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Juushichi
Thanks for the reply. I agree with the reduction in burst movement's effectiveness as a design goal for 3.5. That was certainly one of the major issues of 3.02, even on some of the mid or low tier characters.
However, I feel that the decisions made for QAC were without a complete understanding their implications. The impression given is that they were made without first-hand insight into how Pikachu plays, why he is played, what QAC is/can do, how it fits into his game, and how it can be stopped. Rather, it seems as if QAC were only analyzed in the broadest terms, with reference to its intelligent use by top-level players against those unfamiliar with it, and to its abilities in an unrushed, unthreatened laboratory setting.
Consequently, the change made appears to be a good-faith attempt at compromise, yet which has inadvertently eliminated QAC's relevance - along with it a pivotal component of the character - rather than simply weakening it.
I've done some work to elucidate Quick Attack as a move. There may be some fencepost errors on the frame data, and I estimated the distances, but it should be fairly accurate.
(BTW, thank you sooo much to the DT for Debug Mode. This completely redefines the way I play.)
Zip 1:
Direction read on frame 12. This is when Pikachu must decide where to go, and if he shall sacrifice total distance for a potential 1st-zip QAC.
Hitbox active on frame 13.
Movement begins on frame 14.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls at frame 18. At this point, Pikachu has traveled a maximum of 6.5 of the Training Stage's units horizontally, assuming he QA'ed perfectly horizontal, which rules out QAC for this zip. The max that still allows QAC is 6 units, but Pikachu drifts 1 unit during the QAC window, so any actual QAC occurs between 5 and 6 units.
QAC window is frames 20-24. If Pikachu zipped into the ground, now is when he must decide if he shall cancel, with what, and execute it.
If Pikachu neither QAC's nor zips again, his first actionable frame is 56 if he zipped into the ground, or 61 if he zipped horizontally.
Zip 2:
Direction read on frame 26. This is when Pikachu must decide if he shall do the 2nd zip and where to go. If he does the 2nd zip, this is also when the hitbox activates. The 2nd zip must differ from the first by at least 38°.
Movement begins frame 27.
Hitbox removed and movement stalls frame 31. The max horizontal distance for this zip is 6 units, and between both zips is 10.5 units.
I believe the QAC window for the 2nd zip would be frames 33-36.
With no QAC, Pikachu's first actionable frame is 70, regardless of angle.
QA must travel
into the ground during a zip's movement, and end over that ground, in order to be cancelled at the end of that zip.
QA can be cancelled into any aerial option. This comprises double jump, airdodge (hence waveland), nearly-grounded specials or aerials (Fair has no hitbox but autocancels, Dair goes straight to landing hitbox), and of course double-jump.
But remember, these are
Pikachu's options, not some Ike careening toward you with a screen-wide Fair of certain death, but a disjointless lightweight renowned for low damage output and expected to be bouncing every which way regardless.
Double jumping out of QA provides Pikachu with a peak height at frame 25 of 3.5 units, with a maximum of 2.5 units horizontally. From here, Pikachu can land on frame 55 for 4.5 units distance, or fastfall to land frame 43 with 3.5 units.
Don't let the word "hitbox" fool you, this isn't Sonic we're talking about.
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The 1st zip deal 3%, has 4 frames of hitlag (which stops Pikachu as well, giving the opponent more time to react, plus messes with the timing), 7 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 3, 13, and 21 frames hitstun against a 0% Bowser, 100% Marth, and 200% Jigglypuff, respectively.
The 2nd zip deal 2%, has 3 frames of hitlag, 6 frames shieldstun, negligible knockback at any percent, and 1, 10, and 18 frames hitstun.
Honestly, the hit more often seems troublesome then helpful when QAC'ing, as it frees the opponent from any lag they may be experiencing.
QA gives no invincibility.
For comparison, it takes Captain Falcon 45 frames to run 10.5 units. The first 15 frames (over 3 units) are his initial dash and can be cancelled into a dash the other way or turned into a moonwalk, and after that he can cancel with crouch (into any action out of idle, including dash dance forward then back again) or RAR. At any point throughout he can short hop (or full hop if the opponent jumps) into a Knee, Stomp, his long-range Nair or Uair, crossup Bair, or keep it empty and quickly land, or retreat with his double jump, or edge cancel a Falcon Kick if available. Or he can Raptor Boost, wavedash, use a real dash attack, DACUS, or shield which can go into roll forward, roll backwards, sidestep, or grab. Note that Pikachu is one of the few characters with a grab comparable to Falcon's.
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At any point, as soon as he wants. Most characters can, actually.
Pikachu can run 10.5 units in 53 frames, with a 13 frame, 2.5 unit initial dash.
There are some places QAC could be trimmed. Make failing a QAC be as laggy as QA horizontal, or especially make it so that Pikachu loses his double jump if hit out of QA at any point before officially touching the ground. Those make sense to me.
I think that just making it so that QAC was lost by going into tumble would have been the perfect change, especially if Pikachu had to actually land to get it back, so he couldn't just sweetspot the ledge then QAC onstage. Straight-up once per airtime, or adding a cool down, would be too restrictive, precluding consecutive QAC's, which I've seen Anther use for shield pressure, and which I personally just loved doing between stocks.
But for an even more conservative version that lets QAC remain pertinent and preserves everything that's great about it, while cutting out anything that could be regarded as not-so-great, consider if also QAC only allowed double jump. In this scenario, the strongest options of low aerial/special would be impossible, while the now-strongest option of wavelanding would be more technically demanding, with a greater opportunity for a wider range of errors, and anything but perfection would be slower, allowing a greater opportunity for the opponent to punish in a way which eliminates Pikachu's double jump
and QAC.
Zipping about the stage has become a staple of PM Pikachu. How would Luigis react if he couldn't slide about the stage? Or Jiggses if she couldn't drift about the stage? It would continue to not be a problem if it were even more dangerous.
Pikachu needs ways to close space. His range is his body, if he can't get in then he can't do anything. And as I hope I have illustrated, QAC is really not too foreign of a space-closer.
If we're talking about when Pikachu's on defense, QAC
was too good, hence my obsession with the tumble thing. But if we're talking about in neutral, I can't say agree. QAC could really only provide a good position if the opponent let it. Pikachu is completely vulnerable throughout QA, it can be stopped by the same things as everything else Pikachu has (a wide sweeping hitbox, or a jab), and usage requires telegraphing your intentions by moving into a position where it's possible. Not only that, but QAC was a risk/reward thing (that could simply have more risk, if the reward is still deemed to great, by way of guaranteed loss of DJ and QAC), where your options were either try to charge right through your opponent, or pass through an even more compromising position, and setting up for these were usually mutually exclusive actions. (Not to mention the risk of failing the execution) The only excuses for letting Pika by were being outplayed, or not knowing the matchup (which should not take more than a few matches for good players. And learning new matchups is one of PM's most evident, enjoyable draws - I know I felt fantastic when I started knowing when G&W had no jump).
From my point of view, despite the DT's intentions, the current version sacrifices depth and entertainment (for all parties, honestly) in order to make Pikachu a neverused lower-mid tier rather than underused upper-mid tier. I don't think that's worth it, especially when there are great other options
.
Tagxy
, do you think you would hate my suggestion more, or the current 3.5 version, if you had to choose?
. This is one of the reasons debug exists, so many people with wrong data :/.
