Tier List Speculation

[JayTheUnseen]

Ganondorf does feel a bit too good.Just feels like it's easier to win with him.He's not my main for the record.

 

[steelguttey]

rng is bull**** but at least it isnt based off the type of platform he was on holy **** remember that

a pmdt member says that they are still looking for a way to remove rng from him in an appropriate which (hopefully) means that they arent doing a set pikmin order

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[CORY]

yeah, he's a noob crusher (not firing shots at you, jay, i promise!) but once you figure out what his usual gameplan is he gets much easier to deal with.

even with float giving him a few more options, his neutral isn't super strong and it's easy for other characters to dictate the pace of the match, unless he has the stock lead. though, i wouldn't be surprised if he's actually ended up a bit more potent than pmdt intended, but it's hard to tell with people still getting used to their characters' new metagames and stuff.

and, yeah, that down taunt has heavy armor on it, apparently a coding mistake. someone or other said that's going to be fixed in their upcoming bug patch (whenever that happens).

 

[Tagxy]

and the reason I didn't take it seriously back then is because you don't know what "controlling the odds" actually means. it doesn't mean "being apathetic to your odds", for the record. judgement hammer having ways of limiting what you see next time you use it is controlling the odds, just dealing with whatever RNG gives you, being well-aware that there's objectively better results from RNG than the ones you might get, is exactly the source of my complaint

No offense but this is a limited perspective of what RNG actually is. Risk management is a thing, and one of the deeper elements that can exist in competitive gameplay when done well. I'm not an olimar main so Im not going to comment on whether pikmin pluck does a good job of this or not, but if it seemed so for those who invested time into understanding their character youd have to have some extremely good reasoning as to why theyre wrong (not sure what SS's opinions on the matter are).

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No, the Down-Taunt is *supposed* to have medium armor on it. What is *does* have is Super Armor. As in the kind that keeps trucking even when hit at KO percents.

Also Ganon is definitely not too good. He's still a big old fat character with an optimal reach that you can invade and poor defensive options to boot. Not floaty enough to escape combos, but not a fastfaller to convert launchers into tech chase situations or survive vertical KOs, with lots of big meaty exposed hurtboxes without a good GTFO option and the actual worst recovery in the game.

As good a tool as hover is it's not going to magically make up for all of Ganon's weaknesses. The same combos still work on him and mix-up from high or not he is still easier to edgeguard than Roy. His neutral is only slightly less piss than before.

 

[CORY]

No, the Down-Taunt is *supposed* to have medium armor on it. What is *does* have is Super Armor. As in the kind that keeps trucking even when hit at KO percents.

that's what i meant. it had the wrong armor class.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

tbh I'd much prefer if the super armor remained because it's hilarious

 

[Frost | Odds]

Ganon... the actual worst recovery in the game.

False. He doesn't have a hell of a lot of distance, but like Roy, it's actually fiendishly difficult to hit him out of his up-B -- on top of having the down B and the ganoncide option against opponents who get too randy offstage. Roy, Falco, Wolf, Luigi, Squirtle, Ness, Bowser, CF all have worse recoveries IMO.

 

[Soft Serve]

False. He doesn't have a hell of a lot of distance, but like Roy, it's actually fiendishly difficult to hit him out of his up-B -- on top of having the down B and the ganoncide option against opponents who get too randy offstage. Roy, Falco, Wolf, Luigi, Squirtle, Ness, Bowser, CF all have worse recoveries IMO.

You just grab ledge and hit him out from below him, just like you would in melee. You dont get grabbed unless you try to contest it head on and miss place your hitboxes

Falcon's has more mix-up potential than ganon, but is still really bad. Ness's recovery is no where near bad lol. Not since they took the hitboxes off his butt and put it on his head. Falco/Wolf actually have mixups that are speedy, squirtle has really good hitboxes covering his up-b still, and has good enough air speed to normally just drift back to stage the first time.
I trust you on Bowser though, that recovery is booty. Ganon's is still really bad.
Worst recoveries right now I think Ivy/Olimar because they have to tether and you can just hit them back off stage. Roy/Ganon/Falcon/Bowser at least have some semblance of a high/low recovery and fade away mixups, these two, expecially olimar, are just bad.

 

[steelguttey]

yea olimar still has real bad recovery that got nerfed sadly

 

[Frost | Odds]

What's an Olimar? We don't have one of those in 3.5

 

[steelguttey]

we didnt have them in 3.0 either

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[leekslap]

I waited a week so the 3.5 salt and complaining would die down again. It took forever for the ness talk to stop

Just want to say that Diddy is still really good, but my god do us diddy mains have to adapt to the changes. They changes didn't really nerf diddy so much as they completely changed what his goals are as a character

Imo he goes from a stage control+simple combo game+good kill power character to a tech chasing monster with good kill setups but weak kill moves. Nothing works at early%'s anymore so diddy has to either play campy or net multiple grabs and moves. Nair got knockback changes that make combos better later, but it doesn't put people into tumble for so long that even if they didn't CC it, they can just punish you for landing it.
I get the idea of wanting things to not work at lower percents, most characters are like that, but most characters also dont get punished for grabbing and combo throwing the opponent at low %s.

New up-throw is like the most frustrating design i've ever seen though. "Hey, lets get rid of his kill throw, and slap this new combo throw onto him. Oh wait, we were trying to get rid of guarenteed combo throws for the most part, and these numbers on it are way too good. Lets not change the number again, and instead add 10 frames of lag onto the end to make follow ups actually just harder to do."
It honestly feels like they threw Melee shieks D-throw onto diddy and realized it was still stupid, so they gave him a lot of extra lag to taunt the players with what almost was. Getting punished for throwing floaties at low percents feels horrible, and it losing the DI mix-up with Dthrow is really stupid because now there is always one direction of optimal DI for diddy's combo throws (behind diddy), but its still really good. Its a tech-chasing monster of a throw on a speedy character that constantly wants to force the opponent to be rolling on the ground because it controls it. The end lag makes it almost impossible to platform tech chase unless they miss the tech and go for normal wakeups, but eh.

Up-smash actually just doesn't work now which is stupid. Every character can just hold down and shield and get out of it, same with Fsmash (they could do that in 3.02 as well, just easier now). This completely kills fast faller MU's that aren't falcon imo.

I think since the Meta looks like it will be controled by spacies+Marth/shiek Diddy would be lucky to be high tier. **** that fox MU, it was horrible before, but now our combos dont actually start working on him till like, 60% because upsmash doesn't work as a move, and unless its FD or a large stage we can't tech chase him forever, 70/30 fox easy.

I really hope diddy players stick with the character, but if they dont like the new playstyle forced onto him I understand. It makes complete sense for a character with so many tools to win neutral multiple times to have to win neutral multiple times to take a stock. Most characters have similar balancing, and it'd be silly to ask to have for both fantastic neutral winning tools and stock taking tools without also already having a shine.

Also, why add the extra 3 frames of end lag onto Fair, just specifically so we can't Fair>DJ/waveland anymore qq. You already made it kill 20+%later, at least let it have fun interactions with bananas.

I'm over the nerfs mostly, but my god **** the upsmash changes

People are basically saying the same thing about Meta Knight. Sure, his down throw isn't that good for techchasing, he lost his old divekick, and he has less reliable finishers ( IDC and up b were nerfed ), but Meta Knight got so much better at gimping, it doesn't really matter. I'd argue Meta Knight is one of the best onstage edgeguarders in the game possibly outclassing Marth. He has options for too many situations and the difference is his new dair and better fair. Down throw may not be good for techcuases at low percents, but you followup with so many things. The old divekick was too good in practice for changing position and it wasn't very good for anything else. Frankly, IDC was pretty broken and players like GuruKid were using it as a >insert strong fast finisher here and the same goes for up b. The only nerf that was a little much was his recovery, but you just need to be a better button masher and better sweetspotter. Some people think he's boring, but to me he is a perfect combination of the Melee top tiers.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Ness's recovery is no where near bad lol.

+1

 

[leekslap]

A good Ganon is top tier at destroying scrubs IMO. I've played Marios, Falcos, and even Pits and I beat them all with grabs and my legs.

Olimar is **** in both 3.0 and 3.5 IMAO. The more deeply you think about him, the more you realize how bad his design is. I still think he's fun and I really like the pikmin buffs and that his antenna changes colors with the pikmin, but his good traits do not mitigate his bad recovery as much as Falco or even Falcon. I think using all Olimar has at his disposal regardless of playstyle and risk-reward (campy pivot grabs/pikmin throws or aggressive comboer ) when it's his best option is what you need to be good with Olimar. Along with fundementals and SHPTW ( short hop pikmin throw waveland ).

 

[Venom_909]

Lucario
is tooo stronk <3

 

[Deleted member]

i still think ganon sucks lmao

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah, ganon is ok, definitely not low tier. He still struggles in neutral vs fast characters with projectiles n' stuff. He's probably mid tier

 

[Chevy]

Ganondorf's recovery isn't really even bad anymore. Hover helps his recovery immensely. Still bottom half at least, but there's a lot of mix-up potential now. He can actually choose to recover high now, it helps his distance from any angle, and he can just up-b and choose whether or not to sweetspot, fadeback, etc.

 

[Spralwers]

Ganon still loses to camping, just not as hard as before. He does get much more out of his openings though. We'll see in due time if it's enough to offset his horrible neutral.

 

[Venom_909]

Whats your speculative Tier list guys ?

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

Ganon's recovery is legitimately decent now. It's insane to me, actually, after having played with his terrible recovery for so long.

That change alone places him at least at mid-tier in my opinion. He still has a **** neutral, but all of his buffs have helped to mitigate his weaknesses at least marginally. With the new design direction 3.5 has taken, Ganondorf is sitting pretty.

 

[jtm94]

Olimar had the dumbest damage output in 3.0. Now the white poison effects are applied at leaf now which is big to me. A few things shouldn't have been changed for sure, but think of it this way.... The character had no crazy means of going in, his movement isn't amazing, he had good(but slow) grabs that could be avoided, however, once he got in you died because all of his moves went into eachother with hitstun to spare and if you didn't die you are at 150%. This is broken design in multiple ways because 1. the character sucks 2. His moves require time investment and not getting hit to even work properly 3. the character KOs you if he can touch you 4. pikmin just fall off completely and he can't recover even when he should be able to. This makes him not only frustrating to play as, but frustrating to play against. He also has the most vague grab animations and I can't tell if I am grabbed of jabbed or what is even happening. If you want a character that punishes well play Ganon.

The entire character needed homogenized in some way so his moves are useful at leaf instead of useless and marginally better at flower instead of borderline broken. The way they changed the heights of upsmash/fsmash/grabs was completely non-intuitive and counter-productive to his design. The changes to make the knockback nearly the same from leaf to flower is a step in the right direction, but then they made the hitboxes function different for each type of pikmin which defeats the purpose of making him play, "more normal." Upsmash height could have just gotten lowered slightly so it wasn't 500% disjointed, did purple fsmash even need a nerf? And Purple grab didn't need a nerf period. The character should be able to be played similar no matter what pikmin he has, but at the same time should reward players for using the strengths of their pikmin. At this point it doesn't seem like pikmin are all equal and just better at one thing, it feels like they all suck and are only alright at one thing.

 

[trash?]

ganon's neutral really isn't even that bad for most characters anymore now that he can reflect things back, tbh. I really love his neutralb's design, it's not good enough to overcentralize but it's juuuust enough to where he can find his way around most zoning, albeit still kind of painfully

 

[SpiderMad]

The only nerf that was a little much was his recovery, but you just need to be a better button masher

hiss
http://smashboards.com/threads/mashing-the-game-mechanic.357987/

 

[Ripple]

did you guys know that ganon's neutral b actually float cancels

 

[CORY]

you mean the reflect animation? yeah, shell mentioned it in one of our threads.

 

[Hungry Headcrab]

ganon's neutral really isn't even that bad for most characters anymore now that he can reflect things back, tbh. I really love his neutralb's design, it's not good enough to overcentralize but it's juuuust enough to where he can find his way around most zoning, albeit still kind of painfully

Reflect means just about nothing to Ganon's neutral game if you're playing against an opponent with even a little bit of experience playing around reflectors.

It helps, obviously, but the move is just laggy enough to put Ganon in a worse position than where he began if used as part of an approach (assuming you're playing against a decently smart opponent). I like it when I'm recovering, since I can't powershield out there, but a smart opponent will be ready for it in neutral, mitigating it's usefulness on stage by quite a bit.

In short, lrn 2 pwrsheeld, scrubs.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

(you know every character that's not yoshi has a reflector)

 

[Anonistry]

Reflect means just about nothing to Ganon's neutral game if you're playing against an opponent with even a little bit of experience playing around reflectors.

It helps, obviously, but the move is just laggy enough to put Ganon in a worse position than where he began if used as part of an approach (assuming you're playing against a decently smart opponent). I like it when I'm recovering, since I can't powershield out there, but a smart opponent will be ready for it in neutral, mitigating it's usefulness on stage by quite a bit.

Honestly at this point, I think the biggest thing that will come from capeslap will be optimizing use of jab-resetting a flamechoke with no opposed tech attempt (and my secret hope that it will somehow turn into an effective and troll combo starter.) Seriously, between hover, powershield, and his interaction with some medium strength projectiles (i.e. wizkick clanking), reflector as a reflect will prove mostly suboptimal to useless.

It IS still quite swag, however. And getting off a jab reset and then following up feels good, man.

 

[9bit]

3.5 Tier List

Gah Tier


Bad Tier


Luigi Tier


Everyone Else Tier
Everyone Else

 

[leekslap]

3.5 Tier List

Gah Tier


Bad Tier


Luigi Tier


Everyone Else Tier
Everyone Else

Why do people think Samus is so good? Just curious even though I main her. But to be fair, I'm a scrub with her. Decided Falco took too much practice from my MK.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Just finished watching Bowser's Revenge 13.

WELP I GUESS ROB IS TOP TIER NOW

 

[DMG]

"This Robot is trained to fuc- WIN SMASH TOURNAMENTS!"

 

[Oracle]

Rob is *deep inhale*


BROOOKKKEEEEENNNNN

 

[Soft Serve]

ROB will be forever mid-tier in our hearts.

 

[SpiderMad]

Rob is *deep inhale*


BROOOKKKEEEEENNNNN

O_O

 

[GP&B]

What. What happened? Didn't he get slight nerfs?