Tier List Speculation

[Shadic]

Firespike had meteor-levels of KB and was actually a spike.

End of firespike was Ganon's Dair, but not a meteor, basically.

 

[Ripple]

--Spike hitbox angle changed from 270 to 281
--Spike hitbox BKB lowered from 70 to 20
--Spike hitbox KBG lowered from 100 to 80

an angle of 270 means its a meteor. unless they specifically programmed it to not be cancellable. 281 is still a meteor also.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I thought meteors were just 260-280°? Wasn't the angle on Tink's like a full revolution around so it wouldn't fall in that range but would still have the angle? Like 630° i guess.

 

[steelguttey]

unchanged from 3.02= top tier nerfed = mid tier

olimar still in there baybeeeeee

 

[DMG]

Olimar is a buster. You're about to be Steelbuster if you keep this up

 

[Deleted member]

Olimar wasn't unchanged from 3.02 to 3.5

Olimar is ****ing awful in 3.5. I think he might actually be the worst character in the game, @ Oracle can vouch for me

 

[mimgrim]

I'm not quite comfortable saying Olimar is the worst character in 3.5. But I do know he is much less fun to play in 3.5, almost as unfun as Smash 4 Olimar. Not that I care that much about it. There are like 6+ characters in 3.5 that I find to be immensely fun to play and just feel fantastic to me and I will at least always have Olimar in Brawl xD.

 

[Oracle]

Olimar is almost certainly the worst in the game. There is absolutely nothing good about the character that could justify his hilariously bad recovery.

 

[DMG]

Olimar is the patron saint of recycling, he deserves better

 

[SpiderMad]

Olimar is almost certainly the worst in the game. There is absolutely nothing good about the character that could justify his hilariously bad recovery.

do you feel the nerfs to him were dumb?

 

[kaizo13]

here's an idea for Olimar. give his grounded down-b super armor that allows him to instantly counter attack if successful

the timing would be extremely strict. He would take full damage from the attack but zero knockback and would only be available if olimar has all 4 pikmin. I think a big risk big reward mechanic like this could bring some hype moments for Oli.

the fact that you take full damage and can potentially get KO'd if you mistime it makes this a very very risky move, but also how clutch would it be to parry a smash attack at 200% to steal the win?

 

[DMG]

If your character can't kill Olimar at 200%, they deserve to die like that

Also he should be an actual good character and not have a gimmick counter

I propose we give his Pikmin individual super powers

 

[steelguttey]

his recovery is still bad but he still has the best pivot grab in the game and uthrow leads to alot.

plus i never said he was unchanged.

he got nerfed, but he isnt useless like you guys are saying

 

[DMG]

His grabs are good and bad, sometimes you don't want those little porkers lingering for so long. Grab and be done!

 

[Soft Serve]

I waited a week so the 3.5 salt and complaining would die down again. It took forever for the ness talk to stop

Just want to say that Diddy is still really good, but my god do us diddy mains have to adapt to the changes. They changes didn't really nerf diddy so much as they completely changed what his goals are as a character

Imo he goes from a stage control+simple combo game+good kill power character to a tech chasing monster with good kill setups but weak kill moves. Nothing works at early%'s anymore so diddy has to either play campy or net multiple grabs and moves. Nair got knockback changes that make combos better later, but it doesn't put people into tumble for so long that even if they didn't CC it, they can just punish you for landing it.
I get the idea of wanting things to not work at lower percents, most characters are like that, but most characters also dont get punished for grabbing and combo throwing the opponent at low %s.

New up-throw is like the most frustrating design i've ever seen though. "Hey, lets get rid of his kill throw, and slap this new combo throw onto him. Oh wait, we were trying to get rid of guarenteed combo throws for the most part, and these numbers on it are way too good. Lets not change the number again, and instead add 10 frames of lag onto the end to make follow ups actually just harder to do."
It honestly feels like they threw Melee shieks D-throw onto diddy and realized it was still stupid, so they gave him a lot of extra lag to taunt the players with what almost was. Getting punished for throwing floaties at low percents feels horrible, and it losing the DI mix-up with Dthrow is really stupid because now there is always one direction of optimal DI for diddy's combo throws (behind diddy), but its still really good. Its a tech-chasing monster of a throw on a speedy character that constantly wants to force the opponent to be rolling on the ground because it controls it. The end lag makes it almost impossible to platform tech chase unless they miss the tech and go for normal wakeups, but eh.

Up-smash actually just doesn't work now which is stupid. Every character can just hold down and shield and get out of it, same with Fsmash (they could do that in 3.02 as well, just easier now). This completely kills fast faller MU's that aren't falcon imo.

I think since the Meta looks like it will be controled by spacies+Marth/shiek Diddy would be lucky to be high tier. **** that fox MU, it was horrible before, but now our combos dont actually start working on him till like, 60% because upsmash doesn't work as a move, and unless its FD or a large stage we can't tech chase him forever, 70/30 fox easy.

I really hope diddy players stick with the character, but if they dont like the new playstyle forced onto him I understand. It makes complete sense for a character with so many tools to win neutral multiple times to have to win neutral multiple times to take a stock. Most characters have similar balancing, and it'd be silly to ask to have for both fantastic neutral winning tools and stock taking tools without also already having a shine.

Also, why add the extra 3 frames of end lag onto Fair, just specifically so we can't Fair>DJ/waveland anymore qq. You already made it kill 20+%later, at least let it have fun interactions with bananas.

I'm over the nerfs mostly, but my god **** the upsmash changes

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Do you repent, for choosing diddy kang yet?

 

[MagnesD3]

Id still argue a positive change for Olimar would be a fixed order on his pikmin. (4 purple pikmins cough).

 

[didds]

his recovery is still bad but he still has the best pivot grab in the game and uthrow leads to alot.

EVEN BETTER THAN YOSHI'S??? I CAN'T BELIEVE IT!!!

 

[The_NZA]

Found out that PM 3.5 doesn't fully replicate Ness's bair from Melee, meaning it is nerfed from Melee. If this gets corrected, there is more hope for Ness's neutral game yet.

http://smashboards.com/threads/nesss-bair-is-better-safer-in-melee.378960/

Cheers Ness players and rejoice! Let the PMDT give us our options back (without the melee weaknesses )!

 

[Jolteon]

an angle of 270 means its a meteor. unless they specifically programmed it to not be cancellable. 281 is still a meteor also.

The angle was technically 630 (effectively 270), which means it was out of MC range.

 

[Anonistry]

Wait, double round so it is the same angle but herps the computation up?

You know, I think sometimes programmers don't realize how absurd the solutions they can come up with, due to the characteristics of code, can sound. I mean, its a simple concept, but at the same time, I just imagine a computer going "WELL DAH NUMBAH'S WRONG, SO DERE!!!"

... I probably should go to bed now.

 

[Oracle]

Olimar had a great design in 3.02. The pikmin had differing effects to reward you for filtering/ordering them well, and the flowering aspect really rewarded aggressive play. Sure, you could run away and spam pivot grab; but the rewards you get are tiny compared to just going in with your powerful, ranged aerials. The flowering also disincentivized the pikmin toss by rewarding you for keeping your pikmin alive and gave a neat risk/reward with trading off your pikmin to use as a projectile, since that made it really difficult to keep them around to become flowered.

Obviously olimar had some stuff that didn't really fit in a 3.5 environment, like a tether recovery with a quick hop up and a hitbox, or an upsmash that comboed into itself, but 3.5 removed every interesting or deep mechanic about olimar. He has no kill power, has worse throw followups on dthrow, his upsmash doesn't combo into much because its slower, and all of these nerfs are on TOP of having probably the worst recovery in the game! Olimar got completely neutered for absolutely no reason, leaving him an overall worse character with less depth and skill involved to play. And the worst part is that he actually plays lamer than before! "Now I don't get rewarded for going in? Guess I'm gonna spam pivot grab and never approach! Oh, pikmin health is lowered and I never get rewards for keeping them alive long enough to flower? Now there's no reason for me not to run away and spam side b! Purple smashes aren't as strong even if I flower them, have shorter ranged smashes/grabs
, and they have half as much health? Better chuck those bad boys!" The optimal olimar strategy as I can tell is to just throw away reds and yellows, camp with pikmin toss to farm for purples and blues, and just run away the whole time. Snoooooozefest

Also, can we talk about how the 'buffs' to yellow pikmin are some of the laziest and most useless 'buffs' to make them useful? Oh great, my yellow fsmash is 1 frame faster! I've always just thought "man, if only my moves were one to two frames faster, then they would be great!"

Olimar just needs to be reverted to 3.02 and then worked with from there. Keep in mind I never use olimar in tourament so this doesn't really affect me, but its just bad game design and sloppy work to make a complete overhaul like this without any sort of thought to how it would affect his overall gameplay (or at the very least, very poor foresight).

 

[The_NZA]

Olimar had a great design in 3.02. The pikmin had differing effects to reward you for filtering/ordering them well, and the flowering aspect really rewarded aggressive play. Sure, you could run away and spam pivot grab; but the rewards you get are tiny compared to just going in with your powerful, ranged aerials. The flowering also disincentivized the pikmin toss by rewarding you for keeping your pikmin alive and gave a neat risk/reward with trading off your pikmin to use as a projectile, since that made it really difficult to keep them around to become flowered.

Obviously olimar had some stuff that didn't really fit in a 3.5 environment, like a tether recovery with a quick hop up and a hitbox, or an upsmash that comboed into itself, but 3.5 removed every interesting or deep mechanic about olimar. He has no kill power, has worse throw followups on dthrow, his upsmash doesn't combo into much because its slower, and all of these nerfs are on TOP of having probably the worst recovery in the game! Olimar got completely neutered for absolutely no reason, leaving him an overall worse character with less depth and skill involved to play. And the worst part is that he actually plays lamer than before! "Now I don't get rewarded for going in? Guess I'm gonna spam pivot grab and never approach! Oh, pikmin health is lowered and I never get rewards for keeping them alive long enough to flower? Now there's no reason for me not to run away and spam side b! Purple smashes aren't as strong even if I flower them, have shorter ranged smashes/grabs
, and they have half as much health? Better chuck those bad boys!" The optimal olimar strategy as I can tell is to just throw away reds and yellows, camp with pikmin toss to farm for purples and blues, and just run away the whole time. Snoooooozefest

Also, can we talk about how the 'buffs' to yellow pikmin are some of the laziest and most useless 'buffs' to make them useful? Oh great, my yellow fsmash is 1 frame faster! I've always just thought "man, if only my moves were one to two frames faster, then they would be great!"

Olimar just needs to be reverted to 3.02 and then worked with from there. Keep in mind I never use olimar in tourament so this doesn't really affect me, but its just bad game design and sloppy work to make a complete overhaul like this without any sort of thought to how it would affect his overall gameplay (or at the very least, very poor foresight).

I'm curious how you feel Olimar's edge guarding game has faired in 3.5. I always saw Olimar and Ness as similar archetypes in some key ways--big combos off of grabs, and good edge gaurds. The big difference is, Olimar has much better disjoints while Ness has a much better recovery.

I just figured characters like Squritle, Olimar, and Ness would become monster edgeguarders in this patch. Also, Olimar's fsmash seems pretty good all things considered in this new version of smash, where people have a lot less movement BS to get around a neutral game of dash dancing and safely spaced pokes.

 

[trash?]

"Olimar just needs to be reverted to 3.02"

no? no. olimar was trash then, now he's just trash that doesn't invalidate the default mario costume but not the doctor one

burn his design philosophy and start over

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

zzz @ Oracle how does the flowering system incourage aggrosive play, at all? Maybe I'm reading your post wrong. But if I'm not... You have to wait 30 seconds before your moves are optimized. If anything, that would incourage defensive play. It would be a different story, if like, every time a Pikmin inflected dmg, the timer to become fully matured was decreased. I mean no matter what you do, you must wait 30 seconds to have a flowered pikmin.

 

[JOE!]

Man, why did a lot of zards moves get like +2 lag/iasa lag?

 

[Mr.Pickle]

So how bout that new Wario? Are Link/Mewtwo/Ivy nearly as hard as they were? Any new tough matchups?

I love the new wario! All the jank from his character design has been washed away, and it makes me so happy lol.

Mewtwo won't be an impossible match up I feel like, but I'll have to play it to get the specifics. Same with ivy, except I don't know if that character is still janky, so that match up is a big question mark for me. Link loses to wario, pretty decently. Neutral is still kinda hard for wario, but he has the movement to deal with the projectiles if he doesn't let himself get overwhelmed. The thing that sinks link in this match up is his inability to kill or edge guard him, and wario can kill him at 80 maybe less. All of link's supposed kill moves are very easy to di because of the angle they send at, and his nair off stage just helps wario recovery, while at the same time putting link in a very horrible position. I could go on but moral of the story is that link loses lol.

Oh forgot to mention you can just jump to invalidate link's grab, unless it's his hand but when is that going to happen, so have fun being one of two characters that can't grab out of the air.

 

[B.W.]

Olimar was probably upper mid in 3.02.

Olimar is probably bottom 10 in 3.5.

Tether recoveries being nerfed as hard as they did means you literally only have to get Olimar off the stage and then hog the edge. When he pops up, just hit him away before he touches the ground and hog the edge again. Then do it one more time and then taunt because he can't come back anymore unless he got hit high up.

This wouldn't matter so much, but he still doesn't pose much threat in neutral. He didn't really pose much threat in neutral in 3.02 either, but he had a stupid punish game that involved you getting juggled for days until you got hit with F-Air and died. I don't disagree that this needed touching up, but one of Olimar's strong points was that he was able to recover very well, so long as his Pikmin didn't fall apart.

He might be a bit more rounded out if he could actually recover because his punish game is still there, it's just harder.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Juushichi]

LMAO
Falcon vs. Bowser on FD... Umbreon hold me

This is basically the goal of Falcon in that MU, Lunchables c'mon man.

He's going to hold you tenderly, then throw you on the ground which bounces you in the air or just throw you into the air and then thrust his knee in your face.

You'll be electrocuted for some reason, but don't worry... it won't last long!

I think Yoshi was dumb in 3.02, but didn't get much play. Same as Olimar.

I think they're both dumb in 3.5, but worse because they needed to be toned down like they were. Where they lie within the cast, idk. The players will have to distinguish themselves. (or in SS's case, again).

Also fwiw, Hamyojo Yoshi knocked Sethlion Roy into losers a few days ago.

 

[Frost | Odds]

This thread needs more tire lust.

Note that I haven't played as, or even with most characters yet. this is mostly just first impressions and pulled entirely from my ass.

1:

2:

3:

4:


inb4 Toon @Lunchables telling me I'm a scrub and/or Tink should be 4 tiers higher.

Also curious of what @[FBC] ESAM (how to make tag work?)
thinks of Samus in a new, more fastfaller/spacie-centric meta.

edit: also, stealth-editing this thing.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Oracle]

Flowering promotes aggro because olimars only real defensive tool is side b, and if you side b your pikmin probably arent gonna live to be flowered. If you just try to run for 30 seconds without side bing, youll just get demolished by any projectile character, which is already a thing olimar struggles with.

Thank you canon for that wonderful input, but if you wanna talk with the big boys you need to provide this thing called "evidence".

 

[steelguttey]

Olimar had a great design in 3.02. The pikmin had differing effects to reward you for filtering/ordering them well, and the flowering aspect really rewarded aggressive play. Sure, you could run away and spam pivot grab; but the rewards you get are tiny compared to just going in with your powerful, ranged aerials.

no they arent. you would get 60% off of one pivot grab and your aerials wouldnt get you ****. his design was awful it was a ****ed up character that got powerful for the reason of running away and even then he gets ridiculous damage off of you.

The flowering also disincentivized the pikmin toss by rewarding you for keeping your pikmin alive and gave a neat risk/reward with trading off your pikmin to use as a projectile, since that made it really difficult to keep them around to become flowered.

pikmin throw wasnt a risk reward thing cause pikmin didnt die. the only pikmin that died was white and even then thats after it did like 25%

Obviously olimar had some stuff that didn't really fit in a 3.5 environment, like a tether recovery with a quick hop up and a hitbox, or an upsmash that comboed into itself, but 3.5 removed every interesting or deep mechanic about olimar. He has no kill power, has worse throw followups on dthrow, his upsmash doesn't combo into much because its slower, and all of these nerfs are on TOP of having probably the worst recovery in the game!

interesting and deep is still there. you still have to manage pikmin and uthrow still has combo potential. his down smash sucks now which it shouldnt but his usmash still combos into a lot. just not into as much as before. no kill power? uthrow still kills really early and usmash still kills earlier too. they also buffed dair which gave him some cool combo followups

also, talking about how boring olimar is isnt really a topic im gonna address cause hes still fun to me and i think he has deep gameplan.

Also, can we talk about how the 'buffs' to yellow pikmin are some of the laziest and most useless 'buffs' to make them useful? Oh great, my yellow fsmash is 1 frame faster! I've always just thought "man, if only my moves were one to two frames faster, then they would be great!"

yellows were complete and utter **** in 3.0 and now theyre slightly better. theyre better for combos because they have less knockback and they start faster.

Olimar just needs to be reverted to 3.02 and then worked with from there. Keep in mind I never use olimar in tourament so this doesn't really affect me, but its just bad game design and sloppy work to make a complete overhaul like this without any sort of thought to how it would affect his overall gameplay (or at the very least, very poor foresight).

olimar in 3.0 was total bull****. just gonna say it. ask anyone who practices with ss often (neon) and they will say the same. he could use side b for free and not get punished at all for it and rack up % then kill you with a pivot grab. his only flaws were his bad matchups and now those characters got nerfed pretty hard except for marth and ike.

Flowering promotes aggro because olimars only real defensive tool is side b, and if you side b your pikmin probably arent gonna live to be flowered. If you just try to run for 30 seconds without side bing, youll just get demolished by any projectile character, which is already a thing olimar struggles with.

Thank you canon for that wonderful input, but if you wanna talk with the big boys you need to provide this thing called "evidence".

lol his only defensive tool? olimar could (and still can) stuff aerial approaches with uair or usmash, and pikmin clanked and lived without any scratches when thrown at samus missles (even though that matchup sucked and still does). he had a stupid defensive game in his pivot grabbing alone, if you didnt have a projectile or a big ol sword you were ****ed.

 

[trash?]

Thank you canon for that wonderful input, but if you wanna talk with the big boys you need to provide this thing called "evidence".

you mean the change pointed out by PMDT when people started moaning, where reds were invulnerable to fire, and thus default mario's projectiles didn't work, but the doc skin did?

or are you referring to the general point, in which case I'd like to point out that SS has known to lose because RNG didn't play nicely?

sorry that I enjoy playing a game that emphasizes skill, perhaps you'd prefer gambling

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

If ganon isn't god tier you ****ed up your tier list

 

[Bazkip]

If ganon isn't god tier you ****ed up your tier list

My tier list

Top Tier:
Ganon

Bottom Tier:
Everyone else

My opinion is 100% accurate and more valid than everyone else

I was right all along

 

[Oracle]

Canon youve already demonstrated youre not willing to let go of 'random=no skill', but as ive pointed out in the oast, you can control the odds to be in your favor. SS chooses not to manage or order his pikmin at all, which means he chooses to gamble that hell have the right pikmin when he needs it. In hundreds of games with olimar, ive only lost a game because of a pikmin color once, and that was when I had been playing olimar for about 2 weeks

 

[trash?]

and the reason I didn't take it seriously back then is because you don't know what "controlling the odds" actually means. it doesn't mean "being apathetic to your odds", for the record. judgement hammer having ways of limiting what you see next time you use it is controlling the odds, just dealing with whatever RNG gives you, being well-aware that there's objectively better results from RNG than the ones you might get, is exactly the source of my complaint

 

[Frost | Odds]

control the odds

"controlling the odds"

"being apathetic to your odds"

it is controlling the odds

I have chosen ... poorly.