Tier List Speculation

[Pwnz0rz Man]

One of our local top players mains Snake and feels 3.5 Snake is trash. I think it has something to do with the startup of upB or something.

I think it's pretty obvious that all of Snake's weaknesses can be traced back to Foxdie.

Gotta be the top/notable players or the list will be as good as sonic boom.

That burn. So good.

S Tier
Toon Link

B + Tier
Link

B- Tier
Meta Knight
Mario
Pit
Sonic

You're just messing with us, right?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Anyway Odds,

You are aware the reason why Sheik beats Peach in NTSC, right?

Uuuuuh, boost grab, needles, easy kills off the top?

Also, you are aware that she probably does not beat Peach in PAL and that the reasons she didn't beat Peach in PAL are only exacerbated in PM by the fact that Peach has more neutral options to keep her positional advantage and stretch a punish.

Actually, I had no idea that the MU was considered even in PAL. Weird. What made the difference?

I believe that Sheik definitely lost to Kirby in 3.02 and I think she still loses to him now. There isn't any real Kirby of note at the moment, but she basically loses to him for the same reasons. He's floaty and harder to combo, his crouch is extremely difficult to interact with and she can't land very well against him at all. Also god help her if he's able to get his hands on her needles.

I think that a comparison with Jiggs would be more appropriate, though for now I'll assume you're correct in that new Peach beats Sheik. I don't see what makes him so difficult to interact with while crouching, either. Most of Sheik's important options (needles, fair, dsmash, nair) still hit Kirby just fine. Sure, he can duck grabs, but so what? He can't do much to punish the Sheik for whiffing a grab, unless you're going to argue that Kirby's mediocre combo game is somehow better than Sheik's. If she's constantly going for grabs or even dash attacks (ie. approaching), then she's playing the MU completely wrong in any case.

 

[Juushichi]

Kirby has the ability to duck nair and make it really awkward to hit fair (not sure her SH fair AC actually hits crouching Kirby). Most of Needle Storm also misses crouching Kirby unless she jumps and she has poor air speed which helps him with his juggles. There is enough counterplay between most of Sheik's important options while crouching with Kirby. She doesn't get boom rested like she does with Jiggs, but the interaction is rather similar in terms of juggle punishes...

No character in the game really wants to be up-tilted by Kirby and for things that Kirby lacks, corner carry is not really one of them. Good Sheiks can mitigate it, but the rinse and repeat nature of edgeguarding Sheik is made pretty easy by Kirby bair/hammer/back throw and more. D-Smash buff also makes whiffing a grab/poor sweetspot not very fun at all.

I don't think that many people here that played Brawl and of the people who did, I am equally sure that they did not play Sheik vs Kirby in that game--- there are quite a few parallels to be made in the MUs between games, though the system mechanics greatly differ. I got to experience this myself rather often, as well as watching the best Brawl Sheik in the US arguably (Judo, from Kentucky) play this a lot.

 

[Rizner]

I was feeling really scatterbrained on mobile. My phone crashes a lot on Smashboards, but no johns.

So the projectile is better because it is far more usable from a mid range unlike the old dins which was only viable long range or you got punished, even by slower characters. Now you can use it to extend combos, tech chase, and alter your opponent's movement without having to have it placed in advance. It also holds position for longer controlling space more effectively without renewed commitment every second allowing you to actually play smash instead of having a full-time job placing dins.
I never said the UpB cancel was better, but it is still there. I was reiterating that it is still good and she didn't lose too too much there.
Kick is also easier to land because it isn't like threading a needle anymore, it's just the regular kick hitbox that has been buffed that used to KO at like 110% and now KOs at 90%.
1 frame faster grab is pretty good. Especially when her grab distance is as decent as hers. Upthrow got worse by a frame and fthrow actually got made better. *shrugs*

All of her difficult MUs from before Mewtwo, Diddy, Pit, Link, Mario, Sonic have been changed to make them much more tolerable and borderline even in some instances. What other bad MUs make her unviable in this game??

Lol, no worries. I would say fox alone wins real hard which makes tournaments difficult. Any character that controls the mid range and close range and can quickly get above fireball placements. Then people with long projectiles like falco.
The new dins is no longer effective to edge guard, and you can't use it in conjunction with your body placement for safer approaches, because now you can't keep momentum on jump fireball as well to traverse the stage, and it's super easy for opponents to deal with when you aren't right there. That's why characters who can get up and over the midrange threat win imo.
I would say Ness and meta knight matchups got a good bit harder, ice climbers probably aren't as free. Wolf is probably hard, but I haven't fight any good ones. Sheik didn't get any easier. Peach can likely do work. Stuff like that.

The up b cancel I think is worse now/has less utility because you're forced to ledge cancel or have super lag, and can't go in and out to bait anymore, but I could see that argument as a negligible change based on the rest of character changes in 3.5, but I think it hurts at the mid and upper levels of gameplay.

 

[Rizner]

Kirby has the ability to duck nair and make it really awkward to hit fair (not sure her SH fair AC actually hits crouching Kirby). Most of Needle Storm also misses crouching Kirby unless she jumps and she has poor air speed which helps him with his juggles. There is enough counterplay between most of Sheik's important options while crouching with Kirby. She doesn't get boom rested like she does with Jiggs, but the interaction is rather similar in terms of juggle punishes...

No character in the game really wants to be up-tilted by Kirby and for things that Kirby lacks, corner carry is not really one of them. Good Sheiks can mitigate it, but the rinse and repeat nature of edgeguarding Sheik is made pretty easy by Kirby bair/hammer/back throw and more. D-Smash buff also makes whiffing a grab/poor sweetspot not very fun at all.

I don't think that many people here that played Brawl and of the people who did, I am equally sure that they did not play Sheik vs Kirby in that game--- there are quite a few parallels to be made in the MUs between games, though the system mechanics greatly differ. I got to experience this myself rather often, as well as watching the best Sheik in the US arguably (Judo, from Kentucky) play this a lot.

Lol I've played that matchup a ton. Is good fun. I would agree with lots of this. Haven't played the matchup enough in pm, though. I'm going to have to try that vs drephen next time.
Does sheik no longer have dthrow chases against Kirby?

 

[Deleted member]

lmao sheik might not lose any MUs, especially not peach or kirby. start looking at real characters like fox.

 

[Boiko]

I would say Ness and meta knight matchups got a good bit harder, ice climbers probably aren't as free. Wolf is probably hard, but I haven't fight any good ones.

I frequently play with a pretty solid Zelda player from my region. We had decently close sets, but I've always won in the end. Zelda and Ness just kind of traded hits in the neutral because they couldn't combo each other that well. What made it difficult was when you happened to trade with a kick and died at like, 60%. Since that is no longer an issue, I've won the sets much more handily, and generally have an easier time with Zelda overall. So I would definitely say you're right about Ness.

I also secondary Wolf, and although I've never used him in tourney against this Zelda player, I've run through him in friendlies pretty badly. Zelda can combo Wolf pretty hard, but Wolf just kind of murders her...

 

[Frost | Odds]

lmao sheik might not lose any MUs, especially not peach or kirby. start looking at real characters like fox.

She probably loses to all the spacies, heh. Unless something that I'm not aware of skewed the Fox/Falco matchups dramatically in her favor in the transition from melee to PM?

I can't think of anyone else in the current patch that she'd have too much trouble with. How are the Roy, GnW, M2 matchups?

Only reason I ask about GnW is his duck -> dtilt punishes on Sheik might be pretty raunchy.

 

[Deleted member]

sheik can boostgrab low crouches, but those chars tend to have low mobility so you'd be boostgrabbing them anyway

falco losing the strong hit on dair in the extended frames helps the shield game vs him immsensely, i havent had any issues with falco yet.

roy fox and wolf are annoying because theyre good characters but i dont think she loses to roy anyway

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wait, I don't think boost grab should go lower than dash grab -- how the hell does that work?

Unless the dash grab just hits low crouches in any case and sheik just shouldn't JC vs those characters

 

[Boiko]

Wait, I don't think boost grab should go lower than dash grab -- how the hell does that work?

Unless the dash grab just hits low crouches in any case and sheik just shouldn't JC vs those characters

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought a boost grab was just an accelerated/extra distance dash grab.

 

[V]

Well, maybe your not a smash ace then.

Can you name another reliable way for him to grab without committing to a boost grab? SHFFL nair into grab? I know his edge guarding is beast but he seems slightly worse at Marth's play style than Marth but people place him highter.

 

[Boiko]

Can you name another reliable way for him to grab without committing to a boost grab? SHFFL nair into grab? I know his edge guarding is beast but he seems slightly worse at Marth's play style than Marth but people place him highter.

Probably because he's 6000% faster and can still kill if a character is above combo %.

 

[V]

Maybe I'm just biased against him in 3.5 since I miss 3.02's dthrow and dair.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but I thought a boost grab was just an accelerated/extra distance dash grab.

Technically, it's just a dash attack canceled into a (dash) grab - this doesn't necessarily translate into extra grab distance, though it does so for some characters, such as Sheik. I've been told the grab boxes in some boost grabs travel a frame or two ahead of the animation (only in terms of horizontal distance), but haven't verified that claim - which may as far as I know be true in Melee, PM, both, or neither.

 

[mimgrim]

Actually, I had no idea that the MU was considered even in PAL. Weird. What made the difference?

The only difference is Sheik having a CG on Peach (NTSC) and not having a CG on Peach (PAL). Whether that makes the difference to an even MU or not is up for interpretation.

lmao sheik might not lose any MUs, especially not peach or kirby. start looking at real characters like fox.

Is Sonic a real character by your standards? :L

 

[Juushichi]

I generally find myself agreeing with you @Umbreon, but in speaking extensively with HankyPanky and having a brief conversation with Armada, I am almost absolutely sure that she loses to Peach. HP easily beats our Sheiks here in PM (Fizzle--- who was #1 in Central Ohio last PR period and Drephen who was #2 last PR period and myself) where this is not the case in Melee.

I would love to be shown wrong because I really enjoy playing Sheik and his Peach is something I've picked up and entirely different character to play against.

Sheik vs Sonic is 5-5 or 55-45, Sheik favor @ poster above me.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Maybe I'm just biased against him in 3.5 since I miss 3.02's dthrow and dair.

Uh yea. Most mk mains were beyond spoiled by those and the recovery. Dair was broken. Dthrow was too free. You can still get similar results with the move after 30%.

Can you name another reliable way for him to grab without committing to a boost grab? SHFFL nair into grab? I know his edge guarding is beast but he seems slightly worse at Marth's play style than Marth but people place him highter.

Its not even like his boost grab is bad. If anything, he needs it a bit more after that grab nerf. You nair into grab, yes, you can fair, ftilt, dtilt and dair into it as well... idk why you're playing Marth's play style with mk. Play mk baka.

 

[Ace55]

You are aware the reason why Sheik beats Peach in NTSC, right? Also, you are aware that she probably does not beat Peach in PAL and that the reasons she didn't beat Peach in PAL are only exacerbated in PM by the fact that Peach has more neutral options to keep her positional advantage and stretch a punish.

Is Sheik's throw mixup really that bad against Peach? The problem in PAL is that Sheik struggles to kill and Peach can abuse her shield without much risk.

 

[Juushichi]

Still the same, Ace. Throw mixup is not enough.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Is Sonic a real character by your standards? :L

@Umbreon he meant to quote you.

@Juushichi I think it's a shame that Peach's new PM stuff isn't really being properly capitalized upon by anyone that I know of. Her FC RAR bair is really slick, the new utilt is amazing, and side B is a great punish/tech chase option. Just watched some Hanky Panky and he doesn't seem to do any of it either

I think you're underselling the difference the throw mixup can make, as well. 50% isn't great, but it's better than nothing-- and Sheik doesn't have huge problems with getting a grab on Peach. Even with that, though, you're probably right that the MU is about even.

Peach has more important struggles, like against Toon Link and Fox :x

 

[Deleted member]

Still the same, Ace. Throw mixup is not enough.

i never do the mixup, i always just throw the opponent wherever will put them in the worst position. just because something doesn't hard combo doesn't mean it's bad at killing people. i have no problem rolling ac fairs on an opponent until they die. that said, sheik almost always has a punish on grab at relevant percent rages, you're probably just dropping them.

sheik does not care if you know which way shes going to throw you. the "mixup" thing is a joke and you dont need to play to 50/50s

Wait, I don't think boost grab should go lower than dash grab -- how the hell does that work?

Unless the dash grab just hits low crouches in any case and sheik just shouldn't JC vs those characters

bingo

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Juushichi
@Umbreon

Just did some testing in debug mode. It seems that

-Sheik can always grab GnW regardless of crouch status and whether sheik is standing or dash grabbing
-Can't standing grab a crouching Puff, and Dash Grab misses most of the time
-Can't standing grab a crouching Kirby, but dash grab hits most of the time

The variation in Kirby/Puff's grabbability seems to be based on their crouching animations where they bob up and down a bit.

Seems like she's best off dashgrabbing Kirby and not trying to grab Puff at all unless she's very confident that she has it.

sheik does not care if you know which way shes going to throw you. the "mixup" thing is a joke and you dont need to play to 50/50s

I still agree with the spirit of this, though I'd argue that it's worth it to go for the 'mixup' like 5% of the time or so - but only once your opponent respects/realizes that you never go for the mixup. Rare enough that it's effectively impossible for the opponent to accurately predict a mixup, but often enough to confuse em.

I'm of the same mentality re: Bowser's fsmash. It's a terrible move and should theoretically never ever be used, but throwing it out there exactly once a set can rattle an opponent.

 

[mimgrim]

@Umbreon he meant to quote you.

I had meant to quote both of you, actually. Somehow my post didn't go through right but when I go in to edit it it looks right. Weird.

Actually, I had no idea that the MU was considered even in PAL. Weird. What made the difference?

The only difference is Sheik having a CG on Peach (NTSC) and not having a CG on Peach (PAL). Whether that makes the difference to an even MU or not is up for interpretation.

lmao sheik might not lose any MUs, especially not peach or kirby. start looking at real characters like fox.

Is Sonic a real character by your standards? :L

^that should be what the post looks like, and what it looks like in the edit section, but for some reason shows differently.

EDIT - Still not coming out right but still looks right in the editable section. Wtf.

EDIT EDIT - And fixed. Original post should be fixed now as well.

 

[Scuba Steve]

What other bad MUs make her unviable in this game??

Falcon kicks the **** out of Zelda. Zelda just doesn't really have anything to deal with Falcon's dash dance and Falcon gets pretty free throw followups that kill early. Tons of characters that are just significantly more mobile than Zelda absolutely crush her. Squirtle is another bad matchup that comes to mind.

1 Din is a huge nerf against the super-mobile characters, and the new telecancel losing mixup potential is a huge nerf to her approach game (well, maybe not THAT huge, but it wasn't safe in the first place). How were these MUs improved? (I don't know the nerfs to the other characters as well, so it is possible youre right I would just appreciate elaboration)

I think Din's coming out faster now is a buff overall against the super mobile characters. Old Din's was awful against fast characters just because it was so slow and punishable. As Falcon, you could dash dance camp until they threw out a Din's and knee them from halfway across the stage on reaction alone. I think old Din's is heavily overrated

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Talk about wolf. I wanna hear about walf

 

[MagnesD3]

So is shiek like the fei long of this game (loses to basically nobody.)

 

[Boiko]

So is shiek like the fei long of this game (loses to basically nobody.)

Sheik has one of the best MU spreads in the game but I still think she loses to Fox and Wolf.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I had meant to quote both of you, actually. Somehow my post didn't go through right but when I go in to edit it it looks right. Weird.

I don't know much about sonic - past or present iterations. I've played around with him a little bit in 3.5, and my impression is that he's really strong, but I'm not informed enough to form any real opinion.

 

[Anonistry]

So is shiek like the fei long of this game (loses to basically nobody.)

Depends, does she have an insanely good poke game that is absolutely safe to everything that eventually will force the enemy to make mistakes? #DatAELongDoe

 

[MagnesD3]

Sheik has one of the best MU spreads in the game but I still think she loses to Fox and Wolf.

Almost everyone loses to fox so does he even count lol. What is Sheiks main weakness then besides recovery, it seems she might be a little too good if she is basically all even or positive. She may be a problematic (like fox) if so.

 

[mimgrim]

I don't know much about sonic - past or present iterations. I've played around with him a little bit in 3.5, and my impression is that he's really strong, but I'm not informed enough to form any real opinion.

No no no. I hadn't meant to quote you about Sonic. That was for Umbreon. I had however meant to quote you about the difference between NTSC Sheik VS Peach and PAL Sheik VS Peach. :L

 

[Boiko]

Almost everyone loses to fox so does he even count lol. What is Sheiks main weakness then besides recovery, it seems she might be a little too good if she is basically all even or positive.

She gets comboed decently hard. For example, Ness has a hard time with Sheik, but if he can get in on her, he can combo string uairs into a multitude of follow ups to put her off stage and just kill her.

I really don't think the character has that many weaknesses... Strong combo game, good set ups into kill moves, amazing grab/throw game, needles, potent edge guarding.

She has a less than amazing neutral game IMO. Still very good, but not quite spacie level. Plus a punishable recovery.

Character is good, idk what to say, lolol.

 

[Anonistry]

Sonic's true tier placement is entirely based on his taunts; as I am unaware of him losing any of his taunts, he will continue to reign as Z-tier, both best and worst, for inevitable ability to force opponent SD.

 

[MagnesD3]

She gets comboed decently hard. For example, Ness has a hard time with Sheik, but if he can get in on her, he can combo string uairs into a multitude of follow ups to put her off stage and just kill her.

I really don't think the character has that many weaknesses... Strong combo game, good set ups into kill moves, amazing grab/throw game, needles, potent edge guarding.

She has a less than amazing neutral game IMO. Still very good, but not quite spacie level. Plus a punishable recovery.

Character is good, idk what to say, lolol.

I feel its a poor fighting game design like fox imo if the characters dont have a clear weakness unless they are just ok in every area and not particularly amazing in any (but shiek/fox is totally amazing in many areas). I hope the pmbr analyze those two and either give clear weaknesses besides being combo food or weaken their strengths overall (fox's lacking feature should definitely be kill power imo, im not as sure what should be done to sheik.)

 

[Boiko]

I feel its a poor design like fox imo if the characters dont have a clear weakness unless they are just ok in every area and not particularly amazing in any (but shiek/fox is totally amazing in many areas). I hope the pmbr analyze those two and either give clear weaknesses besides being combo food or weaken their strengths overall (fox's lacking feature should definitely be kill power imo, im not as sure what should be done to sheik.)

You also need to consider that Fox/Sheik play very similarly to their melee counterparts, and thus have 13 years of developed meta (strengths and weaknesses). 3.5 brings a lot of character changes, making it necessary to learn new niches about the characters. For now, Fox and Sheik will probably dominate the meta. But who knows what will really change in the future? Safe to say we have a generally good idea as to where things are going? Sure. Just some food for thought.

 

[MagnesD3]

You also need to consider that Fox/Sheik play very similarly to their melee counterparts, and thus have 13 years of developed meta (strengths and weaknesses). 3.5 brings a lot of character changes, making it necessary to learn new niches about the characters. For now, Fox and Sheik will probably dominate the meta. But who knows what will really change in the future? Safe to say we have a generally good idea as to where things are going? Sure. Just some food for thought.

The way I see it if these characters lose to someone, more than likely it will be do to those said characters being poorly designed as well (or very rare examples) and being too good tier aka 3.0 mewtwo. I think the PMBR needs to lower the ceiling a little bit on how good characters can be, aka I think its a mistake to hold all the melee top tiers as the standard of balance (from most of the 3.5 changes I believe they are starting to realize this. Even if they didnt take down fox down a peg yet.)

 

[Frost | Odds]

No no no. I hadn't meant to quote you about Sonic. That was for Umbreon. I had however meant to quote you about the difference between NTSC Sheik VS Peach and PAL Sheik VS Peach. :L

Ah, sorry. I'm still inclined to think that Sheik wins like 55:45, but there again I'm not terribly qualified.

 

[GabPR]

Considering what Boiko said... Im starting to think its not only about a character being "good" or easy... its about how "quickly" one develops the meta of a character and if there is something more to develop. I mean... people may be just asking "Give me a character in which I can good at quickly". If you want further proof of this, Im going to put as an example a thread in Sonic boards when 2.5 came out COMPLAINING that Sonic was too nerfed, was too changed, and was around mid tier at best (lol, we all know how THAT turned out with just 6 months of development, and it was not even close to finishing). Is it really that bad for a character to take a bit more time to develop? Sure... at first people will lose to melee characters because their development is ahead... but in the future that can change.

Conclusion: Stop jumping to Conclusions.

 

[Deleted member]

yes i think sonic is a real character, sonic is always horribly underrated and i have no idea why. i hate that *****

the difference between PM and melee PAL sheik is that PM dthrow is much faster and gives you a huge margin to react and do a followup. PAL sheik has the negative of the DI window against her with no time advantage to make up for it. PM dthrow is also generally harder to react to even by good players with good reaction, even if they know it's coming. you also get this nasty DI mixup when you try to intercept landing lag with dsmash that is completely coincidental that you don't even have to play to because you already know what you're going to do and they don't so you never have to try to "trick" them. in general any DI trap that foregoes the guesswork of a "mixup" is a good deal, but as a sheik player i know that i almost always want to grab them instead unless it's right near a ledge and a respect FF > block strategy will push them off to the edge favorably.

and i could totally see sheik losing to fox and wolf, but i won't agree to it until i'm absolutely sure of it. so far the dthrow > jab reset works like it did in melee but the offset of dthrow speed means its much easier to react to buffer roll out of the reset if you don't get them with it. this makes the punishment game quite a bit better than it was (since in melee it was horrible) but it's still very far from being a good reliable punish. ofc after like 40% you can do whatever you want to them on a non-grab conversion and kill them quite easily.

and yes fox is STILL a problem. real talk @ someone in the development team, is fox ever going to be actually fixed or should i just stop holding out on that?

edit: and no it's not that "developed meta" ****, sheik doesn't play anything like she did in melee past mid-level, and i don't see all that developed meta carrying marth jigglypuff peach, or even older characters that weren't so good that are clearly good now like samus. it really is just fox, only fox, and it's always fox that's the problem.