethers being taken out entirely and replaced with new recovery moves

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm not sure Ivy mains would be cool with losing the high-five.

 

[Deleted member]

I think the 3.5 tether changes are great to everyone except Ivy and Olimar.
The 3.5 Up B Recovery adjustments they got were fit for a 3.02 environment, not a 3.5 one. Now they're just really, really really bad offstage. I DO AGREE HOWEVER that its basically the same as sheiks recovery, so I'm kind of mixed on it.

 

[Rᴏb]

what if Ivy's upb didn't grab the ledge anymore and she got a buffed dair recovery for compensation?

 

[shairn]

what if Ivy's upb didn't grab the ledge anymore and she got a buffed dair recovery for compensation?

That's even worse

 

[Foo]

I'd honestly be fine with up-b tethers being taken out entirely and replaced with new recovery moves

I've said almost this exact same thing before.

NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOONONONONONONONONONonoNONONoNOnoNONoNonONONONONOOOOOOOOONONONOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO

NO, STOP, DON'T. NO.

Please don't remove the last cool thing ZSS can do. With the exception of olimar, up-b tether characters up-bs are moves that are an important part of their kit, ZSS in particular. Maybe Ivy and Olimar could be given new ones. I'm sure olimar players wouldn't mind, and I'm not sure what Ivy players would say. If they want it, then sure. However, ZSS needs her current up-b.

 

[Rᴏb]

That's even worse

why

 

[shairn]

why

Because then Ivy can't recover low.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Olimar can stall with down B and neutral B until your invincibility runs out and stage spike you with upB.
Meanwhile, Sheik literally dies as soon as you grab the ledge. There's nothing wrong with having a bad recovery.

Um, down b does not stall. nB does, but I wouldn't call it significant vertically after the 1 stall. Also, the hitbox was removed in 3.5, so Olimar's recovery is actually the worst tether because of the unreliability of pikmin chain.

 

[leekslap]

@ Strong Badam What if Jiggs the Puff had the ability to hold Rollout charges ala Samus and DK? It would give her an extremely good mixup, kill move, and a way to force approaches. It wouldn't be broken because first of all, ledge stalls are nerfed so she'd just have to randomly charge it in the air. Second of all, it's predictable and punishable even though it eats shields( you can just jump over it ). To hit it, you'd have to do something like: condition him to expect bairs/start dash dancing, charge it to force approaches, repeat step 1 but this time unleash Rollout into your opponent's dash dance, and your opponent just got wrecked. IDK, just an idea, but thing is for sure: she'd be a hell of a lot less gay lol

Olimar would be fine if he had a good fixed recovery, and reverted back to his 3.0 self while keeping the buffs and losing some of the weird nerfs.

 

[Rᴏb]

Because then Ivy can't recover low.

When I said "buffed dair" I meant buffed in a way that would essentially turn it into an alternative jump that would eventually deplete after a given number of uses. I figured it would give her a great horizontal recovery and an okay vertical recovery that was comparable to Jigglypuff's. I hate her current upb for recovery purposes, but that's it, so I'm just throwing ideas out at this point so her upb is maintained in every area outside of it's recovery use.

 

[shairn]

Jiggs actually has really great vertical recovery when you take into account side B and her airdodge.
I can't say I agree with giving Ivy more jumps though. Her vertical and horizontal recovery is already good, albeit linear, and relying on jumps seems like it'd be even worse for her.

@ Strong Badam What if Jiggs the Puff had the ability to hold Rollout charges ala Samus and DK? It would give her an extremely good mixup, kill move, and a way to force approaches. It wouldn't be broken because first of all, ledge stalls are nerfed so she'd just have to randomly charge it in the air. Second of all, it's predictable and punishable even though it eats shields( you can just jump over it ). To hit it, you'd have to do something like: condition him to expect bairs/start dash dancing, charge it to force approaches, repeat step 1 but this time unleash Rollout into your opponent's dash dance, and your opponent just got wrecked. IDK, just an idea, but thing is for sure: she'd be a hell of a lot less gay lol

Olimar would be fine if he had a good fixed recovery, and reverted back to his 3.0 self while keeping the buffs and losing some of the weird nerfs.

There is so much wrong with this. First of all, what part of nerfing ledge stalls makes it so holding a rollout charge isn't broken? If it works anything like other charge moves it can be canceled at any time, so it's a relatively risk free move so long as you position yourself correctly. And second, there's nothing predictable about rollout if you already have it charged and pull it out when you're next to your opponent. If you ask me, it sounds like she'd be a lot more dumb.