Tier List Speculation

[Tero.]

Now we're calling for Ike nerfs? Everything has come full circle.

Didn't you hear? Ike and Lucario are broken now. 3.5 is just 2.1 engine with more characters.

 

[CyberZixx]

How significant is that? How long does it take to act out of? Is there a certain range you can punish him for attempting to quick draw? Maybe I just never found that range and thus got issues with it.

 

[Deleted member]

hey did you guys watch the melee tournament DYFWI last night? top 4 was 4 fox players.

sometimes i think wow project m was designed after melee fox, and i realize how ridiculous that premise really was

ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha melee players

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

How significant is that? How long does it take to act out of? Is there a certain range you can punish him for attempting to quick draw? Maybe I just never found that range and thus got issues with it.

It's seven frames. That's the earlier that Ike can act out of QD. Significant enough that teching towards a QD'ing Ike that isn't on the other end of the stage means he can't punish you. QD isn't actually that good for tech-chasing, approaches, or a lot of things that people think it's good for. It expands Ike's punish zone by enabling him to close distance quickly and actually extend combos. He hits too hard and has too much start up on most move to have a good combo game without QD and most of his conversions need to be off grabs.

Side-B nerfs that wouldn't completely **** Ike over are requiring even more frames before jumping out for more commitment and making it charge even slower in the air for worse recovery. Mess with his ability to do things out of QD though and that requires either engine changes or just destroys him as a character. Remember he can't do anything you can't do out of a normal dash with JC, QD just does it a ton faster and introduces an important mix-up in a sluggish character's arsenal.

 

[CyberZixx]

I personally fear it in neutral. When ike does it I got no idea what he is gonna do and he don't gotta commit to any option and can react to me. I end up over respecting it but feel that there is no way it can't be dealt with or other people would complain. Any tips for shutting down Ike's quick draw?

 

[The_NZA]

I mean... yeah. It's mostly either that, masturbate to Ganondorf changes, or talk about how much your character wasn't changed... and the latter isn't great conversation material.

OMG, they changed Marth's dash grab and jab2!

They made Wolf's laser faster (maybesupposedtobeanerfbutnotreallyanerf?) and made some changes that don't change him all that much! (much of this almost seems like change for the sake of change, actually)

SHEIK CAN'T BUFFER INPUTS OUT OF TRANSFORM, THE WORLD IS ENDING

Collision fixes and sfx buffs are damn nice btw, gotta admit that. Delicious buttery wavelands.

-----

Wall o text incoming, you've been warned.



Alright, I'm gonna walk you through this in roughly the order that things happened.

ZSS had a few moves that straight up did not work properly for various reasons in 3.02. Among these are fair and usmash. They were probably the first things changed, and these changes represent fixes.

Tether nerfs happened at some point. This kills the ZSS, a character already perceived as pretty mid-tier. Utilt, dtilt, nair, jab3, dash attack buffed in damage to compensate.

Down-b changed subtly in various ways.

A few BNBs got toned down somewhere along the way. Nair range and BKB reduced (big change, was a staple combo option), fsmash adjusted (backwards hitboxes no longer function as effective combo starters), dair got nerfed a bit (probably warranted, and the hitlag adjustment fits in with a broader design goal), dsmash got nerfed.

The last part is where things get somewhat disagreeable, but it's workable and if that's all that had happened the grumbling from ZSS players would be more in line with anyone else that got nerfs. Hell, ZSS even got a couple buffs fixes! But there's more. The stuff from here onwards is where everything goes to hell in a handcart.

ZSS has a slow as balls tether grab and it makes certain things harder/more complicated. Also her (old, tether) dash grab is really awkward because it's suuuuuuuuuuuper slow and the distance is weird.

So somebody had an idea: give her a normal grab! No need to try and adapt other tools or just balance around a given weakness. So they did. And it changes everything. Her conversions, her defensive play, everything changes because suddenly she has a much more viable grab. Some of those nerfs above might've even happened as a direct result of this, I don't know. What we do know is that this made her throws really ridiculous, so those got changed too. IASA frames were set later, dthrow angle was adjusted... and uthrow is now a spacie chaingrab thanks to a shiny new 82 degree angle. While obviously this buffs her against spacies (historically a bad matchup for her), this is the same update that just removed a bunch of chaingrabs. Oh, and the old uthrow/dthrow mixups and followups off of each no longer exist as a result of these changes.

There's still one looming elephant in the room: dash cancel paralyzer (DCP) into grab is kind of a big thing after this change. So the dash cancel gets canceled, as it were. Uncharged paralyzer shots are also no longer transcendent, but I suspect that was happening regardless. Anyway, now paralyzer sucks. So they buff the startup, travel speed, let her drift during aerial shots. To be honest it still sucks, but there's another problem.

Removing DCP and changing her grab fundamentally changes the way ZSS plays. DCP beautifully emphasizes her speedy, slippery, ultra-mobile playstyle. The tether is less fundamental to her playstyle, but DCP cannot coexist with the new grab and opinions on the old one were not overwhelmingly negative by any means. Subtle changes to dash grab likely would've relieved the most widespread complaints.

The end result is that ZSS's modus operandi has lost much of what made her unique and interesting, replacing those elements with an emphasis on a more traditional style based on DDing and CQC.

tl;dr this quote epitomizes the different ZSS playstyles:



They changed ZSS from a character that could do both reasonably well but somewhat favored the latter approach to focus more on the former instead, and she's immensely less interesting and unique for it.

Each side considers different elements of her game important. Things like DCP are, to the former camp, nonessential flavor elements. They prioritize a solid moveset base over flair elements that define that character's playstyle in small (or not so small) but meaningful ways.

Imagine if vBrawl suddenly changed and Salem had to start playing ZSS less like Salem and more like old Nick Riddle play (no disrespect Nick, you know what I mean). It's not the best analogy (you can tell I'm struggling for an analogy when I reference vBrawl lol), but 3.02 ZSS -> 3.5 ZSS is kind of like that.

And no, Oro is not singlehandedly responsible for these changes. He's well known for the particular playstyle the PMDT elected to emphasize, however.

Much of what I've said regarding the process of her changes is corroborated by statements from a PMDT member here.

I feel honored for being quoted. Thanks.

Also Ness is bottom tier for real bruh.

AS a visual aid, here's the last time I played Numerics in tournament.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PhNn0L26o6I

 

[The_NZA]

So how bout dat GnW still having a frame-1 get outta jail free card that leads to just about whatever he wants.

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/589229988
06:01:00

Shoutouts to unwinnable matchups. Btw, Ness got nerfed harder than Mewtwo, Lucas, Metaknight and Snake tbh.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I personally fear it in neutral. When ike does it I got no idea what he is gonna do and he don't gotta commit to any option and can react to me. I end up over respecting it but feel that there is no way it can't be dealt with or other people would complain. Any tips for shutting down Ike's quick draw?

... run towards him.

An Ike that begins charging QD in neutral has just severely cut away a lot of his options. He can't shield, he can't grab and he can't even jump out before a certain distance. The only thing he *can* do up close now is instant QD attack, which doesn't reach particularly high and a so a well-spaced SHFFL or any low-reaching FH aerial hits Ike first. Even a dash attack will clank with Ike's QD attack and he'll get nothing out of it. My practice partner does his all the time with Peach.

If the stage is big enough and Ike isn't in center stage, running away and platform camping means that Ike can only do aerial approaches which you can see coming from a mile away and react accordingly. If he fairs, you now have a great view of his exposed chest as it comes hurtling towards you. If its poorly spaced you whack him, if its properly spaced you shield, he gets nothing. This sacrifices stage control however which the Ike player can definitely leverage, so do this only when you're trying to bait Ike over to that side of the stage.

Or jump over him and now he's committed to QD'ing away from you and has lost stage control himself.

Or throw out a projectile if you have one.

Repeat after me: QD is bad in neutral. Ikes who QD in neutral are bad Ikes. QD is a punish for an opponent who has committed, been baited or otherwise made a mistake. QD extends Ike's combos, or rather, gives him combos where Ike's combo options are limited due to his power. QD is bad in neutral.

"I don't know how to deal with it" is not a geed reason for nerfing one of the few things that makes a character viable btw.

 

[Ripple]

http://www.twitch.tv/gameunderground/b/589229988
06:01:00

Shoutouts to unwinnable matchups. Btw, Ness got nerfed harder than Mewtwo, Lucas, Metaknight and Snake tbh.

unwinnable? you have no idea how to play against G&W and it showed it how much you got punished. get better. its obvious what your mistakes were and you didn't try to fix them at all.

 

[The_NZA]

unwinnable? you have no idea how to play against G&W and it showed it how much you got punished. get better. its obvious what your mistakes were and you didn't try to fix them at all.

I'm pretty much joking, but I always appreciate tips and constructive criticism. Just a preemptive thank you for being such a supportive community member, my dude in the case you give me any help.

 

[Ripple]

I can't tell when people are joking since 3.5 dropped

but if you do want constructive criticism, I can give it

 

[CyberZixx]

@ Thane of Blue Flames Thanks a lot. I'll rethink that move and learn to deal with it. You are correct, I believe my issue mostly came from salt, due to losing to an Ike player who kinda spams it and it being seemingly effective. I'll learn to expose him for it instead of QQing.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Speaking of ZSS, wtf is up with these hitboxes

Spoiler

Illuminate bat signal

Can someone explain the dins
I hate the fact it ****s the camera up
I will ban her

 

[GP&B]

@ Thane of Blue Flames Thanks a lot. I'll rethink that move and learn to deal with it. You are correct, I believe my issue mostly came from salt, due to losing to an Ike player who kinda spams it and it being seemingly effective. I'll learn to expose him for it instead of QQing.

Seeing as you play Roy, use FTilt. A lot. It's terrifyingly good for a lot of situations against Ike and will stuff virtually any QD approach (and in case of a WD backwards, just a reset to neutral). It can effectively outrange Fair and Nair. Outside of that, dash in with DTilt and that will really screw up any QD options as well.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Hol' up.

Who in **** tried to say Ness got nerfed harder than Mewtwo. Or Diddy perhaps. Not sure if I saw Diddy, definitely saw Mewtwo.

 

[DMG]

Ness has like, 4 good tools. Diddy and M2 maybe have 10. If half of Ness got nerfed, and 75% of Diddy/M2 got nerfed, he would still have fewer good tools than them. That's probably where they are going with that

 

[Boiko]

IMO Ness is one of the best designed characters in 3.5. Sorry you can no longer get results by PKF spamming.

This update is where players with good fundamentals will shine over those that relied on 'gimmicks'.

 

[shairn]

Shield pressure with a projectile is dumb.
I'm looking at you, Ivy.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

The question for me isn't necessarily whether the PKF change is bad. It's not. PKF on shields was great and Ness had no reason not to abuse it.

My very real concern is that simply removing PKF's ability to activate on shield whilst not giving Ness many significant buffs - whatever he may need, I'll not profess to be any sort of expert on that - may hold him back even in 3.5's toned down environs.

We'll have to see if Dair really is that good at edge-guarding.

 

[shairn]

Can't go wrong with a frame 5 meteor that can be DJC.

 

[GP&B]

Ness can go pretty deep and Dair being as fast and in short duration as it is should be a serious boon for him in the 3.5 environment.

 

[King Bee]

The whole problem with Ness is that, yeah, PK Fire was a silly gimmick that had to go- but it was a silly gimmick that stood in as a poor man's substitute for his complete lack of a neutral game. They took it away and gave him nothing to replace it, so now what does he have? Fair?

Improved offstage edgeguarding ability doesn't really mean anything if every other character dunks on you hard onstage. Getting beat to **** or playing runaway all day, hoping and praying your opponent makes a mistake so you can actually punish, without having any tools to force them to do anything or control space, is not really a fun and satisfying way to play the game.

I mean, I'll get over it and keep playing and looking for ways around it, but it's kind of a punch in the gut, you know?

 

[DARKcpu0]

So lets talk about ice climbers.

 

[DARKcpu0]

The whole problem with Ness is that, yeah, PK Fire was a silly gimmick that had to go- but it was a silly gimmick that stood in as a poor man's substitute for his complete lack of a neutral game. They took it away and gave him nothing to replace it, so now what does he have? Fair?

Improved offstage edgeguarding ability doesn't really mean anything if every other character dunks on you hard onstage. Getting beat to **** or playing runaway all day, hoping and praying your opponent makes a mistake so you can actually punish, without having any tools to force them to do anything or control space, is not really a fun and satisfying way to play the game.

I mean, I'll get over it and keep playing and looking for ways around it, but it's kind of a punch in the gut, you know?

WELCOME TO BEING A ****ING MEWTWO MAIN

SOMEONE WHO SHARES MY PAIN :D

I mean, fair isnt a bad approach, and you could just play fox and approach with down b if you wanna be risky.

 

[shairn]

The whole problem with Ness is that, yeah, PK Fire was a silly gimmick that had to go- but it was a silly gimmick that stood in as a poor man's substitute for his complete lack of a neutral game. They took it away and gave him nothing to replace it, so now what does he have? Fair?

Improved offstage edgeguarding ability doesn't really mean anything if every other character dunks on you hard onstage. Getting beat to **** or playing runaway all day, hoping and praying your opponent makes a mistake so you can actually punish, without having any tools to force them to do anything or control space, is not really a fun and satisfying way to play the game.

I mean, I'll get over it and keep playing and looking for ways around it, but it's kind of a punch in the gut, you know?

You can still force them into their shield with the new/old PK fire. Kind of like bad Falco lasers with extra reward when you do hit.

 

[kaizo13]

saying Ness has a bad neutral game now that 3.0 pk fire is gone just shows how much you relied on that tool, and how little you explored the rest of the character.

Ness was one of my mains in 3.0 and i hardly ever used pk fire. It's amazing the things he can do with the rest of his move-set

 

[King Bee]

saying Ness has a bad neutral game now that 3.0 pk fire is gone just shows how much you relied on that tool, and how little you explored the rest of the character.

Ness was one of my mains in 3.0 and i hardly ever used pk fire. It's amazing the things he can do with the rest of his move-set

Do you have any videos? I'd honestly like to know what I'm doing wrong here, because everything he has now feels either really limited or predictable. That's not a 3.5 thing, it's a Smash thing. Having a projectile that everyone had to be afraid of just let him threaten some space for once.

 

[Scrubby]

Use magnet in neutral to mix up your movement. That move just gained a true purpose because of the pk fire nerf.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Use magnet in neutral to mix up your movement. That move just gained a true purpose because of the pk fire nerf.

you could just play fox and approach with down b if you wanna be risky.

Huh. Didn't think I'd be right on that.

 

[Scrubby]

Kinda I guess, but magnet is really different from shine, in the sense that when used in the air, you drift with it. Mixed with djc, there's a lot of stuff you can do, like fade back magnet djc fair, or magnet drift dair or uair.

 

[SpiderMad]

- Falco and Roy because they both got better thanks to overall better cast balance and Falco getting his Melee Up+B back instead of the WORSE recovery he had before (woo)

I can't tell how significant Falco's dair nerf was

 

[TTTTTsd]

Hardly. It still spikes on all frames although the hitbox is worse on the later ones the move is pretty easily the same thing. Slight nerf but Falco's Up+B recovery boost more than makes up for it. Proper fire bird is a godsend.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Tell me about Falco new up b

 

[TTTTTsd]

It goes Melee distance now which is actually better than it went before IIRC. Last I checked it actually went LESS than Melee in 3.02, it just FEELS better here.

 

[steelguttey]

just want to add that olimar isnt as bad now as you guys think. he still has the best pivot grab in the game and the only real nerfs are that you cant use side b to force the opponent to do stupid **** and you cant get 9000000 usmashes off of dthrow

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Frankly I expect the next update to be a buffpatch and for Ness to be somewhere on that list.

I mean keep the positivity Ness mains, but I do feel y'all need some more tools.

 

[FlamingForce]

Olimar's upb has become even more unreliable in my experience, I sd atleast once per game because it just flat-out refuses to actually grab the ledge even tho it's well in range.

Like I actually hear the ledge snappy sound but nothing happens.

 

[Bleck]

This update is where players with good fundamentals will shine over those that relied on 'gimmicks'.

can you explain to me what this means exactly 'cause all I hear when I read it is hurrrrr durrrrrrrrrrrr

 

[Boiko]

Frankly I expect the next update to be a buffpatch and for Ness to be somewhere on that list.

I mean keep the positivity Ness mains, but I do feel y'all need some more tools.

I personally think Ness has a lot of tools now. He needs his ability to sweet spot while facing backwards fixed. That's the most important thing.

After that, making magnet a few frames faster would be perfect. Other than that, I like his design and I think he's fine.

can you explain to me what this means exactly 'cause all I hear when I read it is hurrrrr durrrrrrrrrrrr

Do you actually want me to explain or are you just being a child?

 

[Bleck]

Do you actually want me to explain or are you just being a child?

kids are always the first to bring up who's a kid and who ain't

but yeah I would actually like an explanation as to what "fundamentals" are and why "dodging projectiles" apparently doesn't count