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Tier List Speculation

menotyou135

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
313
Location
Tampa FL
As someone who can't even Multishine, I disagree with this. How hard a tech is should have no bearing on it being stupid design or not. Because at top level play it is assumed you have all of this **** mastered. When Multishining is mastered it's hella dumb.
Under that logic, waveshine should be automatic if you press a direction, short hoppping should be automatic if you don't hold down the button, l canceling should be removed and you should automatically be able to do it, chain grabs should work by just holding the grab button, DI should always be perfect angle to survive if you even slightly tilting the directional stick, shield dropping should work by just pressing down, shields should automatically shift to the best position to block an attack, dash grabs should work like jump cancel grabs so you don't have to press jump anymore, using marth's fair over the edge should automatically trigger a jumping dair for the ken combo, falco should automatically waveland lasers, perfect shield should have a 60 frame window rather than 2, should should automatically smash DI just by DIing regular, trajectories during combos should auto DI to the best escape angle, ledge techs should trigger automatically when available, Sweetspotting the edge should work like brawl, ect... I could seriously go on for hours with this.

The difficulty of the move does not become irrelevant when you reach a high level. Being able to do it consistently while taking account for 500 other factors and doing many other hard techs at the same time means that hard techs to perform are still relevant regardless of how good you are. I don't care what you say. Every pro misses L-cancels, perfect wavelands, multishines, escape/survival DI, chaingrabs ect...

Saying that hard techs have "no bearing" because top level play you should "have all of this **** mastered," is probably the most ignorant statement I have seen in my short time on these boards.
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
4,290
NNID
hinichii
3DS FC
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He does and talks about lots of stuff, that's why I downloaded everything and put them into 3 Youtube playlists
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7wGkq-0RxS3NR6tMouIolPK
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x44zkyz2mjoKc1Ok9_Eqt6
Since then (I did this when I was scared Twitch was gonna delete stuff) he's got a couple or so more analysis he's done on his Twitch

Some of these he actually is missing I think, for whatever reason. So lucky I saved them.
Sen me stuffs on skype plz?
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,133
Is that because you pathologically oversimplify and misrepresent every dissenting point of view you come across?
nah, it's because nobody who accuses anybody of making a strawman argument actually has any idea what a strawman argument is (else they wouldn't be making the accusation), and is indicative of a person who's more interested in appearing to be the most intelligent person present than actually discussing whatever it is that's being discussed
 
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Phan7om

ドリームランドの悪夢
Joined
Jun 12, 2013
Messages
1,615
Location
???
Under that logic, waveshine should be automatic if you press a direction, short hoppping should be automatic if you don't hold down the button, l canceling should be removed and you should automatically be able to do it, chain grabs should work by just holding the grab button, DI should always be perfect angle to survive if you even slightly tilting the directional stick, shield dropping should work by just pressing down, shields should automatically shift to the best position to block an attack, dash grabs should work like jump cancel grabs so you don't have to press jump anymore, using marth's fair over the edge should automatically trigger a jumping dair for the ken combo, falco should automatically waveland lasers, perfect shield should have a 60 frame window rather than 2, should should automatically smash DI just by DIing regular, trajectories during combos should auto DI to the best escape angle, ledge techs should trigger automatically when available, Sweetspotting the edge should work like brawl, ect... I could seriously go on for hours with this.

The difficulty of the move does not become irrelevant when you reach a high level. Being able to do it consistently while taking account for 500 other factors and doing many other hard techs at the same time means that hard techs to perform are still relevant regardless of how good you are. I don't care what you say. Every pro misses L-cancels, perfect wavelands, multishines, escape/survival DI, chaingrabs ect...

Saying that hard techs have "no bearing" because top level play you should "have all of this **** mastered," is probably the most ignorant statement I have seen in my short time on these boards.
Idk if you got his point. To him, you're saying Multishining is only "kinda dumb" because its a lot harder to do; hes saying if someone could multishine consistently (regardless of top level play or not) its "hella dumb"... aka just as dumb or worse than Tele-nair. In a TAS world how hard a tech is doesnt matter, most of the stuff you listed should be attepted to be done perfectly every time.. a move shouldnt become "dumber" just because someone mastered it, it was already "dumb" in theory.
 
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Kidneyjoe

Smash Cadet
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
62
Location
Tennessee
Or....... they could just be calling you out on actually making a stawman argument. Ya know, like you were with the whole projectile thing over the last few pages. No one ever suggested that powershielding and proper movement to avoid projectiles weren't fundamentals and yet that's the stance that you were arguing against. You fabricated a weaker, less logical argument in place of the existing one that you disagreed with to make your own points seem more valid.

Normally I don't care about this sort of crap, because someone using a fallacy to support their argument doesn't inherently make the argument any less valid, but the nonsensical nature of what you were saying annoyed me enough to speak up.
 

Frost | Odds

Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Joined
Nov 12, 2013
Messages
2,328
Location
Calgary, Alberta
nah, it's because nobody who accuses anybody of making a strawman argument actually has any idea what a strawman argument is (else they wouldn't be making the accusation), and is indicative of a person who's more interested in appearing to be the most intelligent person present than actually discussing whatever it is that's being discussed
Not that I don't find your posts endlessly entertaining, but you make straw men like you're paid per unit and you've got a baker's dozen starving children to feed.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
lmao... people saying "MM me in the build where my character is OP"

It's also pretty cute how a lot of the socal guys want to run 3.02 tourneys/fests. Just check their FB page, its hilarious LOL
 

Bleck

Smash Master
Joined
May 27, 2010
Messages
3,133
Not that I don't find your posts endlessly entertaining, but you make straw men like you're paid per unit and you've got a baker's dozen starving children to feed.
wait is a baker's dozen 11 or 6
 

menotyou135

Smash Journeyman
Joined
Oct 22, 2013
Messages
313
Location
Tampa FL
Idk if you got his point. To him, you're saying Multishining is only "kinda dumb" because its a lot harder to do; hes saying if someone could multishine consistently (regardless of top level play or not) its "hella dumb"... aka just as dumb or worse than Tele-nair. In a TAS world how hard a tech is doesnt matter, most of the stuff you listed should be attepted to be done perfectly every time.. a move shouldnt become "dumber" just because someone mastered it, it was already "dumb" in theory.
And I get that. I am saying the reality is that nobody can truley do it consistently otherwise every shine a high level fox hits on a marth (and other characters) would lead to the shine infinite to up smash. The fact is that is possible with enough skill. My point I am trying to make is that TeleHover-Nair between a decent player and the best mewtwo player in the world is essentially the same with the only difference being deciding when to use it. If something is super effecitve, it should require the best in the world to be able to do consistently.

That is why I listed all the ATs. Only the best in the world should be able to pull them off semi-consistently in conjunction with one another for a Bo5 set, and only TAS should be able to do them every time. If someone at my local tourney can do something as good as a triple waveshine, while being only a decent player, then that option is probably too easy to do.

But that is beside the point. Telehover-Nair was so central to mewtwo's playstyle that you would see many decent to high level players spam the crap out of it with no punishment. If his other options weren't also really good, you probably would have seen a Nairizard style of mewtwo player become really common where one option is so much better than the rest that it is the default approach 80% of the time.

The core of my argument is that Telehover-Nair is one of the easier tech's mewtwo has, while also being arguably the best. The difference is that Shine is one of the hardest techs fox has, while being arguably the best.

Reward should be proportional to skill required to achieve reward. When this is not the case, the rewarding option needs to be altered. This is the core of all competitive titles. It's the reason PMDT removed the turnaround Side B on squirtle and made nair less effective on charizard despite them not being high tiers; it's the reason Starcraft nerfed 6-pool/4-gate strategies; and it's the reason armor lock was removed between Halo Reach and Halo 4.

Risk vs reward is a core fundamental to game design. When reward comes without the risk of messing up the technique or getting punished for using it, it is ****ing with this core fundamental. That is why PMDT altered Mewtwo.
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
sorry seagull bro

guess you'll have to live with the fact that I was ranked above you through the life of 3.02 with a ****ing low tier and without a local I could go to every week to inflate my ranking.

them's the breaks
 

TheGravyTrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Apr 5, 2014
Messages
866
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Ferndale, WA
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Theboyingreen
13. If a baker was contracted to make 12 of something and it ended up too light, they were killed (thought to be cheating the king by making it hollow, etc...). To avoid this, they would make 13 just in case... #themoreyouknow
 
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Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
Sep 14, 2008
Messages
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Location
Maryland
NNID
SeagullJoe
sorry seagull bro

guess you'll have to live with the fact that I was ranked above you through the life of 3.02 with a ****ing low tier and without a local I could go to every week to inflate my ranking.

them's the breaks
Yea, you just inflated it from Big House, which gave massive points because it was put into swf correctly, while zenith wasn't @_@. You a g0d tho.

:018:
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Sen me stuffs on skype plz?
Send you what? Here's some Tool albums https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ad92CuQD0vA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G_SG41-MKTc
Im starting to think you have just a whole labratory stored with info, leaking it out little by little which each post or video lol.
@ SpiderMad SpiderMad do you ever write this stuff down? I feel like you have an entire bank of knowledge stored somewhere and you occasionally leak some out to us.
PMDepot has ~600 videos total with the unlisted. Some of it useless, like M2K telling us why Control sticks suck for trying to do perfect wavelands on stage (then he wanted to buy the guy's controller because it didn't suck, but he'd only do it for $100 (this guy lol), and then M2K of course said that's unreasonable and furiously paraded him with analogies of how he's not going to be Fighting Armada in EVO anytime soon; didn't capture any of that but it all happened soon after this) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mgiKHotXu7A

If you read Kadano's posts he mentions the hardest think about knowing stuff is figuring out to compile, organize, and present it. The closest thing we've done with Magus was some guy compiled a thread on his and other's posts: see General Stuff tab here http://smashboards.com/threads/the-falcon-index-thread-new-post-of-the-week-by-magus.307911/

Then there's various threads like this that will inform you on random stuff. http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=259617 Like Marth's counter has his foot bare and able to puncture him out of his Counter

Once in a while I do make a compilation of a post or thread for something though like this: http://smashboards.com/threads/understanding-auto-cancels-and-iasa-concerning-up-air-bair.332160/

Threads and stuff don't matter anymore though, it's all about videos. And even then, me and Kadano have to eventually power up and over-throw this reddit trend where people keep making basics of the game ones while inserting misleading information over and over. Mac D made a good video though https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zvNgmahChOM

But even then, nothing matters in comparison to Light Press Air dodge. If there's something the masses need to care about it's the sake of your hand's health and future ability to even play the game. Beyond the ergonomic stand point, it's ease to press also relates to it being overall faster to use and everything (though it does have its downfalls, many listed in the thread). It's just really complicated to get across and have it work for the people it needs to reach, with so many things in the way. But I am grateful every day that it is still in the game in some way (Wifi set). Enough people get exposed to it, enough will realize the benefits.
http://smashboards.com/threads/a-di...ad-thing-health-related.360937/#post-17071426
 

Ripple

ᗣᗣᗣᗣ ᗧ·····•·····
Joined
Sep 4, 2006
Messages
9,632
Yea, you just inflated it from Big House, which gave massive points because it was put into swf correctly, while zenith wasn't @_@. You a g0d tho.

:018:
oh zenith, that PM tournament that had a 165 entrants where you got 140 points for it for 7th place. compared to Shuffle V that I went to with 128 entrants that I got 7th place also and got half as many points.

youre right, it wasn't entered correctly, you should have less points
 

Seagull Joe

Smash Legend
Joined
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Messages
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Maryland
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SeagullJoe
oh zenith, that PM tournament that had a 165 entrants where you got 140 points for it for 7th place. compared to Shuffle V that I went to with 128 entrants that I got 7th place also and got half as many points.

youre right, it wasn't entered correctly, you should have less points
Lol whatever.

:018:
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL
**** seagull, can't even do your math homework but you trying to talk on the internet?!?
 

The_NZA

Smash Lord
Joined
Apr 7, 2007
Messages
1,979
I know some people were interested in hearing what Numerics had to say about the ZSS changes. I've posted them in a few places, but I figure i'll post them here.

- The idea that a standard grab made the blaster->grab setup more powerful is pretty much not true. Her tether grab was the entire reason that setup was so powerful. The ability to threaten a grab setup from mid-range was only guaranteed by the fact that the dash cancel + tether allowed her to theoretically land the grab before the blaster even got to the opponent. A standard grab severely reduces the range at which it's effective. Safer, yes, but much less potent. And while it is easy enough to avoid the setup by jumping out, that option is covered by nair so it was a 50/50 with a solid combo for guessing right and a hard punish for guessing wrong.

- Blaster needed to be nerfed. It wasn't the best projectile in the game, but projectiles needed to be toned down across the board. Removing the dash cancel, in my opinion, was not the way to do it. Lots of characters can cancel moves in lots of different ways, but ZSS was the only character in any smash game who could cancel a move by dashing. This created a lot of technical depth unique to her and opened up some interesting options for the people willing to figure her out and put the time in. Promoting technical depth is one of PM's stated objectives, so I would go on record saying that removing the technique runs counter to PM's stated goals. I understand for balance issues the projectile needs to be nerfed, but there has to be a better way than removing one of the most unique techs in the game.
- One suggestion, instead of removing the dash cancel, would be to keep 3.5's speed but severely reduce the distance it travels (maybe to 1/3). This would eliminate her followup options at mid/long range but give her a nice setup option in close quarters, while still preventing blaster->grab from being too powerful / guaranteed. And it would be consistent with Metroid Zero Mission where the thing went nowhere.

- ZSS's new dthrow/uthrow are complete garbage. Even with the ability to grab out of shield she's probably still better off resetting to neutral and trying to set something up. The idea of a potential DI mixup with d/uthrow for combo and f/bthrow for kills is interesting and helps freshen up her repetitive throw game, but it only works near the edge at mid/high percents. It would be nice if uthrow and dthrow had opposite escape di for at least a mixup option, but down and away will get you out of both. I'm not saying bring her old dthrow back, but in a game where most every character has at least somewhat reliable followups to a grab, she needs something to make it worth using.

- I'm not sure what to think about the standard grab. The old tether was an offensive grab with great set ups into it and uses as a mid-combo tool, at the cost of not being able to grab out of shield and being laggy if you messed up. The new one is more defensive, just like every other grab. The old tether better fit the archetype of the character as a combo machine with a powerful neutral at the cost of poor defenses, but I can understand the appeal of wanting a safer grab. If I had to vote though I'd go with the old tether.

- I donít mind the change to nair so long as they keep the changes to uair/dair. Mixing it up to keep a combo going is a nice change of pace from just shffl nairing as fast as I can.

- On a more positive note, pretty much every other change I think they did a good job with. They did a great job of nerfing her recovery without giving her awkward handicaps or taking away options.

- For me, the biggest appeal of ZSS is that she's a nonstandard character with a lot of technical potential, but not necessarily requiring fast fingers to play her. She's a character who's unique properties make her somewhat difficult to pick up but a great reward if you put the time and effort into learning her. My fear with 3.5 is that she loses a lot of what makes her unique in the cast, and smash in general, and becomes more of a standard, pick-up-and-go kind of a character as a result.
 
D

Deleted member

Guest
Ike seems really good in this build

I expect the ikes to do really good now. If metroid loses in tourney I'm blaming obama
 

Thane of Blue Flames

Fire is catching.
Joined
Nov 23, 2013
Messages
3,135
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The other side of Sanity
Ike has had a relatively unaltered playstyle for a while, which got pretty solidified around 2.6. So we have that going for us.

Kind frustrating that we auto-lose matchups to characters with low crouches though lol

And super frustrating that one of those characters is SHEIK.
 

SpiderMad

Smash Master
Joined
May 6, 2012
Messages
4,968
Ike has had a relatively unaltered playstyle for a while, which got pretty solidified around 2.6. So we have that going for us.

Kind frustrating that we auto-lose matchups to characters with low crouches though lol

And super frustrating that one of those characters is SHEIK.
Did you beat CaptainFaceRoll or was that lordhelmet?
 

GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
Joined
May 8, 2009
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Orlando, FL
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MetalDude
Other side of sanity, aka Iowa (not rly).

Also yeah, Sheik. That's a fun one. Needles and a crazy good DD make it tough to get in without getting annihilated. Gotta be so careful in that MU.
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Ike doesn't "auto lose" to Sheik for ****s sake. His +5 endlag on QDA did not shift the MU 10+ points. His walljump nerf did not shift the MU 10+ points. His throw game, which ****s Sheik did not get changed. His combo game which corner carries at will did not change. The fact that he can yolo QD offstage into hitting Sheik so she has to take longer to recover did not change and the fact that Ike has possibly the most favorable way to keep hitting Sheik back off stage did not change.

The MU was 5-5 in 3.02 and is 5-5 in 3.5.

Get better.
 
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GP&B

Ike 'n' Ike
Joined
May 8, 2009
Messages
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Orlando, FL
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MetalDude
Huh, my bad on that. Not DD but just decent dash in. Forgot her DD was poop. It's defs not auto-lose at all, just that she can overwhelm Ike in close quarters (but this is Ike so that isn't exactly new).
 

Hinichii.ez.™

insincere personality
Joined
Nov 2, 2013
Messages
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hinichii
3DS FC
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How you get 5-5 3.5 still got that new car smell
Show me the carfax
 

Juushichi

sugoi ~ sugoi ~
Joined
Dec 8, 2009
Messages
5,518
Location
Columbus, Ohio
Sorry, but as a PMDT salesman there is under the hood maintenance stuff that doesn't see the light of day. But you got to pay all of $0.00 for this new car, so you can't complain that much. ; )
 

MLGF

Smash Lord
Joined
Jun 19, 2013
Messages
1,922
I mean, I thought it was 55-45 Sheik's favor in 3.0, but I feel essentially the same in 3.5.
Sheik:Ike hasn't changed gents, let's quit acting like this matchup dooms us. I know this is overstated, but learn the damn MU.
My state has so many Sheiks and only the best one gives me any difficulty. Pick stages with platforms, recover low, and don't ***** about the MU. It's better then Ike's worst in 3.0 by a huuuuggggeeee Margin.
 
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PootisKonga

Smash Ace
Joined
Oct 4, 2014
Messages
842
Location
Medford, NY
So, how's that Bowser fellow faring so far?

Edit: Aww, I missed the conversation about a frame 1 projectile reflecting jump-cancellable non-CCable combo-starting aerial mobility stalling semi-spike?
 
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