Tier List Speculation

[TreK]

^ Have you tried edgeguarding Olimar yet ?

I haven't
because I have never needed to

(gross exaggeration but you get my point)

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

People keep saying that Oli isn't fun to play, without ever explaining why. So, uh, why do you think so?

Suck answer, he sucks
Long answer, he sucks balls

 

[steelguttey]

no

olimar isnt fun thats not a thing

unless your kind of fun is dying alot

 

[PlateProp]

Guys guys, most accurate tier list yet


SSSSSS+ Tier: Resting Jiggs

SSSS: Ganon Sword taunt

S: Everyone but

Trash: Melee top 4

Clearly it is best and there is no bias what so ever

 

[Foo]

Noo don't say that, You'll alert the ZSS boards to come and tell you you're wrong

ZSS is pretty good though, although her offstage is depressing and fully charged blasters aren't even an option because of how easy they are to power-shield and how telegraphed they are. Still she's got the fast+good DD+ Uair string thing going on, with great spacing tools in her tilts, and great whiff punishes in her dsmash/grab

>.> please. I can't believe how much I have to say this.

Just because ZSS players have complained so much about the changes doesn't mean we think she is bad this patch. Nobody over there says she sucks, we just don't like her new playstyle. It changed from hyper aggro to camp in one patch.

Also, her offstage game is pretty solid. If you make use of down-b, walljumps, up-b boosts, and air dodge you can recover high. You also have the option (when getting edge hogged) of tether hopping and holding back then retethering. Also, her grab is an awful whiff punish. Best case scenario (if they don't DI properly. Same DI works for every throw), you get a chance for a tech chase (they often hit the ground before you are out of lag). She has the worst throws in the game right now. Her other primary weakness is her kill power. It's better now, but still fairly weak. If they SDI your fair, you'll NEVER kill out of combos, so you usually have to hit a raw bair or downsmash. That's what is keeping her in the mid tiers

 

[Avro-Arrow]

But this is all wrong. Did you know Samus' missile can sometimes go through ROB's side-b reflector and hit him (yes, during the reflector frames) The sheik matchup is way worse than 60:40 lmao, she counters almost everything ROB is. Yes, he does have some pretty serious goddamn flaws, like his ****ty dash dance/wavedash/awful grounded mobility, still a pretty small shield, some of the worst rolls in the game and short get-up/tech rolls for such a large character, terrible aerial mobility without committing to his boosts, no anti-airs, CC ability that pretends to be reliable but actually is 50/50 reward/return-to-neutral against knowledgeable players (DI up gets you out of dsmash but gets you hit by usmash or dtilt while DI down lets you CC usmash launcher or dtilt but gets you caught in dsmash [strictly worse than Samus or Peach's CCs with are always heavily advantageous on hit]), I could go on because there's a lot more. ROB also has trouble with characters who can quickly outreach him in the air to end his staggered fair chains; characters like DDD, zard, or kirby who have hard hitting aerials that can vary the timing with which they come down (because of multi jumps) so that he can't reliably take them out with upairs but also can't CC their hits; hard hitters that approach from a long distance like falcon; fast small characters that are hard to hit with projectiles (diddy/squirtle/MK/Sheik/sonic/others). The characters ROB had problems with in the previous versions were characters he had problems with for reasons that haven't been addressed, because they can't be addressed because his design, in terms of balance, is difficult to address or work with. The only thing he gained in this version (factoring in changes to other characters) is a slightly improved punish game due to being able to take advantage of worse recoveries. That doesn't move you from bottom 15-20 to top 10. I'm pretty confident you know next to nothing about ROB so there's no way we can have an even discussion about him without me writing a guide and making you read it.

If he's so bad, why play him? Seems like it'd be no fun to me. What can he do that makes him fun and competitive to play as?

 

[_Chrome]

Hey everyone, I was active on the thread probably weeks ago, but I've been watching it and I have my own tier list for 3.5. Keep in mind that it's just speculation and I haven't played too much of this update since I'm at school and it's exam time. I know that there are mistakes, and I'd like your criticism so we can make an edited and community based tier list. Thanks!

Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier

 

[GP&B]

Ike appears to be void tier on your list.

 

[_Chrome]

Ike appears to be void tier on your list.

Aww sh*t I had it on one I sent to my bro, hold on. I actually thought about his placement dammit. Thanks!

 

[Ultimate Sneeze]

Okay, so instead of doing homework, I made a big matchup chart with my basic perceptions of how matchups go in this game (some of which I really didn't have an idea about, so I just guessed). I typically went for smaller numbers, because I'd rather under-exaggerate strengths and weaknesses and then figure out that I'm wrong about them. For the tier gaps, I took the greatest gaps in the averages and separated them there). Keep in mind this is technically a WIP, and I'll update it when I learn more about certain characters/matchups. After the list, I'll post my thoughts about where I feel I'm wrong, among other stuff. Feel free to criticize. a / between characters means that the average matchup value for them actually ended up tying.

SS Tier (55.488)
/

S Tier (54.390)


A+ Tier (51.220-53.293)
/ /

A Tier (47.439-50.366) -- Couldn't find a good spot to split this one up
/ / / //

A- Tier (45.366-46.707)


B Tier (44.024)


Generally for matchup values, I used 45:55 or 50:50, straying a bit into 40:60 and 35:65, and then I think once or twice into 30:70. Like I said, I'm keeping it moderate, at least at first. I think I was too nice to Ivysaur definitely, it shows that I don't know much about the character. Generally though, the matchup average was around 11 from highest to lowest, 55 being the highest and 44 being the lowest. I think there's a bigger difference, but overall, the viability of the cast isn't that much different. This list also doesn't take into account the matchups against more common characters being more important.

Yeah, definitely a scrubby list, especially since its basically just impressions after not even a month of 3.5 from someone who isn't a high level player, but it's a baseline to start from.

Edit: Added averages for clarity

Edit 2: Spread spoiler? I'll try to find a way to format it better.

Edit 3: I actually have somewhere to be, and since those were a failure, I'm going to delete them and work on it later.

 

[Rizner]

Okay, so instead of doing homework, I made a big matchup chart with my basic perceptions of how matchups go in this game (some of which I really didn't have an idea about, so I just guessed). I typically went for smaller numbers, because I'd rather under-exaggerate strengths and weaknesses and then figure out that I'm wrong about them. For the tier gaps, I took the greatest gaps in the averages and separated them there). Keep in mind this is technically a WIP, and I'll update it when I learn more about certain characters/matchups. After the list, I'll post my thoughts about where I feel I'm wrong, among other stuff. Feel free to criticize. a / between characters means that the average matchup value for them actually ended up tying.

SS Tier
/

S Tier


A+ Tier
/ /

A Tier
/ / / //

A- Tier


B Tier


Generally for matchup values, I used 45:55 or 50:50, straying a bit into 40:60 and 35:65, and then I think once or twice into 30:70. Like I said, I'm keeping it moderate, at least at first. I think I was too nice to Ivysaur definitely, it shows that I don't know much about the character. Generally though, the matchup average was around 11 from highest to lowest, 55 being the highest and 44 being the lowest. I think there's a bigger difference, but overall, the viability of the cast isn't that much different. This list also doesn't take into account the matchups against more common characters being more important.

Yeah, definitely a scrubby list, especially since its basically just impressions after not even a month of 3.5 from someone who isn't a high level player, but it's a baseline to start from.

What were the more extreme matchups you had (the 65/35 and 70/30)? Also, what was the spread you had for ice climbers compared to others in a-?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If mk is not in your top 10 stop right now

 

[mimgrim]

One person should not make a single MU chat by their-selves in a fighting game with 40+ characters and then make a tier list based on that chart.

I just saying.

 

[Rizner]

One person should not make a single MU chat by their-selves in a fighting game with 40+ characters and then make a tier list based on that chart.

I just saying.

It's a good place to start imo.
Should post the spreads in a spoiler imo, and those can be discussed

 

[mimgrim]

It's a good place to start imo.
Should post the spreads in a spoiler imo, and those can be discussed

It's just that no one, not even ****ing M2K, can know all characters in Project M well enough to know every single one of their MU spreads. So I don't think it's a better place to start compared to others. Now if it was a MU spread that was made by multiple people that played different characters it would be a different story.

 

[_Chrome]

Okay, so instead of doing homework, I made a big matchup chart with my basic perceptions of how matchups go in this game (some of which I really didn't have an idea about, so I just guessed). I typically went for smaller numbers, because I'd rather under-exaggerate strengths and weaknesses and then figure out that I'm wrong about them. For the tier gaps, I took the greatest gaps in the averages and separated them there). Keep in mind this is technically a WIP, and I'll update it when I learn more about certain characters/matchups. After the list, I'll post my thoughts about where I feel I'm wrong, among other stuff. Feel free to criticize. a / between characters means that the average matchup value for them actually ended up tying.

SS Tier (55.488)
/

S Tier (54.390)


A+ Tier (51.220-53.293)
/ /

A Tier (47.439-50.366) -- Couldn't find a good spot to split this one up
/ / / //

A- Tier (45.366-46.707)


B Tier (44.024)


Generally for matchup values, I used 45:55 or 50:50, straying a bit into 40:60 and 35:65, and then I think once or twice into 30:70. Like I said, I'm keeping it moderate, at least at first. I think I was too nice to Ivysaur definitely, it shows that I don't know much about the character. Generally though, the matchup average was around 11 from highest to lowest, 55 being the highest and 44 being the lowest. I think there's a bigger difference, but overall, the viability of the cast isn't that much different. This list also doesn't take into account the matchups against more common characters being more important.

Yeah, definitely a scrubby list, especially since its basically just impressions after not even a month of 3.5 from someone who isn't a high level player, but it's a baseline to start from.

Edit: Added averages for clarity

What was your MU chart? I feel as though the characters with polarizing MUs would have much higher spots on the tier list, and characters with more neutral MUs would be hit pretty hard.

 

[Ultimate Sneeze]

One person should not make a single MU chat by their-selves in a fighting game with 40+ characters and then make a tier list based on that chart.

I just saying.

Generally my opinions are influenced by what I read/watch, so its not really all by myself in the whole sense, just that I compiled my observations. You have a point, a good tier list will probably never be made by one person.

Yeah, I was too harsh on Meta Knight. I think while going through, I probably took into account his range over his other factors. All a part of the process.

And it turns out I only had one 70/30 matchup, that was Sheik/Bowser. When I'm looking at the number definitions, 70/30 is just "disadvantage", so I think there's a lot more matchups that fit into there. Also, some are probably worse.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It's just that no one, not even ****ing M2K, can know all characters in Project M well enough to know every single one of their MU spreads. So I don't think it's a better place to start compared to others. Now if it was a MU spread that was made by multiple people that played different characters it would be a different story.

Gotta be the top/notable players or the list will be as good as sonic boom.

 

[Rizner]

It's just that no one, not even ****ing M2K, can know all characters in Project M well enough to know every single one of their MU spreads. So I don't think it's a better place to start compared to others. Now if it was a MU spread that was made by multiple people that played different characters it would be a different story.

Right, but arbitrarily saying this or that character is better without looking at how it fits with the cast as a whole seems like it might be semi accurate but not as easy to use as a step towards understanding where things truly lie.

So something like this, we could use as a baseline and progress from there to a better understanding overall.


Also, to me when you see 70/30, that's unwinnable unless your opponent plays it wrong. That's where a decent player can win with a pocket character.

But yeah, I would think a character with mostly even matchups should rank higher than one with polarizing matchups in both directions (what good is winning vs half the cast super easy when a pocket fox, sheik, diddy and mk win vs you)

 

[Choice Scarf]

MUs

Yeah you should probably make a table or something easier to read...

 

[Deleted member]

a / between characters means that the average matchup value for them actually ended up tying.
/ /

Toonlink being with peach and jiggs?
Abandon thread

 

[jtm94]

There is always the community Google doc MU sheet. I was working on one some time ago. I myself got annoyed because I kept saying Zelda beat ice climbers and it wasn't changed for months, but they finally updated it. They also had link beating Sheik or Sheik losing to link which is funny.

Sheik has few bad MUs now if any besides Fox and I don't think he has any disadvantaged MUs. Roy seems pretty good now, sonic is pretty good.

Before you say a character is top tier think of their MUs first.

 

[Deleted member]

Roy is ****ing great in 3.5, he's top 8 for sure
Tink is very good and very bad, definitely top 15 but I don't know if he's top tier or still his usual best mid tier status

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Roy is ****ing great in 3.5, he's top 8 for sure
Tink is very good and very bad, definitely top 15 but I don't know if he's top tier or still his usual best mid tier status

no one will ever allow TL to become top tier
if worst character become best
PMDeV illuminati confirmed

 

[steelguttey]

if only i could still add on to lunchables posts still about how olimar is also good

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar got pooped on in this build, I think the only way olimar will ever win is if he runs away and throws pikmin/pivot grabs. He's gonna be really boring now, and still worse than a lot of other characters

 

[B.W.]

Olimar got pooped on in this build, I think the only way olimar will ever win is if he runs away and throws pikmin/pivot grabs. He's gonna be really boring now, and still worse than a lot of other characters

Basically this. And he can't even do that effectively anymore thanks to Pikmin dying easier. He was only good in 3.0 because he punished mistakes hard. He doesn't do that anymore because his damage output is less and his juggle game was severely nerfed.

 

[_Chrome]

What do people think of my tier list?
Top Tier


High Tier


Mid Tier


Low Tier


Bottom Tier

 

[shairn]

Generally my opinions are influenced by what I read/watch, so its not really all by myself in the whole sense, just that I compiled my observations. You have a point, a good tier list will probably never be made by one person.

Yeah, I was too harsh on Meta Knight. I think while going through, I probably took into account his range over his other factors. All a part of the process.

And it turns out I only had one 70/30 matchup, that was Sheik/Bowser. When I'm looking at the number definitions, 70/30 is just "disadvantage", so I think there's a lot more matchups that fit into there. Also, some are probably worse.

Sheik/Bowser is worse than 70/30
Probably 80/20 or upwards

That matchup is DUMB.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Everyone poops on Ganons placing. Though, I can see why. I think he's plenty closer of a mid-tier than people give him credit for. And if not, he's much more viable now.

Time will tell I suppose. Everyone's been streaming and playing Smash 4, so PM has been out of the lime-light sadly. Give it a few months though, we still livin'.

What we can agree on - tiers lists have less disparity amongst the characters on the roster when considering matchups. It's not just a top 8 situation like in melee. I feel too many people see low tiers or mid tiers and announce them unviable with a Melee frame of mind when this games mid-tier or low-tier are different in comparison. Hopefully that makes sense lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

Sheik/Bowser is worse than 70/30
Probably 80/20 or upwards

That matchup is DUMB.

It was easily 80:20 or worse in 3.0. Now, probably closer to 70:30 or 65:35, but it could also be a lack of local top level sheiks.

 

[shairn]

It was easily 80:20 or worse in 3.0. Now, probably closer to 70:30 or 65:35, but it could also be a lack of local top level sheiks.

Sheik is unchanged from 3.02, Bowser is arguably similar in potential (some nerfed moves, faster jumpsquat). I don't really see why it would be 65:35 considering how hard Sheik wins in neutral, then how little Bowser has on Sheik compared to the infinite chaingrabs and easy edgeguards she has on him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Bowser has approach options now. Not many, but 2 or 3 depending on context is a helluva lot better than the former 0.

I think you're underestimating the value of perfect wavelanding. Hopefully I'll be able to demonstrate soon.

 

[shairn]

True, I hadn't thought of the new perfect wavelands. I've actually been practicing them with Bowser too.
He's ****ed on SV or FD though.

 

[trash?]

the stagelist metagame for bowser is balanced out by the fact that the opponent to bowser must always waste their bans on warioware, FoD and yoshi's story, else their matchup suddenly feels mighty delicious to the upb master

 

[Bleck]

Bowser has approach options now.

What are they?

 

[Frost | Odds]

If on FD or somewhere else with no platforms:

1. Perfect waveland in and use a move
2. perfect waveland in and don't use a move

if somewhere with platforms, add

3. PWL across platform, come down with
a) aerial
b) flame cancel
c) koopa klaw (with B-reverse tricks, can put this in a bunch of different places)


hey, I didn't say they were good options.

the stagelist metagame for bowser is balanced out by the fact that the opponent to bowser must always waste their bans on warioware, FoD and yoshi's story, else their matchup suddenly feels mighty delicious to the upb master

Heh, FoD isn't even his 3rd best stage anymore :D

 

[shairn]

the stagelist metagame for bowser is balanced out by the fact that the opponent to bowser must always waste their bans on warioware, FoD and yoshi's story, else their matchup suddenly feels mighty delicious to the upb master

BF is better than FoD IMO, not as small, but the platforms are much better.

 

[Sinz]

If on FD or somewhere else with no platforms:

1. Perfect waveland in and use a move
2. perfect waveland in and don't use a move

if somewhere with platforms, add

3. PWL across platform, come down with
a) aerial
b) flame cancel
c) koopa klaw (with B-reverse tricks, can put this in a bunch of different places)


hey, I didn't say they were good options.

So basically be tricky?

edit: i'm not trying to troll. It just looks like the whole mix up is slide and try to bait your opponent and then punish him.

 

[shairn]

Well you're certainly not going to win off the character's merits