Tier List Speculation

[leekslap]

[Anyone confused because of ignore list shenanigans, this is directed to leekslap, though you could've figured that out from the content]


Sorry, dude. You made a very long string of profoundly unimpressive posts that led me to ignore you in defense of my sanity. As a result of this, I haven't had the opportunity or need to re-investigate the situation. So, you may or may not have deserved that jab.

Anyway, it's spelled pretentious, and I apologize for being a bit of a jerk.


Actually, I agree entirely: rollout storage is a great idea, regardless of who suggested it. That said, I'd appreciate if you'd lose the homophobia. Using "gay" as a pejorative helps absolutely nobody, and mostly just makes you (or anyone else using the term in that fashion) look like a jerk.


Believe this, then: I've been where you are. Hell, I'd wager good money that most of the people here have. I was an obnoxious, highly opinionated 12 year old on a gaming forum (jesus christ, I'm old) literally 12 years ago, and I thought that everyone was picking on me just because.

They weren't. It took me a long time to learn some of this.

There are some jerks/trolls who will continue to give you crap, but if you actually want to be taken seriously, there are reasonable steps you can take:

• 1. Orange text. I understand wanting to express your individuality, but holy hell that hurts to read. Please stop.
• 2. Format using paragraphs.
• 3. Try not to post every thought that comes into your head. If you're absolutely sure about something, explain why. Do so in a reasonable fashion, and try not to take it personally when somebody disagrees.
• 4. If you're not absolutely sure about something, it's typically easier to ask what other people think and why, to form a more solid opinion yourself. Your opinions will carry more credibility when people are made aware that you do not articulate them willy-nilly.
• 5. Try not to assert that you're a top 3 falco player with some pretty solid evidence, heh
• 6. Understand that not most who comes across as ****ish aren't trying to crush your spirit, and don't hold personal grudges against you. Typically, they simply don't take you seriously because in their estimation, you haven't earned it yet.
• 7. Haters gonn' hate. Git gud, prove them wrong.

I strongly, strongly recommend reading this book. It will help.

1. Fair enough lol
2. Already do; guess I need to do it more
3. I don't usually take it personal
4. Already do
5. That was my fault lol
6. #3 but I had very solid evidence of bias
7. Will do. I think it's impressive enough a twelve year old isn't a total scrub even though I used to be.

Fair post; just had to get it out.

 

[~Dad~]

I'm sure I could powershield a random rollout 10/10 times, that's stuff a decent competitve player should be able to do.

Dang this guy is really good at hypothetical powershielding.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Dang this guy is really good at hypothetical powershielding.

Powershielding in this game is actually really easy, comparatively speaking. If you're used to 1,2,3 frame timings, the difficulty of consistently powershielding most projectiles/rollouts is about on par with that of beating a particularly frail baby in a fistfight.

 

[PootisKonga]

Powershielding in this game is actually really easy, comparatively speaking. If you're used to 1,2,3 frame timings, the difficulty of consistently powershielding most projectiles/rollouts is about on par with that of beating a particularly frail baby in a fistfight.

Meanwhile the only things I can perfect shield consecutively so far are Falcon's Dair and knees
Edit: powershield =/= perfect shield

 

[Foo]

Looks like you just need to be right. And I'm sure I could powershield a random rollout 10/10 times, that's stuff a decent competitve player should be able to do. You mean to tell me that having people stay on their toes long enough to deal with a random rollout is asking too much? Reply however you want. I'm done posting.

Get your friend to to hold and charge rollout from under just under the far side of a platform on battlefield, then you stand in the middle. Tell him to launch it whenever he wants. I GUARANTEE you will miss the powershield 10/10 times and that's with you focusing on nothing but blocking it. It's like the party trick where you drop a dollar between your friends finger tips. It is physically impossible without a lucky guess (hard read). Stored rollouts would be ganon kick times 20.

Also, get out of here with the "You have to be right" and then "I'm done posting" crap. If you can't handle discussing something with someone who disagrees with you, then delete your forum account. If you aren't on a forum for discussion, why are you in this thread?

 

[~Dad~]

Powershielding in this game is actually really easy, comparatively speaking. If you're used to 1,2,3 frame timings, the difficulty of consistently powershielding most projectiles/rollouts is about on par with that of beating a particularly frail baby in a fistfight.

Powershielding in this game is way easier yeah but his post just made me giggle.

 

[Mean Green]

Dang this guy is really good at hypothetical powershielding.

Powershielding is something I practice in Melee.

Get your friend to to hold and charge rollout from under just under the far side of a platform on battlefield, then you stand in the middle. Tell him to launch it whenever he wants. I GUARANTEE you will miss the powershield 10/10 times and that's with you focusing on nothing but blocking it. It's like the party trick where you drop a dollar between your friends finger tips. It is physically impossible without a lucky guess (hard read). Stored rollouts would be ganon kick times 20.

Also, get out of here with the "You have to be right" and then "I'm done posting" crap. If you can't handle discussing something with someone who disagrees with you, then delete your forum account. If you aren't on a forum for discussion, why are you in this thread?

I wasn't going to reply to you but ok, 3 last things,
1- I'm in this thread because someone shouted me out and someone else (you) replied to me. Chill out.
2- Puff is one of the least threatening characters in PM. Fox is insanely easy to use, and still just as threatening as in Melee. Puff, might be the worst character, and all she has is Rollout and Rest, both of which need preparation to use. There's nothing broken about storing her neutral B. Shadow Ball is more threatening imo. And yes, I can powershield them- during matches when I'm in the opponent's head and know what to expect, or when I'm more worried about spacing and safety than offense.
3- I'm not really seeing why you'd reply to me with half of what you say, except for the sake of starting an argument just to win, and that's the only reason I said that.

So lets say you could powershield it every time, there will still be tons of situations where you won't be able to shield it. It's fast enough to combo into reliably or punish just about anything that isn't shield. If it's chargeable in the air it would also encourage Jiggs to seek (even) less confrontations until it's online.

Not saying it would be impossible to balance, but just straight making current rollout chargeable would be wandering about as far away from the design goals as possible.

This is a good response.
"Because that's counterproductive to PMDT's goals" is basically the argument. As opposed to "most people can't learn how to expect what from their opponent, so I don't think it's a good idea". Foo if you had said that from the start I would not have argued.

 

[Soft Serve]

Powershielding PM projectiles is stupid easy if you learned on falco lasers

 

[Ace55]

Powershielding is something I practice in Melee.

So lets say you could powershield it every time, there will still be tons of situations where you won't be able to shield it. It's fast enough to combo into reliably or punish just about anything that isn't shield. If it's chargeable in the air it would also encourage Jiggs to seek (even) less confrontations until it's online.

Not saying it would be impossible to balance, but just straight making current rollout chargeable would be wandering about as far away from the design goals as possible.

 

[Frost | Odds]

story of every PM character

Actually, untrue of Samus and ROB at least, which is precisely why I've put them so high.

 

[Strong Badam]

Samus isn't really a PM character haha

 

[Soft Serve]

Actually, untrue of Samus and ROB at least, which is precisely why I've put them so high.

I actually believe that the samus/fox MU is worse for Samus in 3.5 than it was in Melee. It was better in 3.02 because she had some really silly, really easy ToD combos on them.
Tether changes really really hurt her, nerfs+SDI multipliers increased on her upair and Fire upsmash limit her combo game on the spacies from 3.02 (or at least give the spacies counterplay in the form of SDI), and what I thought she had that made her stupid good in 3.02, Zair, fire Upsmash, and bombs just ignoring shields, all got nerfed or removed
Samus is still good, but I can't put her over characters like Roy/marth

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Samus isn't really a PM character haha

In what sense? I love her design and playstyle and am curious to hear why you think so.

 

[Strong Badam]

I just mean that her design is like 90% Melee Samus with a few additional bells & whistles thrown on. "PM characters" are usually more PM-unique than that.

 

[Jams.]

Actually, untrue of Samus and ROB at least, which is precisely why I've put them so high.

Laser is actually frame 25, with ROB having a noticeable animation beforehand where he pulls back his head. It's pretty unique in that it requires preemptive powershielding and experience with identifying his laser animation, since the actual projectile itself is ridiculously fast. I think that with enough experience someone could consistently powershield ROB's laser in neutral. Gyro is just some projectile item that can be treated like many other projectiles in this game in the case of powershielding.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I just mean that her design is like 90% Melee Samus with a few additional bells & whistles thrown on. "PM characters" are usually more PM-unique than that.

Is there some sort of exhaustive changelist somewhere on the differences from melee (ice mode aside obv.)? Maybe it's just the easier short hop and RAR and stuff, but PM Samus has always felt better to me. Ftilt/dsmash seem longer, dtilt/usmash/uair seem to combo better, fair seems to be way less crappy.

I could also very well be imagining it.

@ Jams. I said that I imagine ROB to be near the top due largely to his relatively solid matchups against the spacies. The laser isn't actually terribly hard to powershield, nor do I really have a ton of complaints about the character in general. Yet.

I actually believe that the samus/fox MU is worse for Samus in 3.5 than it was in Melee. [Argument]

Hadn't thought of any of that. Were the changes really that significant?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Is there some sort of exhaustive changelist somewhere on the differences from melee (ice mode aside obv.)? Maybe it's just the easier short hop and RAR and stuff, but PM Samus has always felt better to me. Ftilt/dsmash seem longer, dtilt/usmash/uair seem to combo better, fair seems to be way less crappy.

I could also very well be imagining it.

@ Jams. I said that I imagine ROB to be near the top due largely to his relatively solid matchups against the spacies. The laser isn't actually terribly hard to powershield, nor do I really have a ton of complaints about the character in general. Yet.


Hadn't thought of any of that. Were the changes really that significant?

A worse recovery for Samus and a not significantly worse USmash for Fox. Yeah. I think Samus probably still does better against Fox than most characters do and it may be less stage-dependent.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Is there some sort of exhaustive changelist somewhere on the differences from melee (ice mode aside obv.)? Maybe it's just the easier short hop and RAR and stuff, but PM Samus has always felt better to me. Ftilt/dsmash seem longer, dtilt/usmash/uair seem to combo better, fair seems to be way less crappy.

I could also very well be imagining it.

@ Jams. I said that I imagine ROB to be near the top due largely to his relatively solid matchups against the spacies. The laser isn't actually terribly hard to powershield, nor do I really have a ton of complaints about the character in general. Yet.


Hadn't thought of any of that. Were the changes really that significant?

ROB loses to falco and probably Wolf too. They approach at an angle that ROB can't handle (read, any angle that's not straight on) with moves that can't be CC'd and their projectiles can stuff his ability to get a gyro out, which is actually one of his best defenses against other projectiles. It might not be a bad loss to either but if "relatively good matchups against spacies" includes losing matchups, your definition is a little broad.
Fox is another story- I think ROB beats fox slightly, Oracle thinks the reverse is true.

 

[Tagxy]

@ Tagxy Every time you talk about QAC2 cancel, you say it was completely worthless in 3.02. Bad in neutral, bad for recovery, etc. If it was really that bad, surely removing it isn't a big nerf to pikachu, let alone one big enough to bring pika from mid tier to bottom tier a midst just about every other character getting nerfs.

I've consistently held more or less a similar view of pikachus viability, and in the past have also said the biggest issues with the change were in terms of the design and unique value. In fact while I prefer its return, Ive also said Id rather it be taken out completely then left in the horrid form its in now. I didnt mind too much that pika was bad because he was fun, now hes neither good nor fun. That being said when have I ever said QAC2 was worthless? Its biggest value came from its mix-up ability, but it was situational (heavily dependent on position).

In terms of viability what I can say about 3.5 pika as compared to melee is he simply doesnt have the tools to edgeguard the cast in the same way he did in melee. Recoveries are still too good. Also 3.5 pika gets owned even harder by anyone playing degenerative campy with range and projectiles from a PM 3.0 cast, properties that are much more pronounced then in melee. Im not sure yet if projectiles and range were toned down enough that this wouldnt be as big an issue, but QAC2 was one of the best tools we had around this so that potentially makes a weakness we already had even more exaggerated without real compensation.

 

[Oracle]

Yeah I think fox beats rob, since its still nigh impossible to do anything vs a good fox, but its fairly close or even because of the chaingrab. Probably does just as well as marth vs fox in melee.

I do think that rob is high tier, but he does have a good amount of troubling matchups from random characters that will probably prevent him from being top, like gw, falcon, zss, and d3. What kind of top tier loses to falcon?

 

[Frost | Odds]

[ROB has] a good amount of troubling matchups from random characters that will probably prevent him from being top, like gw, falcon, zss, and d3. What kind of top tier loses to falcon?

I'm having a lot of trouble imagining how ROB could possibly lose to falcon, zss, or D3. Would you mind elucidating?

 

[Strong Badam]

Yeah I think fox beats rob, since its still nigh impossible to do anything vs a good fox, but its fairly close or even because of the chaingrab. Probably does just as well as marth vs fox in melee.

I do think that rob is high tier, but he does have a good amount of troubling matchups from random characters that will probably prevent him from being top, like gw, falcon, zss, and d3. What kind of top tier loses to falcon?

g&w beats rob? guess i need to practice my gaw a lil more before i move~

 

[didds]

now hes neither good nor fun.

Pikachu might not be good, I'm still not quite sure, but he's definitely fun for me and saying that he isn't is sort of silly to imply for all.

 

[Foo]

I think people may be sleeping on ice climbers. I know this isn't the most educated option, but I randomed them the other day and did some crazy ****, and it was basically my first time playing them. I basically zero to death my friend who was playing lucas. Did you know ICs could link up airs like donkey kong? I didn't. Did you know their up-b kills better off the top than old pit up-b? I DIDN'T LOL.

I hit up air to up air and killed someone off the top of battlefield at like 70%. They were just barely above the top platform too. They also have a projectile that's pretty tough to deal with, one of the best recoveries (if nana is alive) and a not the worst recovery if nana is dead. With a shiny new infinite, they could do pretty well. I'm not saying that aren't bad, I'm just saying that I don't think the character has been explored enough to be judged yet.

Yeah I think fox beats rob, since its still nigh impossible to do anything vs a good fox, but its fairly close or even because of the chaingrab. Probably does just as well as marth vs fox in melee.

I do think that rob is high tier, but he does have a good amount of troubling matchups from random characters that will probably prevent him from being top, like gw, falcon, zss, and d3. What kind of top tier loses to falcon?

Really? Zss is a problem matchup for rob? I haven't actually played anyone good in the matchup, but I'd always heard that ZSS had a tough time against rob. Did something change in 3.5 to shift the matchup?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Meanwhile the only things I can perfect shield consecutively so far are Falcon's Dair and knees
Edit: powershield =/= perfect shield

Well as the homie @SpiderMad would say, let me put my hands over yours, so when I push, you'll push, you'll get a feel for it. That's code for, "I wanna sleep with you." Mad uses it on all the local kids.

Edit ZSS always seemed to smack any character larger then her. @ Foo iirc Oro just played kirkQ so whatch that for kicks

 

[Oracle]

Zss might not be too bad (especially with her recovery), but its nearly impossible for rob to deal with zss doing fading bairs, since that's robs weak spot. Ironically rob didnt even care about dash cancel blaster, since he can just side b on reaction. Falcon approaches from robs weak spot, can pin him down easily and just go nuts on his shield since rob is slow with bad oos options, and combo him super easily since rob is really weak when his opponent is underneath him. Falcon is also fast enough to where you almost never have an opportunity to get out a gyro.

D3 could actually be rob's worst matchup. Rob sucks vs projectiles when he cant reflect them, and d3 can shieldgrab most of rob's pressure from the air (you can still technically jab to beat a shieldgrab if youre frame perfect, but its a super risky 50-50. I usually prefer boost fair to backdash, but d3s grab is so long hell still grab you at max range, from what ive found). Easy juggles and better grounded pokes hurt, but the worst part is recovery. Rob's recovery is actually extremely linear, and d3 has so much more range than rob he can usually cover all of his real options on reaction( especially since d3 can easily hit below the stage). I usually go lucas in this mu since its way easier (or at least it was in 3.02 lol)

 

[Frost | Odds]

Pardon my ignorance -- what exactly is ROB's weak spot that spacies/falcon are approaching from? Above at the 45 degree-ish angle? Why is it weak?

Also what are your thoughts on ROB vs new toon link and Bowser? They both seem a bit rough from the other end of the stick, but the MU for Bowser feels at least winnable now.

 

[The_NZA]

Zss might not be too bad (especially with her recovery), but its nearly impossible for rob to deal with zss doing fading bairs, since that's robs weak spot. Ironically rob didnt even care about dash cancel blaster, since he can just side b on reaction. Falcon approaches from robs weak spot, can pin him down easily and just go nuts on his shield since rob is slow with bad oos options, and combo him super easily since rob is really weak when his opponent is underneath him. Falcon is also fast enough to where you almost never have an opportunity to get out a gyro.

D3 could actually be rob's worst matchup. Rob sucks vs projectiles when he cant reflect them, and d3 can shieldgrab most of rob's pressure from the air (you can still technically jab to beat a shieldgrab if youre frame perfect, but its a super risky 50-50. I usually prefer boost fair to backdash, but d3s grab is so long hell still grab you at max range, from what ive found). Easy juggles and better grounded pokes hurt, but the worst part is recovery. Rob's recovery is actually extremely linear, and d3 has so much more range than rob he can usually cover all of his real options on reaction( especially since d3 can easily hit below the stage). I usually go lucas in this mu since its way easier (or at least it was in 3.02 lol)

How do you feel about Ness v. Rob, Oracle?

Also, what is it about ROB this patch that his made him such a threat? I haven't played any good Robs.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That IC infinte is getting patched and ice climbers still suck
Fix your brain

 

[Oracle]

Pardon my ignorance -- what exactly is ROB's weak spot that spacies/falcon are approaching from? Above at the 45 degree-ish angle? Why is it weak?

Also what are your thoughts on ROB vs new toon link and Bowser? They both seem a bit rough from the other end of the stick, but the MU for Bowser feels at least winnable now.

Rob can't do much vs well timed aproaches from above and in front of him. His dash back/wd back is slow and he doesn't have any quick 'get off me' moves to get out of this situation, besides holding shield, and his oos options are awful. Characters who are fast and can attack safely from a short hop tend to abuse this weakness i.e. zss and falcon.

Bowser could still be bad, and maybe also Toon Link? idk it's hard to tell. Rob punishes both of those characters super hard, despite struggling in neutral/offstage, so really it can go either way with both matchups.

How do you feel about Ness v. Rob, Oracle?

Also, what is it about ROB this patch that his made him such a threat? I haven't played any good Robs.

Its probably about even. ness can get in rob's face, and as an added bonus get around cc with his dair, but rob can keep ness in juggles for a long time and Ness struggles to deal with gyro easily.

Rob isn't really better (he's actually significantly worse than in 3.0), but the dumb members of the cast got toned down, and just about everybody is edgeguardable now, so Rob doesn't just get destroyed for free and he actually gets to use one of his biggest assets: his offstage game.

 

[Ripple]

D3 has a MU in his favor? don't give D3 mains false hope oracle


but really, its pretty bad for rob

 

[Deleted member]

I'm pretty sure D3 trashes on Falcon

You guys love to eat his recovery

 

[Ripple]

D3-falcon is even

 

[Scuba Steve]

I love the Falcon-Dedede matchup. Falcon trashes Dedede so hard once he gets going and Dedede destroys Falcon as soon as he gets offstage.

 

[Oracle]

falcon is coming in with the fiery falcon punch but d3 is like naw I've got oven mitts

 

[DrinkingFood]

Pardon my ignorance -- what exactly is ROB's weak spot that spacies/falcon are approaching from? Above at the 45 degree-ish angle? Why is it weak?

Also what are your thoughts on ROB vs new toon link and Bowser? They both seem a bit rough from the other end of the stick, but the MU for Bowser feels at least winnable now.

This is why I hate talk about ROB. Generally nobody knows anything about him. ROB has a blind spot to approaches from an angle? You can escape dsmash by holding up? Fair strings don't actually work if you DI away? Nobody knows anything but now they think he's top tier or some **** because they saw two good ROBs in one place lol.

Also personally I think Sheik is ROB's worst matchup or one of his worst matchups. Regardless it's another super significant matchup ROB loses.

 

[Warsaint777]

is there much indication so far in 3.5 that dorf is still pretty mid-tier?

edit: also what about mewtwo?

 

[CORY]

i wouldn't say "still pretty mid-tier". i'd call it more like maybe "actually mid-tier now".

still top of fun tier, though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mewtwo is being slept on. Hard.

 

[Boiko]

is there much indication so far in 3.5 that dorf is still pretty mid-tier?

edit: also what about mewtwo?

I think Ganondorf is mid tier now. Still needs to be explored more.