Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

I'm tired of people saying "now you have to use your brain" like it isn't immensely insulting to consistently denounce both the intelligence and skills of other players

Yeah! A nicer way to say it would definitely be "You're bad, go away"
gets the point across well imo

 

[Scuba Steve]

is unusable now. Endlag on everything lol...Def low mid tier now.

I was waiting for this post. Glad to see you didn't disappoint

 

[mimgrim]

I should probably point out that the the whole "now you have to think" thing in my post was more about how in 3.02 with Mewtwo was Teleport Hover Nair was such a good approach option that you didn't really need to use anything else. That isn't the case anymore. Hover Nair still stupid good but now is more streamlined with the change to TeleHover now which doesn't make it his single best approach option and now has to chose what kind of way to approach is.

 

[Seagull Joe]

I was waiting for this post. Glad to see you didn't disappoint

I mean...I'm sure Luck will say the same thing.

I'm tired of people saying "now you have to use your brain" like it isn't immensely insulting to consistently denounce both the intelligence and skills of other players

Agreed. Stupid people don't suddenly start doing well when they pick up a top tier in other games. Pretty sure the metagame will divulge into just // laser/needle camping, nair planing (), and usmash'ing ().

I should probably point out that the the whole "now you have to think" thing in my post was more about how in 3.02 with Mewtwo was Teleport Hover Nair was such a good approach option that you didn't really need to use anything else. That isn't the case anymore. Hover Nair still stupid good but now is more streamlined with the change to TeleHover now which doesn't make it his single best approach option and now has to chose what kind of way to approach is.

People still had to think to use the character. just was the character with the most options at most scenarios. Saying "Now you have to think" is really undermining and makes you sound pompous.

 

[mimgrim]

That's not what I meant. e_e

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

I think Ness players just want something extra to make their neutral game less balls. We've been clamoring for any one of the following since 2.5--

1. A slightly faster dash
2. A Magnet that starts sooner than frame 8 and potentially does more hitstun/damage than 4%
3. a slightly bigger grab range (not such a bad change considering now we get less grabs and they count for less)
4. Slightly more momentum transfer from a dash/jump into a magnet
5. a 1 or 2% increase on bair's damage so its hit/shieldstun grants you more reliable ways to dash away from a shield grab after you djc bair their shield. I have to do some testing, but I remember it being more consistent in Melee as a safe on shield option. That may be due to the better grab range across the cast, or it could be something else.

Currently, Ness has the third grab range in the game. Only two characters with a worse grab range are Pikachu and Sonic, and the character with slightly better grab range than him is Captain Falcon. Bottom five grab range I think is as follows
1. Mario
2. Cfalcon
3. Ness
4. Pikachu
5. Sonic

Mario can fireball to force shield and react with grabs, while falcon/pika/sonic have speed. Luckily, the buff to perfect wavelanding helps Ness unlock some movement potential that people like me didn't expect...but I still think its a bit weak.

You say that like I haven't been around since waaaaaaayyyyy before 2.5. xD;

I'm not actually convinced he loses neutral that hard to most characters. I mean, Marth and Fox sort of tear him up, but those have always been rough match ups. With the engine changes in 3.5, I think Ness is overall quite a bit stronger than he was in 3.02, and that's all I really want so far. The game is less than 6 days old, we've got a lot of stuff to discover. It's possible that he may need help down the line, but we simply don't know enough yet.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Get over it.

You keep on complaining about the exact same thing and it is really tiring.

M2 was filled with all kinds of questionable design in 3.02. He needed changes done to him. Hover Nair is still a stupid good approach, you just can't combine it with Teleport to make it even more stupid. Like now you have to think about how to approach, do I use Hover or Teleport to approach this player? Instead of going, lol I'll just do both. God forbid you have to actually user your brain.

Ok ok ok. I see the point of telehover being dumb good, (Kinda hate to pull the spacies card) but so is shine? Its a 1 frame combo extending movement option and gimping tool that has no risk to it other than "I MIGHT MISS. OH NO. GUESS I'LL WAVEDASH, GRAB, JUMP, OR UPSMASH OUT OF IT. BOOHOO." Hover is extremely unsafe. Even out of teleport. Always was. Stupid easy to stop, and I wasnt really complaining much about it. My issue isnt losing telehover, but what can decently replace it. Hover nair is dumb easy to shut down. Theres this amazing move called Falco's neutral b? Heard of it? Pretty chill move.

I think I broke my best option down to DJC Nair, which isn't exactly the easiest to pull of consistently with mewtwo as an approach. In place easy as ****, but movement, not fun. Say what you want, but we aren't exactly all Taj with that ****.

Besides, I said non teleport related nerfs, besides losing acting out of up b upon using double jump. Such as a nerfs on shadow ball. Smaller size, and slower cancelling to be specific on that realm. Plus mewtwo still has some sort of telehover and god damn is it a good OoS option if done right. Ledge cancelled grounded up b's are a gift.

'Least I'm not dropping the guy. *cough*pikachumains*cough*

And for the love of god, if you went and threw telehovered nair into say, Fox's Upsmash for example in 3.02, you were going to be punished for it, via getting Up smashed, or getting hit before you can hit them. Not like you could just throw it out all willy nilly and get away with it while sitting there with your thumb planted firmly up your ass. There was some thought process to it. "Oh he's retreating what a *****. NB to force him into shield, telehover nair for pressure. Should I move towards the stage to keep him at bay to get more damage or push off to maybe get a gimp? Which way is he SDI'ing? Should I follow up with a NB? Should I retreat and bait an approach to get a grab off afterwards or go for a grab now?" Now its "well **** he got away. ****. Oh Holy Ghost let me get another grab. Amen."

EDIT: I saw you refering to not needing to use anything else. I get that. I honestly used it 50% of the time. Other half was WD to Disable. **** was fun. No one really was ready for that because all mewtwos would use telehover nair. Still a piss approach. All you had to do was literally walk away and you avoided it. Dont get why people couldn't grasp that.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Telefloat was broken
What the hell are you even throwing walls for
Why are people like ok that option was dumb
But isn't shine dumb why I gotta NAH SHADDUP

 

[~Dad~]

Diddy confirmed literally, completely unusable because Joe didn't get top 3 at Xanadu right after a new patch lmfao I love the internet.

 

[Jacob29]

is unusable now. Endlag on everything lol...Def low mid tier now.

Good.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Telefloat was broken
What the hell are you even throwing walls for
Why are people like ok that option was dumb
But isn't shine dumb why I gotta NAH SHADDUP

I didnt want to pull the shine card. I really didnt. Not like its completely untrue.

Eh I cant really complain about shine much. ****s beautiful. Falco's fun.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Soooo...

-Diddy is mid tier, which also means he's unusable
-#NessNeedsBuffs
-Mewtwo telefloat needs a compensatory buff in exchange for its removal.
-The characters who were good in Melee are broken, even with all their nerfs.

Well, I certainly learned some **** today.

 

[menotyou135]

Difference between shine and tele-nair is that tele-nair is easier than multishing, you don't have to get close to use it, it does 16% damage as opposed to 5%, you aren't required to combo it into anything for it to be good like shine (but you can), once you've done it you don't have to do anything else like you do with shine jump canceling into a WD or SH arial, the hitbox stays out for hours so it is almost impossible to miss with, it wrecks any character without a projectile (you essentially said it isn't good because Falco has an option against it), and it is one of the largest persistent hitboxes in the entire game, meaning you don't even have to be accurate with it.

Not saying shine isn't kinda dumb at times, but tele-nair was "incredibly stupid" as opposed to just "kinda dumb"

 

[GP&B]

The 3.5 salt is unbearably strong.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here all:

hey, Ike's a pretty cool guy

 

[DARKcpu0]

I was using falco as an example of characters with projectiles, while is alot of the roster, like alittle over half perhaps? Good chunk nonetheless, can really easily shut it down. Besides, throw in characters with "shoryukens" moves that cover alot of range and disjoints, pretty much everyone has an option to stop telehover. Except maybe ganondorf? Hell Ice Climbers can **** on telefloat from desync jump down b then get a grab.

 

[DARKcpu0]

The 3.5 salt is unbearably strong.

Meanwhile, I'm sitting here all:

hey, Ike's a pretty cool guy

I like Ike.

You like Ike.

We like Ike.

We like Ike.

We like Ike.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

I was using falco as an example of characters with projectiles, while is alot of the roster, like alittle over half perhaps? Good chunk nonetheless, can really easily shut it down. Besides, throw in characters with "shoryukens" moves that cover alot of range and disjoints, pretty much everyone has an option to stop telehover. Except maybe ganondorf? Hell Ice Climbers can **** on telefloat from desync jump down b then get a grab.

Except if you're smart and use a shadowball to cover your approach, then not many things could shut it down. But let's ignore that so we can pretend like telehover wasn't the best (one of the best?) approach in the game and cry about mewtwo nerfs.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Except if you're smart and use a shadowball to cover your approach, then not many things could shut it down. But let's ignore that so we can pretend like telehover wasn't the best (one of the best?) approach in the game and cry about mewtwo nerfs.

Or we can talk about ike? Eh?

I down for Ike.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

A lot of people are really frustrated about some nerfs. Just glad I haven't put a massive amount of time into Pikachu or another character who was nerfed. Personally, I think the QAC nerf was silly and not that well thought out, since 1 burst is almost useless. As for how to "fix it". I think no hitbox is an interesting idea. Loses some utility, but really anything is better then the current interation. I don't like a slowing down of the speed of QAC though. Honestly, I think it was a smart mixup tool. It didn't really have the power to be used a mindless approach. It also didn't combo like spin dashes either. I think its comparison to Peach's Float is spot on. Overall, sad change, just gonna drop him from my list of potential mains.

 

[reptiloidjeanspisser]

disregard.

 

[Ripple]

is unusable now. Endlag on everything lol...Def low mid tier now.

does this mean you forfeit our $200 MM?

cuz...I'm still playing DDD....and he's still the same

 

[SpiderMad]

It just means you pop in that 3.0

or otherwise Seagull will use his new 3.5 character, Rob

 

[Frost | Odds]

do you not consider using projectiles to be interacting with your opponent

Mostly I consider it interacting with your B button

 

[Bleck]

so what you're saying here is that projectiles are inherently anti-competitive, and being able to deal with them is a skill that should not be considered essential to playing the game

 

[PsionicSabreur]

It's probably more akin to what you've said about edgehogging in the past. It makes the game less interesting to watch because there's no reason for it to be played dangerously when you could just not do much and get the same reward (if I'm understanding both your side and theirs correctly).

 

[DARKcpu0]

Mostly I consider it interacting with your B button

I laughed at this much more than I should have.

 

[mimgrim]

Ok ok ok. I see the point of telehover being dumb good, (Kinda hate to pull the spacies card) but so is shine? Its a 1 frame combo extending movement option and gimping tool that has no risk to it other than "I MIGHT MISS. OH NO. GUESS I'LL WAVEDASH, GRAB, JUMP, OR UPSMASH OUT OF IT. BOOHOO." Hover is extremely unsafe. Even out of teleport. Always was. Stupid easy to stop, and I wasnt really complaining much about it. My issue isnt losing telehover, but what can decently replace it. Hover nair is dumb easy to shut down. Theres this amazing move called Falco's neutral b? Heard of it? Pretty chill move.

I think I broke my best option down to DJC Nair, which isn't exactly the easiest to pull of consistently with mewtwo as an approach. In place easy as ****, but movement, not fun. Say what you want, but we aren't exactly all Taj with that ****.

Besides, I said non teleport related nerfs, besides losing acting out of up b upon using double jump. Such as a nerfs on shadow ball. Smaller size, and slower cancelling to be specific on that realm. Plus mewtwo still has some sort of telehover and god damn is it a good OoS option if done right. Ledge cancelled grounded up b's are a gift.

'Least I'm not dropping the guy. *cough*pikachumains*cough*

And for the love of god, if you went and threw telehovered nair into say, Fox's Upsmash for example in 3.02, you were going to be punished for it, via getting Up smashed, or getting hit before you can hit them. Not like you could just throw it out all willy nilly and get away with it while sitting there with your thumb planted firmly up your ***. There was some thought process to it. "Oh he's retreating what a *****. NB to force him into shield, telehover nair for pressure. Should I move towards the stage to keep him at bay to get more damage or push off to maybe get a gimp? Which way is he SDI'ing? Should I follow up with a NB? Should I retreat and bait an approach to get a grab off afterwards or go for a grab now?" Now its "well **** he got away. ****. Oh Holy Ghost let me get another grab. Amen."

EDIT: I saw you refering to not needing to use anything else. I get that. I honestly used it 50% of the time. Other half was WD to Disable. **** was fun. No one really was ready for that because all mewtwos would use telehover nair. Still a piss approach. All you had to do was literally walk away and you avoided it. Dont get why people couldn't grasp that.

Shine is stupid design. Period. A frame 1 move that covers a characters whole body, that's just plain bad design that should be changed. Not that it ever will, because holy crap would there be an uproar.

I would ****ing love it if shine became like a frame 3 or 4 move instead.

But it will never ****ing happen.

And yea. I wasn't trying to say that TeleHover Nair didn't take thought process. I meant that there was generally never a reason you would not want to use that combination to approach, now he his forced to use other ways to approach then just one option and has to think about which one he wants to use. My bad and not stating what I meant clearly.

Difference between shine and tele-nair is that tele-nair is easier than multishing, you don't have to get close to use it, it does 16% damage as opposed to 5%, you aren't required to combo it into anything for it to be good like shine (but you can), once you've done it you don't have to do anything else like you do with shine jump canceling into a WD or SH arial, the hitbox stays out for hours so it is almost impossible to miss with, it wrecks any character without a projectile (you essentially said it isn't good because Falco has an option against it), and it is one of the largest persistent hitboxes in the entire game, meaning you don't even have to be accurate with it.

Not saying shine isn't kinda dumb at times, but tele-nair was "incredibly stupid" as opposed to just "kinda dumb"

As someone who can't even Multishine, I disagree with this. How hard a tech is should have no bearing on it being stupid design or not. Because at top level play it is assumed you have all of this **** mastered. When Multishining is mastered it's hella dumb.

 

[SpiderMad]

It's probably more akin to what you've said about edgehogging in the past. It makes the game less interesting to watch because there's no reason for it to be played dangerously when you could just not do much and get the same reward (if I'm understanding both your side and theirs correctly).

Watching dozens of hours of Mango analysis has further opened my eyes to the deepness that is Melee

 

[Paradoxium]

Watching dozens of hours of Mango analysis has further opened my eyes to the deepness that is Melee

Like when you really start to observe mango's play you see just how good he really is

Like he could nair shine or multi shine if he wanted to, but instead he waits and spaces his shffls and kind of coaxes you out of your shield.

And then you see your typical fox players who are just laser laser laser nair into shine laser laser laser upsmash

 

[GP&B]

Watching dozens of hours of Mango analysis has further opened my eyes to the deepness that is Melee

Genuinely curious about this and would love some links to vids of said analysis. Watching Axe analyze his 4-stock match vs SilentWolf was awe-inspiring for just how much decision making and thought process happens within a mere second or two.

 

[SpiderMad]

He does and talks about lots of stuff, that's why I downloaded everything and put them into 3 Youtube playlists
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7wGkq-0RxS3NR6tMouIolPK
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x44zkyz2mjoKc1Ok9_Eqt6
Since then (I did this when I was scared Twitch was gonna delete stuff) he's got a couple or so more analysis he's done on his Twitch

Some of these he actually is missing I think, for whatever reason. So lucky I saved them.

 

[Bleck]

It's probably more akin to what you've said about edgehogging in the past. It makes the game less interesting to watch because there's no reason for it to be played dangerously when you could just not do much and get the same reward (if I'm understanding both your side and theirs correctly).

You don't think characters powershielding, reflecting or absorbing projectiles is an interesting thing to see in a match?

Again, I don't think PK Fire should have kept the on-shield hit, I think that change was definitely warranted. What I'm taking issue with, here, is the idea that a) using projectiles and b) dealing with a player using projectiles are "not playing the game", or not skills that are "fundamental".

This is a community that supposedly values depth above all else when it comes to design - but these statements don't mesh with that.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Those are fundamental skills and an important part of the game, but they are also irrelevant to the discussion of why 3.02 PK Fire was broken.

 

[Bleck]

The discussion that I've been a part of has never been about whether or not the move was broken. I've made it frustratingly clear that I agree that PK Fire was broken, as people who have actually been reading the entirety of posts may well be aware.

 

[Kidneyjoe]

Yeah I get that, but why do you keep going on with the whole "I guess dealing with projectiles isn't fundamentals." strawman? Like, what point are you even trying to get across?

 

[CyberZixx]

Here what what many players when in regards to fundimentals. This video is talking about a different type of game but I feel it still applies. Starts at 14 minutes in.

 

[Frost | Odds]

so what you're saying here is that projectiles are inherently anti-competitive, and being able to deal with them is a skill that should not be considered essential to playing the game

Not at all - I love projectiles, and they add much-needed spice to the game. The trouble with projectiles when they're overpowered compared to other options, is that they, like I said, tend to dramatically reduce the amount that you actually interact with your opponent. 3.0 Link was an excellent example: his optimal choice in goddamn near every situation was "throw a boomerang". If that was unavailable, his next choice was necessarily to "run away".

Compounding this problem is the fact that projectiles, the way they existed in 3.02, tend to highly polarize the matchups of their users. Projectiles tend to kinda suck against fast/aggro and/or characters with tools like reflectors (see: Fox, Falco, Mario, Mewtwo) while simultaneously making life total hell for slow characters (especially ones without projectiles of their own) based on zoning and forcing approaches from the opponent.

"Walling" gameplay can be fun and interactive for both players, but not the way it was implemented prior. I have much higher hopes for this version, and am pretty tempted to pick up Zelda and/or Mewtwo.

 

[Bleck]

strawman

I have a rule where I don't waste time arguing with anybody who says this

Not at all - I love projectiles, and they add much-needed spice to the game. The trouble with projectiles when they're overpowered compared to other options, is that they, like I said, tend to dramatically reduce the amount that you actually interact with your opponent. 3.0 Link was an excellent example: his optimal choice in goddamn near every situation was "throw a boomerang". If that was unavailable, his next choice was necessarily to "run away".

Compounding this problem is the fact that projectiles, the way they existed in 3.02, tend to highly polarize the matchups of their users. Projectiles tend to kinda suck against fast/aggro and/or characters with tools like reflectors (see: Fox, Falco, Mario, Mewtwo) while simultaneously making life total hell for slow characters (especially ones without projectiles of their own) based on zoning and forcing approaches from the opponent.

"Walling" gameplay can be fun and interactive for both players, but not the way it was implemented prior. I have much higher hopes for this version, and am pretty tempted to pick up Zelda and/or Mewtwo.

This is a reasonable stance, that I agree with.

 

[Phan7om]

He does and talks about lots of stuff, that's why I downloaded everything and put them into 3 Youtube playlists
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7wGkq-0RxS3NR6tMouIolPK
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x44zkyz2mjoKc1Ok9_Eqt6
Since then (I did this when I was scared Twitch was gonna delete stuff) he's got a couple or so more analysis he's done on his Twitch

Some of these he actually is missing I think, for whatever reason. So lucky I saved them.

Im starting to think you have just a whole labratory stored with info, leaking it out little by little which each post or video lol.

 

[GP&B]

He does and talks about lots of stuff, that's why I downloaded everything and put them into 3 Youtube playlists
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7wGkq-0RxS3NR6tMouIolPK
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x26W4D8ejP6vWrCOdPr8s1
https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLovBMkMLex7x44zkyz2mjoKc1Ok9_Eqt6
Since then (I did this when I was scared Twitch was gonna delete stuff) he's got a couple or so more analysis he's done on his Twitch

Some of these he actually is missing I think, for whatever reason. So lucky I saved them.

Oh wow, saved all of them and defs gonna watch in spare time.