Tier List Speculation

[Hinichii.ez.™]

At least one local MK is switching to a new character because he can't deal with the changes. MK still really that strong?

He's just mad cause of these:
Nerfed grab range<just boost
Nerfed dthrow
Get gud
New dair lets you be more agro and has more applications
Get gud I say
The lagged added to the up b is hella annoying, I'll say that much.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Can PMDT explain to me why Zard can't angle his glide during start-up anymore? Okay lets look at how lots of other characters got nerfed. They have more risk to them like Shuttle loop. Sure, Zard lost invul and has negative disjoint on glair now. Certainly more risk. That's huge.

Lets look at other mobility options. Squirlte's withdrawal and MK Dair. Both options were nerfed, but neither took significant risk before. Zard's glide took significant risk. Now its been nerfed with further risk, invulnerability, range, AND control. Like I get a lot of those things but the control too? Unlike many other characters it was a mobility option that actually took a lot of skill and practice to use, and much like DJC you could die to anyone who called you out on it. Which is quite easy, especially with negative disjoint now. Does this not fit PM's design goals?

This on top of all his other nerfs of course which I think are mostly fine. I still kind of think F-tilt's animation should be changed. What I would do is shorten the distance Zard's head goes slightly, and add a fire graphic at the end. Turning the move into Fire Fang. This would make it so the move is slightly disjointed still, but only during its active frames. Meaning no invincible anti-airs like before, but still a solid poke which Zard severely lacks. All of his stuff was punishable before and is now even more free with Shield DI. You want Zard to play a solid ground game clearly, since he lacks his main air mobility option now and has no way to pressure shields with his aerials like many other characters. But even his ground game is quite restricted against competent players.

 

[DMG]

Charizard: just run around doing stuff, sometimes grab people, and don't forget to hold down 90% of the time


He's a big boy. He puts on his big boy pants 1 leg at a time, just like the rest of us. He'll be fine

 

[Blank Mauser]

Just run around doing stuff is a lot less fun than hype ledge cancels is all. Plus air jukes are still there, you just can't direct your nair without wave bounce. So its like...why? What purpose does that serve?

Grab is quite literally what Zard's game devolves to against good opponents. Usmash out of shield, Shield DI + Wavedash OOS etc. kind of destroy his other options at neutral, and thats if you can get them to respect you enough to shield lol.

If I just wanted to DD grab people I'd just play Marth. At least his aerials and fade-aways don't whiff on every short/crouching character.

 

[WolfieXVII ❂]

Link isn't as bad this iteration as people say.

 

[Frost | Odds]

@ Shell I don't know if it's intentional, or if this is the right place to put it, but there seems to be a pretty upsetting property with M2's Teleport now. If he's right next to the ledge but facing the wrong way to grab it, and teleports at the ledge to turn around -- he doesn't actually turn around.

I'm not a Mewtwo main, but that was pretty saddening to see. Hotfix pls? =[

 

[TTTTTsd]

You know who's godlike this iteration? Star Wolf.

The gun is so real. IDK if I wanna play Falco or him in P:M now, he's so fun as of this update. His kit is just really cool and he handles like, the spacey of my dreams.

 

[didds]

Squirtle is gonna be sweet slippery sexy balls in 3.5, the gimps will be real after all of these recovery nerfs.

And people are crying that his toxic move got nerfed, when it's still a stupidly good move.

 

[Shell]

@ Frost | Odds I'll look into it, in the future if something sounds like a bug make a post in the bug reporting sub-forum, it's easier to keep track of everything in one place.

@ Foo You're certainly welcome to take a poll or open a thread in the ZSS board if you wish. The only thing I ask is that you (1) wait a week for the initial change salt to wear off a bit so we can hear a more objective assessment, (2) make sure your post / poll are neutral enough to not be obviously attempting to bias responses (just good science and forum behavior in general), and (3) understand that this is a valuable gauge of one section of the community's opinion, but that this does not necessarily mean that the PMDT is obligated to make any changes in accordance with those poll results. If that's all good, have at.

 

[Frost | Odds]

inb4 new Jigglypuff meta to counter the influx of new Wolf players. :D

 

[Foo]

@ Frost | Odds I'll look into it, in the future if something sounds like a bug make a post in the bug reporting sub-forum, it's easier to keep track of everything in one place.

@ Foo You're certainly welcome to take a poll or open a thread in the ZSS board if you wish. The only thing I ask is that you (1) wait a week for the initial change salt to wear off a bit so we can hear a more objective assessment, (2) make sure your post / poll are neutral enough to not be obviously attempting to bias responses (just good science and forum behavior in general), and (3) understand that this is a valuable gauge of one section of the community's opinion, but that this does not necessarily mean that the PMDT is obligated to make any changes in accordance with those poll results. If that's all good, have at.

whoops, too late lol. I already made it, but I did make it neutral by giving an option to sign the petition on either side. That way we'll see the % of ZSS players that like and dislike the changes. I understand that pmdt isn't obligated to do any of that, but I'll try anyway lol. (made it a petition instead of a poll to keep it from being anon votes from random people).

Anyone who wants to sign a petition to restore 3.0 ZSS's gameplay style, links here. http://smashboards.com/threads/petition-to-restore-zero-suit-samus.378230/

 

[MagnesD3]

Squirtle is gonna be sweet slippery sexy balls in 3.5, the gimps will be real after all of these recovery nerfs.

And people are crying that his toxic move got nerfed, when it's still a stupidly good move.

Ill miss that moves dumbness but oh well.

 

[didds]

Ill miss that moves dumbness but oh well.

I promise you that it's most useful applications are still there, you just have to think a bit to use it.
That was pretty much the trend of this entire update, to take out the jank and enlighten the jank abusers as to where they really stand in an environment where players must think about which of their moves they should use.

 

[MagnesD3]

I promise you that it's most useful applications are still there, you just have to think a bit to use it.
That was pretty much the trend of this entire update, to take out the jank and enlighten the jank abusers as to where they really stand in an environment where players must think about which of their moves they should use.

I know, it was just fun to be dumb with lol.

 

[didds]

I know, it was just fun to be dumb with lol.

it was up until friends stopped being friends

 

[TTTTTsd]

Other characters I like a lot in this update include
- Luigi, who has not been buffed at all but again mechanics changes and cast nerfs benefit him the most. Shield DI and castwide nerfs outside of him for the most part leave him in a better spot.
- Bowser who can now swag out and waveland
- Ganondorf for obvious reasons, this update is called 3.Ganondorf to me, whoever made the float a part of his moveset I will buy you a beer
- Mario because thank god you guys didn't go too hard on him
- Falco and Roy because they both got better thanks to overall better cast balance and Falco getting his Melee Up+B back instead of the WORSE recovery he had before (woo)
I see all of these characters having a brighter (or equally bright in the case of Mario) future due to the cast changes overall. I feel like this update was like, pulling the top tiers DOWN to match the lower ones and it seems to have paid off.

 

[NWRL]

I feel like Guts is gonna be pretty dammed good in 3.5. PMDT add Griffith Marth skin pls

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

"sonic goes from the single best to the single worst over night via nerfing every single one of his moves including his main combo starter the down b and i'm pretty sure he can't even run nearly as fast lol. thanks for wasting the last six months of my life"

Music to my ears, 3.5 is so godlike

 

[Scrubby]

Biggest buff to ness is people can't whine anymore when playing me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I wish that we still nerfed Ike's Side-B. Unpopular opinion, but w/e.

... in what way?

As a recovery?

Or the ability to jump out of it?

Because if you take away the latter you might as well remove Ike.

 

[Player -0]

Ness still had OP D-Throw CG's and combos though. Obviously broken.

That reminds me that Ness' D-Throw wasn't nerfed (I think). With some of the easier followup throws gone I'm surprised this is still in.

 

[FlamingForce]

Ness still had OP D-Throw CG's and combos though. Obviously broken.

That reminds me that Ness' D-Throw wasn't nerfed (I think). With some of the easier followup throws gone I'm surprised this is still in.

Lolwut
Dthrow got nerfed into the ground man, it's still pretty decent on fastfallers at low% but yeah that's it.

 

[Player -0]

Brb changelog.

 

[TTTTTsd]

For the record, this is a pretty bad habit of mine but I do it anyways, every single P:M update, I refer to Sonic as one thing.

Sonic the Changelog. I've never been wrong about it yet! =3 (I'm horrible and truly sorry that the char got changed up again)

 

[Soft Serve]

"sonic goes from the single best to the single worst over night via nerfing every single one of his moves including his main combo starter the down b and i'm pretty sure he can't even run nearly as fast lol. thanks for wasting the last six months of my life"

Music to my ears, 3.5 is so godlike

Gotta love socal player complaints. Apperantly the general attitude towards the patch was really bad at the last SSS. I feel like people wanted every character to get nerfed, butvnot thier own, and now they flip out because they don't have it easy mode any more.

@ Frost | Odds jiggly/wolf is even at worst for wolf, I think he wins it. Imo wolf only loses the spacie dittos, and then goes even with like half the cast.

 

[FlamingForce]

So how bout dat GnW still having a frame-1 get outta jail free card that leads to just about whatever he wants.

 

[Player -0]

Can you post the changes? I can't get to them from where I am. From scouting the Ness boards it seems like the KBG was increased?

Either way Ness is still awesome, prob gonna try double Ness in Dubz some.

 

[FlamingForce]

Spoiler

Tilts
-Forward Tilt changed to have less endlag 35 frames -> 28 frames and hit at a more horizontal angle 361 -> 34, BKB slightly reduced 12 -> 10.

Aerials
-Up Air animation edited slightly to more accurately match Melee.

Throws
-Down Throw knockback changed such that characters fly further as their percent increases. KBG 70 -> 80, BKB 85 -> 78.

Specials
-Forward Special (PK Fire)
--No longer activates on shield.
--Initial hit damage raised from 0 to 8 and now has same KB as the pillar. Victim can no longer shield between the fireball hit and the first pillar hit.
--Pillar hits changed in duration from 100 frames to 45, but time between pillar pulses is slightly reduced. Pillar pulse damage reduced from 3 to 1, but can no longer be reflected.
--Pillar gravity increased so it prevents whiffing when aerial pk fire hits some characters' heads for the first few pulses.
-Up Special (PK Thunder)
--Bolt no longer hits Shy Guys and Smashville balloon.
--Can no longer reverse ledge grab after falling from a missed PK Thunder 1
--PK Thunder 2 now always go into 20-frame landing lag instead of variable time dependent on height, but can now properly edge-cancel.

Others
-Dash Attack 3rd hit extended slightly to match Melee range.
-Spotdodge, fixed an error that had invincibility ending 1 frame earlier and having IASA 1 frame earlier than normal
-Hitlag normalized on the following attacks: Dash Attack hit2, Forward Air final hit, Up-b Startup, and PK Thunder 2.

 

[Scrubby]

They changed the angle of d-throw so that it's more upward. They reduced base knockback but raised growth knockback. That means at early percent, ness has follow up, but he can't connect to kill moves at higher percent, making the use of b-throw and f-throw more useful. Ness is basically not a flowchart anymore.

 

[Scrubby]

I feel like everyone has to commit now to get something started. There's no more bull**** like double nanners and pk fire on shield. Everyone has to go in and do stuff. Project m went from low risk/high reward, to high risk/high reward, which is for the best.

 

[Rᴏb]

So how bout dat GnW still having a frame-1 get outta jail free card that leads to just about whatever he wants.

shhh
it's okay G&W isn't good
my reasoning: Fox

 

[HK_Spadez]

The lucario changes have made it so hard to sweet spot his up b from various angles. And it's not consistant. I don't mind if u nerf the recovery. But it was done in such a way that causes anyone playing with his old style will sd like crazy. And sometimes u wont. Namely trying to hit the ledge at 45 degree angles. U guys said u increased the grab box but that seems to not be enough. Any thoughts on this?

 

[FlamingForce]

The lucario changes have made it so hard to sweet spot his up b from various angles. And it's not consistant. I don't mind if u nerf the recovery. But it was done in such a way that causes anyone playing with his old style will sd like crazy. And sometimes u wont. Namely trying to hit the ledge at 45 degree angles. U guys said u increased the grab box but that seems to not be enough. Any thoughts on this?

You'll just have to play a new style then, you're not the only one who got some changes that'll mess with your muscle memory.
And to be fair in 3.0 he was capable of sweetspotting from a distance that put brawl to shame.

 

[Player -0]

I don't see the angle change. I think I like how the change sounds. Completely skipped Ness' D-throw change, only saw the PKF and F-Tilt change.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

You'll just have to play a new style then, you're not the only one who got some changes that'll mess with your muscle memory.
And to be fair in 3.0 he was capable of sweetspotting from a distance that put brawl to shame.

Aether used to be able to sweetspot from distances that did not make sense if one assumes Euclidean geometry, Newtonian physics and a loving god. A bunch of my edge-guarding tech is either riskier to leads to SDs now. So it goes.

Try extensively experimenting with debug mode?

 

[Soft Serve]

shhh
it's okay G&W isn't good
my reasoning: Fox

While this mu was rough before, gnw got even more tools to deal with it
bucket charges are normalized for each projectile, so one shdl makes a bucket that does 24%. It's still probably 60/40 fox but completely doable

 

[Rᴏb]

While this mu was rough before, gnw got even more tools to deal with it
bucket charges are normalized for each projectile, so one shdl makes a bucket that does 24%. It's still probably 60/40 fox but completely doable

Oh I was just joking. All people are going to do now is ***** that Fox is the best again, so I figured people would actually take my reasoning seriously even though it wasn't.

Personally I thought the Fox MU was even in 3.02, so I'm going to assume it's in G&W's favor now.

 

[CyberZixx]

Aether used to be able to sweetspot from distances that did not make sense if one assumes Euclidean geometry, Newtonian physics and a loving god. A bunch of my edge-guarding tech is either riskier to leads to SDs now. So it goes.

Try extensively experimenting with debug mode?

What patch was that changed. Also I would not mind if Ike had Side b nerfed a bit. I feel when PMDT mentioned nerfing burst movement options, that would be affected. I feel either way it got too many options. Maybe remove ability to Wavedash outta it so it is a more of a commitment.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

If he can jump out of it, he can wavedash out of it. He can do all those things because of all the stuff that jump-cancels entail.

There already a good amount of commitment on the move - that was the first thing to be touched in 2.5, making Ike be unable to cancel QD for a few frames to there's a min distance he has to commit to.

 

[NWRL]

Now we're calling for Ike nerfs? Everything has come full circle.