Tier List Speculation

[Deleted member]

bleck i mostly like the points youre trying to make but getting someone to explain fundamentals is a semantics trap at best and youre not stupid enough to not know youre doing it

old pk fire was stupid and needed to go. oh you have to actually play smash now, tragic. why is this even a discussion

 

[Boiko]

old pk fire was stupid and needed to go. oh you have to actually play smash now, tragic. why is this even a discussion

This is basically what I was getting at, but citing a few more examples as well.

 

[The_NZA]

little interactions that are kinda dumb: when fox usmashes lucas' shield, the shield pushback is enough to push lucas out of grab range. Fox basically has a punish-free fmash, because in the time it takes lucas to get back to fox, fox can just shine or usmash again.

I mean lucas can reset to neutral, wavedash oos away and fire some pk freezies but idk the fact that fox has an upsmash that either resets to neutral or kills you is kinda annoying

Or maybe I'm just bad at playing

This is true even with Shield DI towards the fox?

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

This is true even with Shield DI towards the fox?

Shield di towards, wd oos shield, and then punish. Even without shield di Im pretty sure his wavedash is far enough to reach Fox.

 

[The_NZA]

Hey guys, you know what would be great. If we had a tier list discussion thread where we assess character strength, and we shut down conversations on characters by saying "He just has to play the game now cause he never played the game". That would be swell.

I think the argument of "what fundamentals are you talking about" is perfectly valid. Fact: Many of the top Ness players are fundamentally strong and never really relied on PKfire. Hell, I've never really relied on PKFire. But I know the threat it created and why it was integral to making a low tier character into a mid tier.

Do I think it was well designed? Hell No. But it was still important on a character with average dash speed, terrible range, a slow fast fall, no space control or projectile, and awful grab range. I agree that htere is room for Ness players to improve, but DJC doesn't make up for being awful in these core attributes. Yes, there are subtle things Ness can do to win the neutral that I will strive to improve on, but ultimately hes not going to win neutral very often and will have to perfectly punish to keep even. That's honestly fine unless he plays an opponent with a vastly superior neutral game (fox/Marth), or somebody who escapes his strong punish/combo game (GnW, some floaties).

That's where the polarized character design argument comes in.

 

[Deleted member]

you know theres still 40 other characters if you dont like yours

 

[~Dad~]

Wait are you telling me some of you still haven't switched to fox?

 

[The_NZA]

you know theres still 40 other characters if you dont like yours

That's not why I play PM. Sometimes it's not just about winning. It's about winning with your character.

If I really wanted to use your logic and use a character I don't like, I might as well just play Melee and use a character I don't like in an ultimately still minutely tighter feeling game.

 

[Deleted member]

winning whatever in the game and then ******** about your character choice on the internet isn't exactly winning. being frustrated with a game that's supposed to be fun because you mentally pigeon-holed yourself is most certainly the worst loss the franchise offers.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Shield di towards, wd oos shield, and then punish. Even without shield di Im pretty sure his wavedash is far enough to reach Fox.

I man you can reach him but the issue is that he has a shine he can immediately throw out

but I didn't sheild di towards which is probably my issue

 

[Strong Badam]

winning whatever in the game and then *****ing about your character choice on the internet isn't exactly winning. being frustrated with a game that's supposed to be fun because you mentally pigeon-holed yourself is most certainly the worst loss the franchise offers.

i know this feel

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Am I like the only Ness main who thinks this character got better?

 

[The_NZA]

i know this feel

I honestly don't know what you guys are talking about...are you saying I can't focus on winning and also critique the balance of Project M and my character? Like, I have to pick one or the other? Are you arguing that the goal of the game isn't to be able to win a tournament with any character? Because My impression was that the game aimed (idealistically so but still aimed) at eliminating 7-3 and worse matchups. That a 6-4 or a 65-35 matchup was bad but still doable.

Mango can just use Fox if he wants, and Armada can just use Peach. Dr. PP can get away with just falco. Why is it too much to ask for PM to aim to be designed well enough that Ness can have a healthy spread of even matchups, some good, and some bad?

Also...I don't see what I'm doing as "petty complaining". I thought I was just discussing balance for a game with a recent patch that admittedly played with a lot of variables that may have had balance implications that even developers on said product have admitted they do not fully understand nor can they predict. You see this as a me v. developers thing, while I think we are on this journey together...

 

[Strong Badam]

Lol I was referring to playing DK in Melee competitively for 5 years. No comment on the rest of this conversation.

 

[Boiko]

Am I like the only Ness main who thinks this character got better?

NOPE.

 

[Bleck]

bleck i mostly like the points youre trying to make but getting someone to explain fundamentals is a semantics trap at best and youre not stupid enough to not know youre doing it

yeah see my point was that actual fundamental skills like uh jumping or rolling or wavedashing or SDI or tilting your shield or teching or reading your opponent are all things that were pretty effective at neutralizing the threat of PK Fire

but apparently when people use the word "fundamentals" they're talking about something completely different than fundamental skills so I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me what "fundamentals" are

old pk fire was stupid and needed to go. oh you have to actually play smash now, tragic. why is this even a discussion

see like the way you're putting this - "you actually have to play smash now" - implies that all of the things that I just said above are things that are not only not important to playing smash bros but should not be and I find that at least a little bit confusing

 

[Professor Pro]

Wait are you telling me some of you still haven't switched to fox?

I haven't switched to Fox

 

[~Dad~]

I haven't switched to Fox

That's because you are a fox.

 

[Professor Pro]

That's because you are a fox.

I play Snake, and have no intention of switching any time soon

I find it weird that some people are confused what to do in neutral without 3.02 PK Fire and feel limited.

Welcome to a normal neutral game.

 

[Player -0]

Don't you chuck nades as Snake ._.?

Does Lucas run faster than Ness..?

 

[Professor Pro]

Don't you chuck nades as Snake ._.?

Yes, Snake can throw grenades lol ....is this a question which wanted a type of answer?

 

[FlamingForce]

I find it weird that some people are confused what to do in neutral without 3.02 PK Fire and feel limited.

It'd be much appreciated if you could silence NZA's worries then and explain what he's doing wrong and what his unexplored options are.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Wait, are you telling me some of you still haven't switched to Ganon?

Fixed. Your grammar was atrocious.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Why would I switch to Ganon? People keep asking for PMDT to give Ganon a sword without realizing that SwaordGanon already exists in this game and is amazing.

... also I secondary Ganon

 

[OidBirdie]

Sure, ness has to 'play' the game now. The problem is his tools in neutral are underwelming when compared to most. He is characterized by a strong punish game. We all know that that is pretty much a pseudonym for a character that sucks. Just saiyan. Of course he isn't awful though.

 

[Boiko]

Sure, ness has to 'play' the game now. The problem is his tools in neutral are underwelming when compared to most. He is characterized by a strong punish game. We all know that that is pretty much a pseudonym for a character that sucks. Just saiyan. Of course he isn't awful though.

Melee Marth.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Mango can just use Fox if he wants, and Armada can just use Peach. Dr. PP can get away with just falco. Why is it too much to ask for PM to aim to be designed well enough that Ness can have a healthy spread of even matchups, some good, and some bad?

You're saying this as if Mango and PPMD just really liked Fox and Falco and got lucky with their matchup spreads. Whereas really they chose their characters because they felt they were the best - best overall or just for them personally, it doesn't matter, their choice on the CSS is just as much of a gameplay decision (with the goal of winning) as anything they do in the match.

I'm not disagreeing with your overall complaint about polarization, I guess, but you have to realize that you can't always just play the character you think looks the coolest in a fighting game and expect to be able to win. It's not realistic. Even Armada isn't taking first at many big tournaments anymore.

 

[Rizner]

no, it wasn't fine for PK fire because ness the character wasn't doing shield pressure for 100 frames. it was a pillar of fire that allowed ness to move freely about and do what he pleased. the same with razor leaf. even IF people SDI out of the fire pillar pressure, there is still a pillar of flames right in front of you that ness can just run through and you can't do anything about except jump because another PK fire tha ness would throw out would mean he gets a free grab or insane stage positioning with flames still being there.

Ahh, ok. Gotcha

 

[OidBirdie]

Massive grab range. Good DD help melee marth get the punish.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Melee Marth.

Did you just insinuate that melee Marth has a weak neutral

is this a comedy routine

 

[_Chrome]

Frankly I expect the next update to be a buffpatch and for Ness to be somewhere on that list.

I mean keep the positivity Ness mains, but I do feel y'all need some more tools.

What kind of tools do you think we need? I feel like Ness is a pretty solid character with the good throws, the sweet aerials, and the recovery. Even if PK Fire doesn't activate on shields, it still applies great pressure and if you're accurate with it then you're fine. Less gimmicky in my opinion, and let's be honest: who actually wants to play as a character made of gimmicks?

TLDR; What do you think we need, I feel like your suggestions could agree with mine.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I'm not disagreeing with your overall complaint about polarization, I guess, but you have to realize that you can't always just play the character you think looks the coolest in a fighting game and expect to be able to win..

... why do people keep forgetting cast-wide balance is an explicit PM goal?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

... why do people keep forgetting cast-wide balance is an explicit PM goal?

we're not forgetting, we just know it's hilarious that anybody thinks that degree of balance is possible in a 40+ character game.

the only game that comes close is like KoF 13 and in that game everything is much more normalized across the cast, it would be like if smash bros was like two original characters and tons of clones - balance is more feasible with standardized toolsets. But Smash has always been about/the community insists on character variety and uniqueness. Good luck balancing that across an entire cast.

 

[Professor Pro]

It'd be much appreciated if you could silence NZA's worries then and explain what he's doing wrong and what his unexplored options are.

I just watched a match of Bees! vs NZA and I felt like he was putting himself in silly situations in neutral by spamming what he felt would be safe like DJC stuff and getting punished continuously or not taking advantage of many openings I saw because he was too busy doing DJC stuff.. I find it weird that he wouldn't utilize Dash Attack in neutral since it's one of Ness's decent pokes, I'm a player who firmly believes in utilizing and becoming comfortable with all of your characters tools.
No offence (and this is me being honest) when I watch Ness played like that I find it easy to understand why people would complain about his neutral game, because the Ness gameplay I saw in neutral, punish games and decision making wasn't that great.

Sure, ness has to 'play' the game now. The problem is his tools in neutral are underwelming when compared to most. He is characterized by a strong punish game. We all know that that is pretty much a pseudonym for a character that sucks. Just saiyan. Of course he isn't awful though.

Pretty much the exact same could be said about Snake.
My response, 'No Johns'

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

What kind of tools do you think we need? I feel like Ness is a pretty solid character with the good throws, the sweet aerials, and the recovery. Even if PK Fire doesn't activate on shields, it still applies great pressure and if you're accurate with it then you're fine. Less gimmicky in my opinion, and let's be honest: who actually wants to play as a character made of gimmicks?

TLDR; What do you think we need, I feel like your suggestions could agree with mine.

I have no idea.

Like lol every character I play is based on disjoints, positional advantage and spacing? I look at Ness' stubby limbs and lacki of reach, go NOPE and quit out.

I only pretend to know everything about everything lol

 

[Bleck]

... why do people keep forgetting cast-wide balance is an explicit PM goal?

probably 'cause they've been doing a questionable job at best

 

[mimgrim]

Why would I switch to Ganon? People keep asking for PMDT to give Ganon a sword without realizing that SwaordGanon already exists in this game and is amazing.

Yea. I don't get the point of people wanting giving Ganon a sword moveset when Ike already exists.

I like what the PMDT is doing with him currently, next patch would be awesome if he received even more animation changes to make him less Falcon like (bring back Brawl Usmash plz).

I'm just really like the design change in 3.5. And I'm back to not know who I want to main. Sheik still feels fantastic, OoT skin made Ganondorf feel better in Project M somehow for me, Black Knight armored Ike (I know it is technically based on Hector but I can't be the only one who thinks the black armor gives off a Black Knight vibe) plus it it helps that Smash 4 Palutena's Super Speed has made me appreciate QD more, ZSS feels awesome in this version whereas in 3.02 I didn't really like playing as her, Wolf still has the best "spacie" feel, and Snake is still a really fun to play. Gah. PMDT. Why you so good at making such a fun mod with such great feeling characters. Makes it hard to find a main. Thought I had finally settle on one for 3.02 (Sheik) but then 3.5 comes around and now other characters feel just as good as she does when I play them.

 

[Boiko]

Did you just insinuate that melee Marth has a weak neutral

is this a comedy routine

Not exactly what I mean, lol.

I mean he's more of a bait and punish character.
Great dash dance and ability to capitalize on mistakes and then punish super hard. He keeps safe pressure on his opponent by staying mobile in the neutral with his DD or spacing, etc.

It's similar to how Ness should be played in PM. If you try to blindly approach, it doesn't work because he doesn't have great approach options. He's better at keeping pressure on with projectiles and spaced aerials and punishing his opponent's approach.

 

[_Chrome]

NZA, I typically agree with a lot of the points you make, but I think you're very wrong in assuming Ness received the heavy here. The character has one of the hardest punish games in 3.5 and now that recoveries are nerfed across the board, his edge guarding is incredible and safe. For a majority of the cast, sweet spotting the ledge against Ness is extremely important because his super fast forward tilt hits hard and far. He also has magnet off stage, rising nair/dair, PK Thunder/Flash harassment, etc.

The simple fact is Ness isn't meant to be an aggro, shield pressure applying character. He is meant to keep safe pressure on his opponent and capitalize when they do something punishable. Think of melee Marth, but instead of a sword, he has a projectile and deeper edge guarding.[/quote]
You took the words out of my mouth.

 

[_Chrome]

Am I like the only Ness main who thinks this character got better?

NU-UH.