Tier List Speculation

[MLGF]

I wish I could feel bad for Link mains.
But people could get so far off of him with no neutral or any real skill TBH, it was horrible sometimes, GG PMDT GG.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I *do* feel bad for Link mains, this character has been trash in so many versions of Smash.

Save Link plz

 

[Frost | Odds]

Obvious solution: replace his nair with a Master Sword version of Tink's new nair.


Kappa

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Just make all of his moves boomerang

 

[Vashimus]

Just make all of his moves boomerang

You will die

Sooner than others

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You will die

Sooner than others

Wtf that's my catch phrase

 

[MagnesD3]

Complete balance is impossible to achieve short of total homogenization, characters will always be relatively worse or better than other characters are. Several of us (myself included) have discussed character viability and relative placements in this thread before.

As long as everyone is tournament viable by the end everyone should be happy.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Just make all of his moves boomerang

3.02 is that way

<----------------

I'm reading the changelog -- it doesn't actually look like Link got nerfed that much...? The tether changes can't have hurt him that disproportionately, especially considering how good his recovery is without it.

 

[Soft Serve]

3.02 is that way

<----------------

I'm reading the changelog -- it doesn't actually look like Link got nerfed that much...? The tether changes can't have hurt him that disproportionately, especially considering how good his recovery is without it.

Boomerang converts less and has a lot of small tweaks that cause it to not have as much presence. His easy combo linkers like DA and utilt got hit, Nair nerf is pretty big, dthrow causes tumble earlier so you can tech away from it easier
He got a faster jump squat tho

 

[Frost | Odds]

He got a faster jump squat tho

WHAT

THE TRICKLE DOWN BUFF ECONOMY WORKS

 

[foxygrandpa]

Didn't he also get 2-0'd by a 12 year old link player who's game plan was like 80% boomerang and Zair?
Emu himself has said he doesn't think he is that great and he just got carried by playing/developing a broken character.
He is good but calling him one of the best players ever is a bit of a stretch.

M2 is definitely still very good in 3.5. He doesn't have TP hover, but thats really the biggest noticable change (tail size difference hardly matters, uptilt nerf hurts), and his dtilt got buffed. I think he does well vs the other really good characters, I can see him being considered top 10-15 still.

Aklo is my younger brother and can stomp you and 95 percent of the other people in this thread with the current crappy link. His melee link was pretty impressive too, although he mains fox because melee link is still melee link. He's just a good player, and was certainly not being carried by link. 80 percent zair and boomerang? Where did you hear that from? No one here has even seen him play. He's far more impressive than that.
And he's 14 lol.

 

[SpiderMad]

Aklo is my younger brother and can stomp you and 95 percent of the other people in this thread with the current crappy link. His melee link was pretty impressive too, although he mains fox because melee link is still melee link. He's just a good player, and was certainly not being carried by link. 80 percent zair and boomerang? Where did you hear that from? No one here has even seen him play. He's far more impressive than that.
And he's 14 lol.

I would have loved to see video of him beating all those NY and other players in any fashion, probably even more so with 80% Zair and rang while Emukiller was at his best anyways. Cursed be non-recorded matches.

Oh hey Mewtwo talk

I still think he's really good, in 3.0 he could easily survive on rather basic tools, but he still had so many more intricate and cool things that were never really explored fully because they just weren't really necessary. Now, he'll have to put those to use to be effective, but I think once he's explored more he'll be a top 10 contender. Seriously Hover is the greatest thing ever

I still think Diddys really good, in 3.0 he could easily survive on rather basic tools, but he still had so many more intricate and cool things that were never really explored fully because they just weren't really necessary. Now, he'll have to put those to use to be effective, but I think once he's explored more he'll be a top 10 contender. Seriously Peanut gun AD is the greatest thing ever

Oh no wait, you guys might be removing it. I'm glad your cool mechanic is close enough to Melee to warrant existing.

 

[Ogopogo]

I *do* feel bad for Link mains, this character has been trash in so many versions of Smash.

Save Link plz

At least Link was good in at least one version of one Smash game. Luigi, on the other hand...

loogee is such a trooper :')

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I would have loved to see video of him beating all those NY and other players in any fashion, probably even more so with 80% Zair and rang. Cursed be non-recorded matches.

Plot twist.
There are no videos.

 

[foxygrandpa]

I would have loved to see video of him beating all those NY and other players in any fashion, probably even more so with 80% Zair and rang. Cursed be non-recorded matches.

There are a couple of doubles matches floating around somewhere, but yeah, it wouldve been cool if some of his matches were recorded. He's not really content with the new link, and is convinced that roy beats some of the top tiers like fox and sheik, so he'll probably bring that out a lot more. I doubt he'll drop link though, so maybe one day we'll get some incoming vids if we go to another tournament some time in the near future.

 

[Soft Serve]

Aklo is my younger brother and can stomp you and 95 percent of the other people in this thread with the current crappy link. His melee link was pretty impressive too, although he mains fox because melee link is still melee link. He's just a good player, and was certainly not being carried by link. 80 percent zair and boomerang? Where did you hear that from? No one here has even seen him play. He's far more impressive than that.
And he's 14 lol.

I got that from word of mouth through this/tier list thread lol

Wasnt trying to say aklo is bad, I know all about child smash geniuses, with SS in AZ

 

[~Frozen~]

I can't wait for the day Aklo shows up to majors and takes names. Yall ain't ready

 

[SpiderMad]

I can't wait for the day Aklo shows up to majors and takes names. Yall ain't ready

Isn't the dream him vs Lunchables? Two child prodigy link mains with pocket roys

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So can we just have Fox and Captain Falcon switch techrolls and Up-B landing lag because it makes sense?

 

[Frost | Odds]

^ I like this idea, though I'd need to improve my Switch Off Bowser tech every time Falcon is picked

 

[InfinityCollision]

he beat M2k in Mewtwo dittos though.

As of SKTAR3, M2K was actually pretty bad at PM 3.02 Mewtwo. He only had success with him because 1) he's damn good at the game and 2) Mewtwo's kit was pretty solid even if you didn't abuse his more broken tools.

And there were like 5 other characters who were as broken as Mewtwo.

Eh, have to disagree with that. 20XX Mewtwo was (and to an extent still is) very real. So much potential went under- or un-utilized in 3.02 because of how easy it was to just abuse teleport and hover shenanigans, yet he still enjoyed quite a bit of success. Mewtwo was broke as all hell, I'd say only two or three characters were even in the same ballpark.

We'll see where his meta goes this time around. and how much of it survives into 4.0

 

[Apollo Ali]

link was beaten to death with the nerfbat imo. he went from being a newbslayer that was fine at higher play to okay at midlevel play but totally buns once you go higher up.

Nah I don't agree with this. He still has some great matchups versus chars who struggle deal with long distance zoning. His jab is still ridic. Also, imo, like Frozen said about Mewtwo, he was never fully explored because he had simpler, more effective options. His tough matchups did become worse though.

 

[mimgrim]

Sonic is still easy peasy to use but now you can't just go lol Down Special combo. DD camp, Dtilt, Uthrow, Fair, and Uair all day erry day.

I can do better with him then other characters I am more interested in and play more often.

It's disgusting. But at the same time it is oddly fun.

 

[Deleted member]

So can we just have Fox and Captain Falcon switch techrolls and Up-B landing lag because it makes sense?

dear god no shut your mouth CF is already obnoxious at least let him stay ****ty so people dont play him as much

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

dear god no shut your mouth CF is already obnoxious at least let him stay ****ty so people dont play him as much

True.

Gonna hold my stance on the ****ter techs and Up-B lag for Fox The people who defend him say glass cannon so ****ing much I'd like to give them their wish

 

[Deleted member]

True.

Gonna hold my stance on the ****ter techs and Up-B lag for Fox The people who defend him say glass cannon so ****ing much I'd like to give them their wish

when you see "fox is a glass cannon" just assume they have no idea what they're talking about

not everything is an opinion. some people are just plain wrong.

 

[mimgrim]

dear god no shut your mouth CF is already obnoxious at least let him stay ****ty so people dont play him as much

Falcon is like, at least, the third most played character at my locals. Only character that might be played a bit more is Ganon and spacies (Fox/Falco).

 

[jtm94]

Sonic is still easy peasy to use but now you can't just go lol Down Special combo. DD camp, Dtilt, Uthrow, Fair, and Uair all day erry day.

I can do better with him then other characters I am more interested in and play more often.

It's disgusting. But at the same time it is oddly fun.

You got the right idea, except DownB still combos. Literately jump into any aerial...
I still think dd camping is and was always safer though.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Falcon is like, at least, the third most played character at my locals. Only character that might be played a bit more is Ganon and spacies (Fox/Falco).

vSpacies?

and G&W is the true glass cannon.

Puff is like, a paper mache wiffleball bat?

 

[Boiko]

There are a couple of doubles matches floating around somewhere, but yeah, it wouldve been cool if some of his matches were recorded. He's not really content with the new link, and is convinced that roy beats some of the top tiers like fox and sheik, so he'll probably bring that out a lot more. I doubt he'll drop link though, so maybe one day we'll get some incoming vids if we go to another tournament some time in the near future.

THE FLEX ZONE.
I'm only like 20-30 minutes away from you guys. Vidiot already knows all about it, ask him for deets. I'll make sure all of the hype matches get streamed or recorded.

 

[Foo]

when you see "fox is a glass cannon" just assume they have no idea what they're talking about

not everything is an opinion. some people are just plain wrong.

No, fox IS a glass cannon*




*just a cannon made from that potassium enriched glass. You know, the one that, at 1 inch thick, can survive a bowling ball being dropped from 10 meters.

vSpacies?

and G&W is the true glass cannon.

Puff is like, a paper mache wiffleball bat?

I wouldn't call Gwuubs a glass cannon. He is light, so he's easy to kill, but he's also super friggen hard to combo because he breaks out of any non-frame perfect combo. He also has one of the best recoveries in the game this patch, while being nearly impossible to gimp. He isn't the safest character, but I think he's far from a glass cannon. Falco(n) are the only closest things to glass cannons imo.


Also, here's puff:

 

[jtm94]

I wouldn't call Gwuubs a glass cannon. He is light, so he's easy to kill, but he's also super friggen hard to combo because he breaks out of any non-frame perfect combo. He also has one of the best recoveries in the game this patch, while being nearly impossible to gimp. He isn't the safest character, but I think he's far from a glass cannon. Falco(n) are the only closest things to glass cannons imo.

I hate the term glass cannon, it's an overly summarizing label.
Turns out most of the conversions in this game are guaranteed via hit stun and as GnW I get hit by things that I cannot escape no matter how hard I UpB because of hit stun. He is incredible easy to combo 10/10 combo bait. And when he does escape a combo he is left above the opponent in disadvantaged position.
He has solid recovery, but is indeed light. Nowhere near impossible to gimp. No matter what he has to get close to the stage to recover. Grab edge and hit him. Any character with a bair can do it. If he goes on stage then jump on punish his landing. The only mixups he has are... recover high, recover low, recover high and double jump over attack. If he could airdodge out of UpB the I would talk about how dumb his recovery is.

 

[Foo]

I hate the term glass cannon, it's an overly summarizing label.
Turns out most of the conversions in this game are guaranteed via hit stun and as GnW I get hit by things that I cannot escape no matter how hard I UpB because of hit stun. He is incredible easy to combo 10/10 combo bait. And when he does escape a combo he is left above the opponent in disadvantaged position.
He has solid recovery, but is indeed light. Nowhere near impossible to gimp. No matter what he has to get close to the stage to recover. Grab edge and hit him. Any character with a bair can do it. If he goes on stage then jump on punish his landing. The only mixups he has are... recover high, recover low, recover high and double jump over attack. If he could airdodge out of UpB the I would talk about how dumb his recovery is.

How is he easy to combo in the slighest? Because he's a smash character? He's light and floaty. Heavy+anything=easy combo* and light+fast fall=easy combos, but light and floaty means hard to combo, easy to kill off the sides. The combined with a great combo breaker... that, when used at the right time, leads into combos.

As for his recovery, that's... that's... there are no characters in the game that have more options... Yeah, you recover low or high. What other angle is there? Infinite diddy glide toss under the stage? I guess I should have put the word "relatively" in there. You can gimp him, but due to the speed, length, and hitbox of his up-b, it's really friggin hard. He also has many options. You can go for sweetspot on ledge, but still keep your double jump. If they hold ledge they'll have to go onto stage. If they roll or regular getup, you can double jump fair. If they ledgehop or jump, you'll just grab stage. If you could airdodge out of up b, then it would just be the straight up best. I consider ZSS recovery pretty good and she has limited options that are easy to punish. In 3.02, Gwuubs had alright recover, but compared to 3.5, it's stellar. Keeping double jump after up-b is what make it so good.


*unless your name is Samus.

 

[Boiko]

Heavy+anything=easy combo

Samus would like a word.

 

[Foo]

Samus would like a word.

Hrm, maybe it's my character, but I can combo Samus pretty hard. Once you get her past 20% you can land upair-upair-nair-nair-fair for a kill. I guess samus is probably the hardest heavy character to combo though. I guess I'll edit that in.

 

[jtm94]

How is he easy to combo in the slighest? Because he's a smash character? He's light and floaty. Heavy+anything=easy combo* and light+fast fall=easy combos, but light and floaty means hard to combo, easy to kill off the sides. The combined with a great combo breaker... that, when used at the right time, leads into combos.

As for his recovery, that's... that's... there are no characters in the game that have more options... Yeah, you recover low or high. What other angle is there? Infinite diddy glide toss under the stage? I guess I should have put the word "relatively" in there. You can gimp him, but due to the speed, length, and hitbox of his up-b, it's really friggin hard. He also has many options. You can go for sweetspot on ledge, but still keep your double jump. If they hold ledge they'll have to go onto stage. If they roll or regular getup, you can double jump fair. If they ledgehop or jump, you'll just grab stage. If you could airdodge out of up b, then it would just be the straight up best. I consider ZSS recovery pretty good and she has limited options that are easy to punish. In 3.02, Gwuubs had alright recover, but compared to 3.5, it's stellar. Keeping double jump after up-b is what make it so good.


*unless your name is Samus.

He isn't that floaty. He isn't Zelda, Puff, or Samus. He falls a little faster than Ivy and Ivy isn't difficult to combo. I guess the characters I face, Yoshi, Mario, Sheik, Ness, Luigi, Sonic, DK, Marth, Roy all do not struggle to combo him.

The hitbox on his UpB isn't gigantic though. I never said it doesn't go the distance, but it isn't like Zelda or Mewtwo's teleport where he straight can't be hit. You can definitely punish his recovery and it isn't like Diddy's recovery where even if you hit him the trade would be disadvantageous for the one trying to edgeguard instead of vice-versa. Mario bair and Sheik bair both directly beat it out. He also has worse options to get onto stage compared to the rest of the cast. His only fast moves are up-air frame 3, jab 4, dtilt 5, and UpB 1, but UpB doesn't move him vertically until around frame 8 or 9 and doesn't have intangibility like a lot of recoveries have. Going high is rarely the best option, and all of his aerials bar up air are high commitment. Fair is frame 14, dair 12, nair, 20, bair 9 and all have enough landing lag to punish. It's a very balanced recovery in 3.5 because with the bucket changes he cannot keep making it back, the hitbox isn't so large that it doesn't get beat out, and it rewards you for contesting him at the edge.

 

[mimgrim]

You got the right idea, except DownB still combos. Literately jump into any aerial...
I still think dd camping is and was always safer though.

I've had bad luck with Down Special then, as I haven't been able to convert it into anything. DD camping is funner anyways though.

vSpacies?

I'm not sure what your question is here.

 

[Frost | Odds]

He's light and floaty. Heavy+anything=easy combo* and light+fast fall=easy combos, but light and floaty means hard to combo, easy to kill off the sides. The combined with a great combo breaker... that, when used at the right time, leads into combos.

You realize that being heavier reduces kB, which reduces hitstun, right? Lighter = easier to combo and easier to kill, by any meaningful metric. Even though in some situations the combo itself may not do as much net % damage, it's pretty much guaranteed to be more effective in terms of bringing you closer to killing that character.

I'm not sure what your question is here.

Not really a question. "vanilla spacies" might just be a convenient way to refer to fox and falco.

"Fox and Falco" is, of course, always a viable alternative.

...I didn't sleep last night.

 

[CORY]

now I've literally not seen a single PM M2 icon on anyone's avy and seen like 10 dorfs. I am compelled to step into the minority group.

that's just popularity. i think ganon's been 3rd or 4th most popular, in terms of usage, for a while. he's just not that great : p

 

[Foo]

You realize that being heavier reduces kB, which reduces hitstun, right? Lighter = easier to combo and easier to kill, by any meaningful metric. Even though in some situations the combo itself may not do as much net % damage, it's pretty much guaranteed to be more effective in terms of bringing you closer to killing that character.

Yes, I understand that it reduces hitstun (that's why I said light+fast fall=easy combos), but they get sent farther away. If a character can run faster than their opponent is being sent, and has very low lag, this can aid in comboing. Otherwise, being sent farther makes it harder for your opponent to follow up, especially since you will have a longer time to DI. Fall speed, when sent upwards, effectively decreases the distance you are sent, but with the same hitstun. If game and watch fell quickly, or faster in general, he'd be easier to combo. He isn't the floatiest character, but he's up there. He's almost in the top 10 floatiest characters.