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Tier List Speculation

Frost | Odds

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He's a bit floaty, but not prohibitively so, considering his extremely light weight.

Another factor that contributes to his combo-food-ness is his lack of a fast sex kick or other similar aerial panic button. Yes, he can up-B, but that'll most of the time just land him in the same situation where hes started, only now without the upB option.

Obviously not the most vulnerable character in the game, but between the above, his kinda bad shield, and his physics, he gets slapped around pretty hard.
 

mimgrim

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You know. I often see 3.5 ZSS being called a Falcon with a gun with a hint of Sheik but I don't think that comparison fits all that well. She just doesn't seem all that similar to Falcon to me. I find her to be more like Sonic with a hint of Sheik instead. Her Dtilt and Utilt are good combo starters, like Sonic's Dtilt and Utilt. Her Dair and his Fair are good combo starters as well that can combo into themselves with bad DI. Both their Uairs are good juggle moves and fine as kill moves. Both their Bairs are kill moves. I just think she has more similarities with Sonic then Falcon and is basically a worse Sonic.
 

Akhenderson

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Yay bad tier lists. I'm just bored.

No ordering within lines and all that crap bigger gap means bigger difference.

:fox:
:wolf::samus2:
:ike::marth::roypm::mewtwopm::sonic::diddy::mario2::metaknight::falco::sheik:

:squirtle::snake::wario::zerosuitsamus::charizard::link2::toonlink::ivysaur::peach::pit::falcon::yoshi2::lucas::rob:
:dedede::luigi2::ness2::kirby2::lucario::ness2::gw::pikachu2:
:olimar::bowser2::ganondorf::dk2::popo::jigglypuff:
man, ness is so strong, he's in there TWICE (but seriously, he's at least mid to high, there's no way that character is low tier.
 

mimgrim

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Do you see labels of top/low in my list? :L

I purposely avoid them.

The section he is in is more of being in the middle anyways. The section below him is more of being in the lower end. And the one directly above him is more of the higher. Just the gap between the 3 are pretty freaking low. The sections above the higher end are the top spectrum of characters basically.

But's it's pretty bad tier list anyway that I made out of boredom. So don't take it too seriously. When I attempt, if I ever will, a serious tier list you will know it because there will be actual explanations to it. :L
 

Ogopogo

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Luigi, Ness, Yoshi for upper level.
Why do you think they're so high? not that I'm saying Luigi's low but have you ever knocked a Luigi off a stage? Just asking for your thoughts.
 
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DrinkingFood

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I mean I agree with Fox being either the best or top tier, but he shouldn't be there alone. Really there might even be some matchups in Melee he used to barely win that go even now because finding a hole in the run-away laser game doesn't cost you as huge of a portion in laser damage. Peach maybe, she even got considerable buffs both from the engine and character specific changes, like being able to approach with RAR FC bair, pull turnips falling off a platform, access the edge from the stage way more quickly. Dunno as much about that matchup as I should since I play Falco in Melee, but those seem like significant changes.

And that's just out of the Melee top/high tiers; there's also former mid/lows and brawl newbies, I'm sure out of those are some generally good characters that also have winning/even matchups against fox and probably could sit alongside him in top tier.
 

jtm94

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Why do you think they're so high? not that I'm saying Luigi's low but have you ever knocked a Luigi off a stage? Just asking for your thoughts.
I played against a Luigi main in my extended playgroup for several hours last weekend using GnW mostly, but a little Sheik/Zelda. My thoughts are that his burst movement via wavedash and DownB is hard for me to react to even when I'm expecting it allowing him to hit me across the stage where I feel safe. As GnW I can kind of stick out hitboxes and they do stuff. I can stuff most of his approaches with bair, but he got wise to this after a while and started wavedashing in to grab my attacks and then it becomes difficult to act. He can apply some decent shield pressure and all of his moves push him too far away to punish oos. He is quite difficult to combo and nair is annoying as AGWI#$%#. In the GnW MU we literately took turns 0 deathing eachother, no exaggeration. GnW can combo floaties and mid weights pretty well with his UpB. We also both edgeguarded eachother hard. Luigi's recovery however is much more resilient than GnW's because missile always stalls the same amount every time and DownB is useful more than once unlike Mario. I also got extremely annoyed at misfire because it has invincibility on startup and most of his kills were off of it since he can set it up and save it.... I wish I could save 9 hammer.

Ness is really good still. I was concerned the downthrow change was too much, but I was still getting downthrown into either fair or bair which followed by more of the same move. His recovery is quirky, but also oddly annoying. You have to time hitting it right because of invincibility, but he still dies to dumb stuff like me jumping into PKT if he's too close. Fsmash was also hitting me an unnerving distance through the ledge. He still doesn't have ways to get in, but PK Fire, dash attack, and fair are all pretty good. Oh and his dair is good or something.

Yoshi still has really good options. His bair functions similarly as Ness's fair, just a wall of a hitbox he can move around weirdly with. dtilt, utilt, nair, uair, dair are still god. Eggroll still combos guaranteed into things, it's just more of a commitment as it should be. Also he has good MUs from what I hear against Marth and Roy who I expect to be quite popular now. I honestly put him above average in 3.02, and now he is marginally better by comparison. He doesn't need Parry to function as a character he can freaking jump out of shield, he just has a shield that shouldn't be shield poked and can counter grabs... that's good I guess.

Fox is still god overall. Things like RAR float cancel Peach bair are really tiny nuances that don't change the MU as a whole. The MU when played correctly by both was in Fox's favor in Melee, and I honestly don't think the new engine benefits her so greatly it makes the MU even. Think about how Fox benefits from the new mechanics. Do you know how good RAR bair edge cancel into ledge grab is? He can b reverse lasers to augment momentum, but that's tiny imo, still has boost grab, still has shine, and can AGT turnips back to help him recover. I honestly think if anything his moves are more able to abuse the new mechanics than Peach's can.

And on the topic of Fox being joined by others... If he's joined by others that means that other characters handle the rest of the cast like he does. Even if they did he would likely beat them anyways and that's enough for them to be placed lower on tier lists. The way I see it is that characters with really good grabs into good things could sway the MU, but they will never beat him in neutral. All that PM has done to Fox is make his MUs more volatile, but he still wins them on paper, in theory, in game. I honestly don't think anyone in the game has a neutral game that compares to Fox's besides 3.02 Diddy, Sonic, and Mewtwo. For example, Wizzrobe had/has super flowchart moves on Fox to drag him off stage and gimp him, but he had to actually hit him. Yes I think he got outplayed by Zero at CEO, but we saw that the MU still wasn't free for Sonic even with his amazing movement and ability to KO him off of a single interaction. It was eye-opening because Fox somehow won the neutral against a character faster than him, and almost built to punish him. Think of this, a character that simply KOd Fox upon touching him once, but still lost neutral, is at high level play worse than him. The game is balanced for high level play, and the only way to balance Fox without touching him, is to make a character better than him. Look back at 3.02 and tell me he was not a contender for top tier then, and that he is not the best now. I can go on about how M2K said that Mewtwo completely demolished Fox because he could touch him and kill him, but then against Emukiller(who I think was arguably better at the character) M2K counterpicked Fox against Mewtwo and just didn't let him touch him.

TL:DR Real talk. Fox's meta is developed, but after a decade of smash other character's meta games are developing much faster than 2005 Fox. No matter what, if you look at Fox's tool kit, you can not tell me he does not win the neutral against every character currently in the game.
 
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Strong Badam

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I mean I agree with Fox being either the best or top tier, but he shouldn't be there alone. Really there might even be some matchups in Melee he used to barely win that go even now because finding a hole in the run-away laser game doesn't cost you as huge of a portion in laser damage. Peach maybe, she even got considerable buffs both from the engine and character specific changes, like being able to approach with RAR FC bair, pull turnips falling off a platform, access the edge from the stage way more quickly. Dunno as much about that matchup as I should since I play Falco in Melee, but those seem like significant changes.

And that's just out of the Melee top/high tiers; there's also former mid/lows and brawl newbies, I'm sure out of those are some generally good characters that also have winning/even matchups against fox and probably could sit alongside him in top tier.
Are you considering PM's stagelist? Often the characters (outside of Fox & Falco themselves) who did best against them had a chaingrab or similar tactic aided heavily by Final Destination. In a Best of 5 set, this was forced. In PM, a Fox or Falco can ALWAYS avoid Final Destination, and has a plethora of stages that aid them against most characters (Distant Planet, WarioWare, Smashville, PS2, YS), often leaving their opponents with fewer options that compare in strength.
 

Foo

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You know. I often see 3.5 ZSS being called a Falcon with a gun with a hint of Sheik but I don't think that comparison fits all that well. She just doesn't seem all that similar to Falcon to me. I find her to be more like Sonic with a hint of Sheik instead. Her Dtilt and Utilt are good combo starters, like Sonic's Dtilt and Utilt. Her Dair and his Fair are good combo starters as well that can combo into themselves with bad DI. Both their Uairs are good juggle moves and fine as kill moves. Both their Bairs are kill moves. I just think she has more similarities with Sonic then Falcon and is basically a worse Sonic.
Don't you dare compare her to that... that... thing!
 

shairn

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That depends on rules. In a ruleset with BO5 no bans like ours you still have a guaranteed CP to FD or GHZ.
 

Ultimate Sneeze

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Whenever I see someone critique a tier list with "There's no way x character is that low!" It seems accurate until you actually try putting together a tier list of your own... The thing is, in terms of relative viability, almost all of the cast is good, but some of them have to be on the lower end of good.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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You know. I often see 3.5 ZSS being called a Falcon with a gun with a hint of Sheik but I don't think that comparison fits all that well. She just doesn't seem all that similar to Falcon to me. I find her to be more like Sonic with a hint of Sheik instead. Her Dtilt and Utilt are good combo starters, like Sonic's Dtilt and Utilt. Her Dair and his Fair are good combo starters as well that can combo into themselves with bad DI. Both their Uairs are good juggle moves and fine as kill moves. Both their Bairs are kill moves. I just think she has more similarities with Sonic then Falcon and is basically a worse Sonic.
And somehow you fail to realize that the unspeakable crapsack is archetypically Falcon-based.

Bolded part is pure bull****.
 

Frost | Odds

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Whenever I see someone critique a tier list with "There's no way x character is that low!" It seems accurate until you actually try putting together a tier list of your own... The thing is, in terms of relative viability, almost all of the cast is good, but some of them have to be on the lower end of good.
People have always been saying this, but only now has it started to really be true. The only really bad characters at this point are Puff, Olimar, and maybe Pikachu. Some are still more equal than others, but a meaningful tier list has become a pretty tough proposition.
 

The_NZA

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Didn't he also get 2-0'd by a 12 year old link player who's game plan was like 80% boomerang and Zair?
Emu himself has said he doesn't think he is that great and he just got carried by playing/developing a broken character.
He is good but calling him one of the best players ever is a bit of a stretch.

M2 is definitely still very good in 3.5. He doesn't have TP hover, but thats really the biggest noticable change (tail size difference hardly matters, uptilt nerf hurts), and his dtilt got buffed. I think he does well vs the other really good characters, I can see him being considered top 10-15 still.
I heard a lot of Texas loses to a 14 year old.

Low Age Heroes.

We had a 12 year old come to SG this thursday, going by the tag 20XX. He had only been playing against computers and was playing against humans for the first time in a tournament. Kid was multishining between stocks.
 
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Ace55

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So can we just have Fox and Captain Falcon switch techrolls and Up-B landing lag because it makes sense?
Lol, no I think 30 frames landing lag on a move that already has serious startup would be a bit much.

I'm still of the opinion that going full PAL mode on him in addition to the shine and laser nerfs would be a good place to start.
 

Choice Scarf

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Hey @ Frost | Odds Frost | Odds I'm curious but why do think Pika is bad? The most common impression I see most people have of Pika is that they don't really know him but think he's mid-ish tier (Axe influence probably), so seeing your particular disdain against Pika is interesting. I can't really tell from your previous posts but you seem to imply it has to do more with his design than his MU spread. Or perhaps it's how he's not really worth the effort?

Not trying to bash you or anything, I'm just trying to better identify the flaws of my main.
 

Akhenderson

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Lol, no I think 30 frames landing lag on a move that already has serious startup would be a bit much.

I'm still of the opinion that going full PAL mode on him in addition to the shine and laser nerfs would be a good place to start.
Ness and Lucas, who has a similar linear way of recovering like Fox, has 20 frames of landing lag, while Fox only has 6.
Where is the balance logic in this?
 

jtm94

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Ness and Lucas, who has a similar linear way of recovering like Fox, has 20 frames of landing lag, while Fox only has 6.
Where is the balance logic in this?
Fox is also currently much stronger on stage. Lucas was amazing on stage, so they hit him accordingly.
Ness/Lucas also have some invincibility and better hitboxes on their UpBs in contrast to Fox's, but it is dumb that Fox's combos into up air...
 

Ace55

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Ness and Lucas, who has a similar linear way of recovering like Fox, has 20 frames of landing lag, while Fox only has 6.
Where is the balance logic in this?
Did not know Ness now has 20 frames landing lag, aside from his upB being a hell of a lot more intimidating I agree that's pretty harsh, especially with Fox having another good recovery option. But like I said, I don't support NTSC upB, I'd just rather see it's distance nerfed vs adding landing lag.
 
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Frost | Odds

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@ Choice Scarf Choice Scarf

Basically, Pikachu was relatively successful in the Melee environment because of his incredible gimping ability combined with his own very good recovery, as well as a definite, straightforward way to secure onstage kills via his usmash. His playstyle in Melee is dictated mostly by his dependence on using his mobility in neutral to hit nairs and/or grabs.

As any Pikachu player will recognize, Fox does pretty much all the same stuff, but dramatically better. He can force gimps from further on stage with waveshines, shine spikes, and other shenangians. His neutral is much safer, due to tools like nair/drill -> shine on shield. His grab has better followups. He has much easier kills off the top (due to the additional tool of uair) and the sides (his ridiculous bair). Fox's combo game is better, and more reliable. The one thing at which Pikachu is really significantly better is getting extremely deep gimps offstage. Pika's fsmash is also disjointed and pretty cool, but not terribly practical in most situations, and not remotely comparable to the utility of Fox's moveset.

In addition to these, Fox has the invaluable ability to force opponents to approach him with lasers. As the attacker is always at a disadvantage, in this respect Fox almost by definition has the neutral game skewed in his favor. He's a character ostensibly designed for offense, with the tools to break in past any defense -- but who has the luxury of picking his battles rather than constantly needing to force openings.

So, in Melee, Pikachu isn't just a worse Fox. He's a dramatically worse Fox.

In PM, the situation changes a bit. Pikachu is mostly the same, though he has a shiny new bair (which, to my limited understanding, quite resembles Fox's in frame data and utility) and the ability to QAC out of the first half of his up-B, which provides a couple highly limited/telegraphed movement options. He also gains the ability to RAR (or QAC) into his shiny new bair, and therefore it's a little bit easier to get opponents offstage. Fantastic! As an additional modest buff, he gets the ability to B-reverse his thunder and Jolt - which provide new options for edgeguarding and the neutral respectively. It's safe to say that Pikachu is, in PM, significantly better in relation to Fox.

Unfortunately for Pikachu, the game has also changed. Though it's not nearly so prevalent as in 3.0, there are still many more characters in PM that can out-camp Pikachu by some means - be it mobility or projectile walls.

More significantly, the average recovery in PM is much, much better and more versatile than the average recovery in Melee, and thereby much more difficult to gimp.

This, itself, means two things.

First, Pikachu's good recovery is no longer nearly as strong in relation to the cast as it was in Melee -- it's also important to note that Pikachu's recovery takes many orders of magnitude to use properly than any other recovery in the game. Without MANY hours of practice effort, Pikachu's recovery is in fact worse than many other characters'! Axe has been quoted saying that he practices Pikachu's recovery daily. For hours. That's the kind of effort it takes for him to optimize this one aspect of his game that pretty much any other character can take for granted.

Second, it means that Pikachu's single most defining characteristic - his ability to gimp, is neither as unique nor nearly as effective as it was in Melee. Let's look at Captain Falcon, for example. Say he's offstage without his double jump, roughly on an even plane with the ledge such that he could land on stage with his upB if he did it soon enough. In Melee, he'd have 3 options: he can go high with his upB and try to land onstage, go high and grab edge, or go low and grab edge. In this situation, Pikachu can easily gimp him 100% of the time, no problem. In PM, not only is Falcon's upB much longer (so he has more drifting mixups with it, as well as the ability to make this choice from further away), but he has the additional option to Raptor Boost to challenge a possible edgeguard attempt. In this situation, Pikachu's gimping ability is much less certain, and he could even die to a Raptor spike if he makes the wrong edgeguarding option select.

That's just one example, but I think it's fairly typical for what I'm driving at. Pikachu's strengths are effectively watered down from Melee based on the new environment, and I just don't think the buffs he was given are enough to offset the weaknesses he's always had: weak range, outclassed projectile, etc. Even former Melee top/high tiers with whom Pikachu used to struggle have recieved similar sorts of buffs: Sheik/Fox/Peach can RAR just as well as Pikachu can.

I could be completely wrong, but that's my impression on the matter. I don't play Pikachu, but I love watching him. It saddens me to watch Axe feel that he has to play characters other than his one true love, even in PM. Basically what it comes down to is that a bunch of other characters do most of what Pikachu does, but better and/or with significantly less effort, including but hardly limited to Kirby, Toon Link, Fox, and possibly even Squirtle. There doesn't seem to be any real reason to play Pika, and that makes me a sad panda.
 
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DrinkingFood

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Are you considering PM's stagelist? Often the characters (outside of Fox & Falco themselves) who did best against them had a chaingrab or similar tactic aided heavily by Final Destination. In a Best of 5 set, this was forced. In PM, a Fox or Falco can ALWAYS avoid Final Destination, and has a plethora of stages that aid them against most characters (Distant Planet, WarioWare, Smashville, PS2, YS), often leaving their opponents with fewer options that compare in strength.
Herp I hadn't considered that. Personally I'm of the opinion that we should move to a minimal stagelist though, 8-10 stages with 1-2 bans in 2/3 and 0-1 ban in 3/5. I feel it's a better system. I think it's worth noting that GHZ's platform moving the way it does provides an environment similar to FD's in that CGs that work guaranteed on FD work 9/10 times still on GHZ since the only opportunity for escape is at center stage with good timing, and the thrower haa a certain degree of control over throw timing to reduce the likelihood that a spacie can tech the platform. Add also the stage itself being small and the ceiling high, it seems to me an equally valid CP against fox/falco were you to have 1 ban in Bo5 and FD gets striked. Or if you go 0 bans Bo5 that particular issue is eliminated altogether or even flipped since GHZ is unbannable too.
 

mimgrim

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Lol at the Sonic hate. If the character can still incur those kinds of reactions from people it might be wroth maining him just for that rofl. And other then DD camping I don't really see Sonic as all the similar to Falcon.

But hey, like most people on this thread, I probably don't know what I'm talking about half the time anyway.
 

Choice Scarf

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Thanks for clearing that up @ Frost | Odds Frost | Odds . I feel like the only appeal I could argue is the uniqueness of his specials, but those aren't even great options or cohesive with his playstyle outside of QAC. I don't really know if he'll ever get enough reward to justify all of the effort, unless he's given tweaks on most of his movement and like a third zip on QA or something. Pika really needs more love.
 

Strong Badam

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Herp I hadn't considered that. Personally I'm of the opinion that we should move to a minimal stagelist though, 8-10 stages with 1-2 bans in 2/3 and 0-1 ban in 3/5. I feel it's a better system. I think it's worth noting that GHZ's platform moving the way it does provides an environment similar to FD's in that CGs that work guaranteed on FD work 9/10 times still on GHZ since the only opportunity for escape is at center stage with good timing, and the thrower haa a certain degree of control over throw timing to reduce the likelihood that a spacie can tech the platform. Add also the stage itself being small and the ceiling high, it seems to me an equally valid CP against fox/falco were you to have 1 ban in Bo5 and FD gets striked. Or if you go 0 bans Bo5 that particular issue is eliminated altogether or even flipped since GHZ is unbannable too.
GHZ's ceiling is very average (BF height). It is not high.
 
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Most of the reason it is considered high is simply because the camera/the stage itself is kind of low
 
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steelguttey

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pikachu is bad cus he has stubby arms and no more burst movement to compensate. he needs more mixup potential and actually do something in neutral except dash dance and short hop uair
 

trash?

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GHZ's ceiling is very average (BF height). It is not high.
but you're, on average, not going near the top as often. you shouldn't look at ceilings through just checking blast zone heights, compare the distance between that ceiling and where you're most likely to get hit upwards; in GHZ's case, that's either at the main stage, or slightly less commonly, when the platform is at its lowest, since you'll rarely see the platform ever come into use otherwise

so yeah, DF's point still holds a good amount of water, since with that in mind, it's more than high enough to survive in its current context
 
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jtm94

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but you're, on average, not going near the top as often. you shouldn't look at ceilings through just checking blast zone heights, compare the distance between that ceiling and where you're most likely to get hit upwards; in GHZ's case, that's either at the main stage, or slightly less commonly, when the platform is at its lowest, since you'll rarely see the platform ever come into use otherwise

so yeah, DF's point still holds a good amount of water, since with that in mind, it's more than high enough to survive in its current context
GHZ is 5 units higher than battlefield. It's soooooo high.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

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pikachu is bad cus he has stubby arms and no more burst movement to compensate. he needs more mixup potential and actually do something in neutral except dash dance and short hop uair
Just do Axe things
GHZ's ceiling is very average (BF height). It is not high.
Is the ceiling on Yoshi's Island smaller then those? Idr its height anymore.
edit: yes I changed my ava
 
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steelguttey

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lets play a drinking game

every time ez changes his avatar to another cute anime girl drink cyanide
 

Binary Clone

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lets play a drinking game

every time ez changes his avatar to another cute anime girl drink cyanide
Well I guess that's it, then.

bye guys



Also, lots of startup on recovery, in a good few matchups, doesn't really matter much at all, especially if you take the proper angle. I mean, yeah there's startup for Fox's recovery, but you can also angle it any way you want, plus you have the sideB recovery option, you can ride walls to sweetspot, he has a stall, and he can walljump.

With that kind of neutral, I think having startup and more than 6 frames landing lag isn't going to hurt that much, especially with the Ness comparison.
 
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Frost | Odds

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I'm bored and hate studying for exams, so slightly revised list based on new data and new misconceptions.

Also, I remembered some things about Yoshi.

Lists are ordered, left is best.

Fox Tier::fox:

Not Fox Tier (Top)::yoshi2::samus2::marth::rob::wolf::mewtwopm::roypm::falco::mario2::sheik::metaknight::lucas:

Not Fox Tier (Not Top): :falcon::ike::peach::sonic::snake::diddy::gw:

Quite Viable Tier::charizard::toonlink::warioc::zerosuitsamus::dk2::link2::kirby2:

Probably Quite Viable Tier: :ivysaur::pit::dedede::zelda::squirtle::ganondorf::bowser2::ness2::luigi2:

Why Bother Tier::pikachu2::jigglypuff::olimar:

I have No Idea Where To Put This Thing Tier: :lucario::popo:
 
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Hinichii.ez.™

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I'm bored and hate studying for exams, so slightly revised list based on new data and new misconceptions.

Also, I remembered some things about Yoshi.

Fox Tier::fox:

Not Fox Tier (Top)::yoshi2::samus2::marth::rob::wolf::mewtwopm::roypm::falco::mario2::sheik::lucas:

Not Fox Tier (Not Top): :falcon::ike::peach::sonic::snake::diddy::gw:

Quite Viable Tier::charizard::toonlink::warioc::zerosuitsamus::dk2::link2::kirby2:

Probably Quite Viable Tier: :pit::zelda::dedede::squirtle::ganondorf::ivysaur::bowser2::ness2::luigi2:

Why Bother Tier::pikachu2::jigglypuff::olimar:

I have No Idea Where To Put This Thing Tier: :lucario::popo:
Missed mk
 
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