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Tier List Speculation

Rizner

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 18, 2010
Messages
642
Location
FL -> AZ -> OH
Fsmash is still fast and large.
Her kick still KOs at 90, the super sweet spot was entirely problematic.
The new projectile is better. Old dins was incredibly flawed. It was slow, punishable, and did not reward interaction which she needs to do well. At best it was free damage.
You can still UpB cancel it just isn't a wavedash. And you can platform cancel and grab edge from half the stage away.
Recovery nerfs mean that her kick doesn't KO, they just can't recover from that far.
As for throws they slightly hit up throw, but it still goes into a lot and fthrow bthrow is a mix-up now. And her grab is one frame faster.
I played her for 7 months and I honestly think she is better this way. Oh and new din's is pretty good at the edge.
I feel like you addressed why her changes were good for the game, not how they made her any better which was what they were getting at. As a character, how do those traits help her against her bad matchups?

How is the projectile better? Has does it now reward interaction, and why is that better for her in terms of a matchup? (also the old one could be used to create interactions against the non-fox/sonic/falco). How is an up-B cancel where you can't chose the waveland direction better? You could do it off of a platform to do similar things before, as well as snap to ledges from halfway across the stage. Her kicks, while it could be argued were problematic, were at the same time better. You say now they kill at the same percents due to worse recoveries - sounds like a neutral thing overall. The grabs - are you saying the 1 frame faster advantage gives more of a benefit than the uthrow/bthrow changes?

Just trying to understand why you think she's actually better in terms of matchups or in a tier list than she was before, because I feel like your previous post didn't answer what was asked originally.
 

shairn

Your favorite anime is bad.
Joined
Nov 16, 2013
Messages
2,596
Location
Laval, QC
3DS FC
4742-6323-2961
>Sheik goes roughly even with Puff in Melee

Haha what no
That's the only sentence I read in that post and I'm having none of it.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
For starters, Dankey kang is fat and my avatar is riding on an altaria.
 

Soft Serve

softie
Premium
Joined
Dec 7, 2011
Messages
4,164
Location
AZ
I thought zelda was bad in 3.02, and she got pretty much straight nerfs. New fire is cool, but it doesn't really accomish anything.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
2423-5382-7542
I thought zelda was bad in 3.02, and she got pretty much straight nerfs. New fire is cool, but it doesn't really accomish anything.
It accomplish mind ****ing and induces rage because screen is broke now wtf narf her
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Just a personal belief of mine that he is really good. Honestly, I believe he's the answer to 20XX, even in Melee, and the fact that he's been buffed in Project M makes a huge difference. His combos and kill potential are insane, unfortunately, I'm just not technical enough with him yet to the point where I can parry with him.
i feel the exact opposite of this
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Yoshi is not even close to being the answer to 20XX. Last time I checked, having a significantly worse neutral game than spacies isn't the way to beat them
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
790
Why does every single one of these tier lists rank Luc so low? I'm naturally curious as a Luc player.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Why does every single one of these tier lists rank Luc so low? I'm naturally curious as a Luc player.
because mediocre players constantly underrate the punishment game because they don't have one (and conversely overrate the neutral game because they can actually do that somewhat).

lucario is fantastic this version, practice hard and a lot and make fat stacks of cash on early innovation like the best players always do.
 

Zoa

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 18, 2009
Messages
790
because mediocre players constantly underrate the punishment game because they don't have one (and conversely overrate the neutral game because they can actually do that somewhat).

lucario is fantastic this version, practice hard and a lot and make fat stacks of cash on early innovation like the best players always do.
I find it hard to argue against your logic.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Most of the time its because umbreon is right

umbreon is one of the few people on here who I'll ever agree with lmao
 

Avro-Arrow

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Sep 24, 2014
Messages
478
Location
Ottawa
Hasn't Yoshi been buffed pretty hard this version? His defensive game is way better now, and his comboes on spacies are unreal. Even his eggs have been improved in P:M (not this update, but still). Shouldn't this make him rank pretty well on the tier list?
 

V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
Am I the only person who doesn't think MK is good in 3.5 with his grab and sword range nerfed?
 

V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
Alot of his moves don't hit where the graphics show it would, like fair or ftilt for example.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Did the changelog state that the hitboxes on metaknights sword were moved inwards/shrunk in size?
I don't want to go through the 90+ lines but uhh... PRETTY DAMN SURE it didn't say that
 

mimgrim

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 20, 2013
Messages
9,233
Location
Somewhere magical
Did the changelog state that the hitboxes on metaknights sword were moved inwards/shrunk in size?
I don't want to go through the 90+ lines but uhh... PRETTY DAMN SURE it didn't say that
Fsmash is the only one that received a change in range I believe.

EDIT - And the new Dair obviously has different range.
 
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_Chrome

Smash Ace
Joined
Sep 23, 2014
Messages
549
Location
Ottawa, Ontario
Why does every single one of these tier lists rank Luc so low? I'm naturally curious as a Luc player.
About my placement, I really just wanted to speculate with other people in an organized fashion to develop my tier list, so I probably should have mentioned that in my tier list post. I have a friend who plays a decent Luc; for sure the punishment game is strong and the neutral is lacking, and he probably could have been placed in a higher spot much like many other characters for his damage output. Besides a select few, I feel that just about every character is balanced, so I also probably shouldn't have used titles like "Low Tier."

Really, the only characters I feel for sure are inferior are Bowser, Luigi and Jigglypuff. I'm not sure if the Ice Climbers are bad as everyone says they are, because I haven't seen anyone use them (probably a good indicator).
 
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V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
I was just in training mode yesterday testing the range on his moves and his ftilt and fair visually passed through the cpu and didn't touch them.
 

jtm94

Smash Lord
Joined
Oct 16, 2013
Messages
1,384
Location
Pittsburgh, PA
I feel like you addressed why her changes were good for the game, not how they made her any better which was what they were getting at. As a character, how do those traits help her against her bad matchups?

How is the projectile better? Has does it now reward interaction, and why is that better for her in terms of a matchup? (also the old one could be used to create interactions against the non-fox/sonic/falco). How is an up-B cancel where you can't chose the waveland direction better? You could do it off of a platform to do similar things before, as well as snap to ledges from halfway across the stage. Her kicks, while it could be argued were problematic, were at the same time better. You say now they kill at the same percents due to worse recoveries - sounds like a neutral thing overall. The grabs - are you saying the 1 frame faster advantage gives more of a benefit than the uthrow/bthrow changes?

Just trying to understand why you think she's actually better in terms of matchups or in a tier list than she was before, because I feel like your previous post didn't answer what was asked originally.
I was feeling really scatterbrained on mobile. My phone crashes a lot on Smashboards, but no johns.

So the projectile is better because it is far more usable from a mid range unlike the old dins which was only viable long range or you got punished, even by slower characters. Now you can use it to extend combos, tech chase, and alter your opponent's movement without having to have it placed in advance. It also holds position for longer controlling space more effectively without renewed commitment every second allowing you to actually play smash instead of having a full-time job placing dins.
I never said the UpB cancel was better, but it is still there. I was reiterating that it is still good and she didn't lose too too much there.
Kick is also easier to land because it isn't like threading a needle anymore, it's just the regular kick hitbox that has been buffed that used to KO at like 110% and now KOs at 90%.
1 frame faster grab is pretty good. Especially when her grab distance is as decent as hers. Upthrow got worse by a frame and fthrow actually got made better. *shrugs*

All of her difficult MUs from before Mewtwo, Diddy, Pit, Link, Mario, Sonic have been changed to make them much more tolerable and borderline even in some instances. What other bad MUs make her unviable in this game??
 

4tlas

Smash Lord
Joined
Sep 30, 2014
Messages
1,298
I was feeling really scatterbrained on mobile. My phone crashes a lot on Smashboards, but no johns.

So the projectile is better because it is far more usable from a mid range unlike the old dins which was only viable long range or you got punished, even by slower characters. Now you can use it to extend combos, tech chase, and alter your opponent's movement without having to have it placed in advance. It also holds position for longer controlling space more effectively without renewed commitment every second allowing you to actually play smash instead of having a full-time job placing dins.
I never said the UpB cancel was better, but it is still there. I was reiterating that it is still good and she didn't lose too too much there.
Kick is also easier to land because it isn't like threading a needle anymore, it's just the regular kick hitbox that has been buffed that used to KO at like 110% and now KOs at 90%.
1 frame faster grab is pretty good. Especially when her grab distance is as decent as hers. Upthrow got worse by a frame and fthrow actually got made better. *shrugs*

All of her difficult MUs from before Mewtwo, Diddy, Pit, Link, Mario, Sonic have been changed to make them much more tolerable and borderline even in some instances. What other bad MUs make her unviable in this game??
The old Dins was also very usable when retreating to cover the space you just left, working like a bait tool. The new Dins clanks on shield which makes it very difficult to use as pressure to make opponents come to you, which is my only true gripe. On the other hand, being able to cover the midspot is great! Well, its great until your opponent learns to just shield it, at which point it turns back toward use-impaired. It also seems to have much less hitstun when it actually hits, so I'm not sure how good it does for actually controlling space.

Kick hitbox is not strictly buffed. The sweetspot is extended toward her but is otherwise the same. The only time I hit with the inside and thus would have whiffed the old kick is when I'm comboing, which is when I would actually be landing the supersweetspot. I think this is just a nerf to the combo game but a buff to landing kicks out of neutral. Without 3 dins traps I think she needs the buff to landing kicks in neutral, but I don't think she needed the nerf to the combo game (but maybe it made her oppressive in easy MUs)

The difficult MUs are all the ones where the opponent is either FAR more mobile or can outcamp Zelda, since her approach is so awful. 1 Din is a huge nerf against the super-mobile characters, and the new telecancel losing mixup potential is a huge nerf to her approach game (well, maybe not THAT huge, but it wasn't safe in the first place). How were these MUs improved? (I don't know the nerfs to the other characters as well, so it is possible youre right I would just appreciate elaboration)
 

V

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 17, 2008
Messages
963
I'm saying that considering most sword characters have hitboxes that match the graphics of the move that MK's range is shorter now using brawl as a reference. I think his range is short enough that it can't be considered a strength right now (not necessarily a weakness either) and I'm not sure why people think he's so good in 3.5.
 

hamyojo

Smash Ace
Joined
Mar 13, 2012
Messages
551
Location
DFW
So I was asked to make a tier list by a few people... So here goes.

Tier 1 - Definitely will be worth your time.

S Tier

Fox
R.O.B.
Captain Falcon
Toon Link
Falco
Roy

A Tier

Lucario
Yoshi
Ike
Wolf
Zero Suit Samus
Shiek
Mewtwo
Diddy Kong

Tier 2 - You'll probably need a secondary

B + Tier

Game & Watch
Samus
Link
Marth
Ness
Ivysaur
Luigi
Wario

B- Tier

Kirby
Charizard
Meta Knight
Zelda
Bowser
Mario
Pit
Sonic

Tier 3 - Fun in friendlies

C+ Tier

Donkey Kong
Olimar
King Dedede
Squirtle
Pit
Lucas

I Lost Because I Played X Character Tier AKA
X Tier

Pikachu
Ganondorf
Peach
Jigglypuff
Ice Climbers


Major characters I had trouble deciding spots were Pit, Lucas, Olimar, Sonic, and Samus. I feel like all those have potential that I don't know about, but ranking characters based on potential sounds like a bad practice. I think everyone's pretty viable except X Tier, which are the few characters who are hilariously close to each other on the Melee tier list that are hard to balance in a game like this. I feel like the X Tier characters will always stay as some of the worst in PM, which is fine.
 
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Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Captain Falcon? Yeah, ok.

Anyway Odds,

You are aware the reason why Sheik beats Peach in NTSC, right? Also, you are aware that she probably does not beat Peach in PAL and that the reasons she didn't beat Peach in PAL are only exacerbated in PM by the fact that Peach has more neutral options to keep her positional advantage and stretch a punish.

I believe that Sheik definitely lost to Kirby in 3.02 and I think she still loses to him now. There isn't any real Kirby of note at the moment, but she basically loses to him for the same reasons. He's floaty and harder to combo, his crouch is extremely difficult to interact with and she can't land very well against him at all. Also god help her if he's able to get his hands on her needles.
 
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