Tier List Speculation

[Eisen]

WITHIN 5 FRAMES OF THE 2ND JUMP BEING USED.

THAT IS A PRETTY SMALL WINDOW TO WORK WITH.

Lmao, if 5 frames is bad for you, I'd hate to see how you'd react as a Lucas main. To pressure anyone with magnet, you have to be super precise now, especially against smaller characters. Because of the new hitlag when you hit someone with magnet, you have to actually wait before DJing into a fair or you do a double jump without the aerial. It's so crazy that a character for whom I'm used to requiring all my technical prowess to now actually force me to wait to do something.

But, I can still make it work, as I outlined in another thread.

All I can say is, be glad you're not Lucas.

As for approaching spacies, it sounds like Mewtwo has to work for it like, say, Bowser does. Basically all Bowser has against Falco in the neutral is platform movement (which usually is stuffed by laser) and powershield. At least Mewtwo has a projectile and fast/ranged tilts, lmao.

All I'm saying is, you'll get used to it. Think positive! You have a responsibility to find how your character works. It seems he has the tools, but actually knowing when and how to use them is more the player's responsibility now.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Lmao, if 5 frames is bad for yo-

Turned out to be 2.

As for your DJ thing into fair, assuming out of magnet, I dont find it so hard. Playing around with it now. Feels natural.

 

[Frost | Odds]

2 frames is a bit tight, but it's really nothing unusual. DACUS is a 2 frame window across the board, and is quite easy. Bowser's full hop nair waveland shenanigans have a window in the realm of 2 frames for both the nair (after jumping) and the waveland. Most of the shortened lengths of Wolf's side-b have 1 frame windows - the longest one is 2 and is quite easy. Jiggs dair has a 1 or 2 frame (I forget which) window to L-cancel if you're hitting someone's shield.

The list goes on for, uh, quite some time.

 

[Eisen]

Turned out to be 2.

As for your DJ thing into fair, assuming out of magnet, I dont find it so hard. Playing around with it now. Feels natural.

Have you tried it on the walls of Shadow Moses Island? Even if it's more fair, it's significantly a mind**** to anyone who's played Lucas at even mid levels of the game.

Oh, I can magnet > fair just fine out in the open. It's when you hit something that magnet takes longer to cancel. 4 frames longer, if I'm not mistaken, but it feels like longer than that.

Trust me though, I can magnet > jump magnet > jc fair > magnet loop much faster than you can probably imagine, lmao.

 

[Deleted member]

Xxshadicxx: Everybody all "Oh my god my character is ruined you don't even know what you're doing PMDT" combined with "____ character is fair to play against now! Thanks PMDT!"

 

[DARKcpu0]

Have you tried it on the walls of Shadow Moses Island? Even if it's more fair, it's significantly a mind**** to anyone who's played Lucas at even mid levels of the game.

Oh, I can magnet > fair just fine out in the open. It's when you hit something that magnet takes longer to cancel. 4 frames longer, if I'm not mistaken, but it feels like longer than that.

Trust me though, I can magnet > jump magnet > jc fair > magnet loop much faster than you can probably imagine, lmao.

I had originally tested on bowser, I must say, doing it on shadow moses is pretty awkward. Not gonna lie. The timing on the ground is longer than in the air however, atleast from what I can tell.

2 frames is a bit tight, but it's really nothing unusual. DACUS is a 2 frame window across the board, and is quite easy. Bowser's full hop nair waveland shenanigans have a window in the realm of 2 frames for both the nair (after jumping) and the waveland. Most of the shortened lengths of Wolf's side-b have 1 frame windows - the longest one is 2 and is quite easy. Jiggs dair has a 1 or 2 frame (I forget which) window to L-cancel if you're hitting someone's shield.

The list goes on for, uh, quite some time.

Lol bowser stop. Also, Dacus. What even is dacus. I cant dacus. I can dacus in vbrawl. Not in pm. The ****. That bowser thing, pretty ****ing easy.

 

[DARKcpu0]

On a non-mewtwo note,

Has Roy always had a frame of invincibility on his up special?

 

[Player -0]

You can't DACUS, much less don't even know what it is? Get out.

Professor Pro is disappoint in you.

 

[Ripple]

yes he has. same as marth

 

[DARKcpu0]

You can't DACUS, much less don't even know what it is? Get out.

Professor Pro is disappoint in you.

Lol. Someone miss the part where I said I can Dacus in vbrawl?

 

[Frost | Odds]

Xxshadicxx: Everybody all "Oh my god my character is ruined you don't even know what you're doing PMDT" combined with "____ character is fair to play against now! Thanks PMDT!"

There an IRC channel or something that I don't know about?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

There an IRC channel or something that I don't know about?

yes

 

[Player -0]

Lol. Someone miss the part where I said I can Dacus in vbrawl?

DACUS in vBrawl is dumb amounts of easy. It has buffer and stuff. Do BDacus, it's more comparable in difficulty, maybe a bit harder.

Edit - DACUS in P:M is NOT hard.

 

[DARKcpu0]

DACUS in vBrawl is dumb amounts of easy. It has buffer and stuff. Do BDacus, it's more comparable in difficulty, maybe a bit harder.

Edit - DACUS in P:M is NOT hard.

I know its not hard. I just cant do it for some reason.

Same reason I can multishine with fox and wolf, but not falco.

The spacey I actually ****ing use.

Makes no sense, should be easy, but I just cant?

 

[DMG]

IRC is for nerds, always has been

...

Spoiler

I'll see you guys there in a sec

 

[Frost | Odds]

yes

God damnit.

So uh, where all the GnW mains at? He feels pretty godly this time around. I think my GnW is better than my tink now, which is pretty sad to say the least. =[

 

[didds]

... eh?

This is the most civil argument I've seen in this thread

sorry, i was commenting from a few pages back when people were suffering from the nerfpocalypse, only now have I read this discussion

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

God damnit.

So uh, where all the GnW mains at? He feels pretty godly this time around. I think my GnW is better than my tink now, which is pretty sad to say the least. =[

Everyone is dead because mk is alive

 

[Frost | Odds]

Everyone is dead because mk is alive

At least one local MK is switching to a new character because he can't deal with the changes. MK still really that strong?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Legit question for GnW players: What does your character do? What is his gameplan? How does he operate? What strengths does he possess? How does he approach his matches?

GnW is one the few characters I don't have any kind of feel for so I'd love to know. I know he's a paper-light heavy-hitter and that's it.

At least one local MK is switching to a new character because he can't deal with the changes. MK still really that strong?

Don't believe the Unenlightened. The Winged Demon still reigns supreme.

 

[DMG]

G&W master plan: Force-feed your opponent meats until they beg for mercy. Then, deliver exactly 0 mercy as you pass judgment onto their souls.

 

[Foo]

Alright, now that the Fox/spacies in general discussion has calmed down, I'd like to take a moment to be salty about the ZSS changes again. *Clears throat*

*Breaks into tears*

Why?! Why? WHY!?!?! WHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHY?!
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!
YOU WERE SO YOUNG *sobbing* AND THEY KILLED YOU WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
*wipes tears*
I would like to reach out to all ZSS and squirtle mains. At times like these, we need to band together and form a support group for everyone who's main got nerfed to hell for absolutely no reason.
*Starts crying again*





P.S. Game and Watch is secret High Tier this patch.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

G&W master plan: Force-feed your opponent meats until they beg for mercy. Then, deliver exactly 0 mercy as you pass judgment onto their souls.

So ... he does that with tech chasing or ...

 

[DARKcpu0]

Legit question for GnW players: What does your character do? What is his gameplan? How does he operate? What strengths does he possess? How does he approach his matches?

Force feed the opponent, Jack off to it, Make RNG your ***** and get 57 missed 9's on judgement.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Alright, now that the Fox/spacies in general discussion has calmed down, I'd like to take a moment to be salty about the ZSS changes again. *Clears throat*

*Breaks into tears*

Why?! Why? WHY!?!?! WHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHYWHY?!
WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY?!
YOU WERE SO YOUNG *sobbing* AND THEY KILLED YOU WAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH
I JUST WANT TO KNOW WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!
*wipes tears*
I would like to reach out to all ZSS and squirtle mains. At times like these, we need to band together and form a support group for everyone who's main got nerfed to hell for absolutely no reason.
*Starts crying again*





P.S. Game and Watch is secret High Tier this patch.

Guess there isnt any room for a mewtwo main like me in that club is there.

 

[trash?]

I don't even feel comfortable calling MK's dair being changed back to be a nerf, tbh. he switched one incredible dair for another incredible dair, it's just that this one has different uses

 

[Deleted member]

Legit question for GnW players: What does your character do? What is his gameplan? How does he operate? What strengths does he possess? How does he approach his matches?

dtilt/upthrow > things

 

[DMG]

This MK Dair is also not a nightmare to balance or justify its existence. MK divekick was bound to leave one side of MK vs opponent "mostly unhappy" if you start tweaking it in either direction. This Dair, you might find a fair balance of knockback/angles/speed/lag/etc even if it was only after another round of patches.

 

[Foo]

Guess there isnt any room for a mewtwo main like me in that club is there.

M2 was god tier, ZSS was like higher side of mid or lower side of upper mid. Besides, mewtwo is still approximately the same character. They literally removed ALL of ZSS's bread and butter. Her BnB approach was removed, her BnB combo was made impossible, and her nair is no longer safe on shield against most characters because of range nerfs. But at least her upsmash is meh instead of useless and her two fair hits connect 30% of the time rather than 20%. Oh, they also removed all of her throw follow ups. I mean, holy ****. She is no longer Zero Suit, she's like... 3.5 ZSS: Shiek:: Pichu: Pikachu. There's just nothing that makes ZSS special and worth playing anymore. Not to mention, they nerfed her fun level like hell.

OH, AND IN CASE YOU FIGURED OUT HOW TO COMBO WITH DAIR INSTEAD OF NAIR THEY NERFED THAT TOO. Not to mention the dsmash nerfs! I mean, holy ****. I feel like she got hit worse than the top tiers.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Besides, mewtwo is still approximately the same character.

No.

Mewtwo really isnt.

You dont understand. You really dont. Mewtwo is now only slightly better than melee mewtwo.

MELEE MEWTWO.

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Mewtwo lost his best approach, recovery options, shield pressure, OoS, and some neutral tools. Along side having kill moves nerfed, and well, recovery in general.

Also spacing tools nerfed, and his down b? That thing that was rarely ever even touched to begin with? Nerfed.

 

[Frost | Odds]

OH, AND IN CASE YOU FIGURED OUT HOW TO COMBO WITH DAIR INSTEAD OF NAIR THEY NERFED THAT TOO. Not to mention the dsmash nerfs! I mean, holy ****. I feel like she got hit worse than the top tiers.

She also got Sheik's grab, so, I mean, it can't be all bad.

You dont understand. You really dont. Mewtwo is now only slightly better than melee mewtwo.

hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah

 

[DARKcpu0]

hahahahahahahahahahahaahahahahahahahah

DONT LAUGH AT MY SAL-PAIN.

Pfft salt what? I didnt *cough* say salt.

Salt on the ****ing wound maybe.

 

[Shell]

No.

Mewtwo really isnt.

You dont understand. You really dont. Mewtwo is now only slightly better than melee mewtwo.

MELEE MEWTWO.

DO YOU NOT UNDERSTAND?

Mewtwo lost his best approach, recovery options, shield pressure, OoS, and some neutral tools. Along side having kill moves nerfed, and well, recovery in general.

Also spacing tools nerfed, and his down b? That thing that was rarely ever even touched to begin with? Nerfed.

Mewtwo can still do hover approaches, which are smoother than ever due to the physics changes on hover. He can also still do burst range teleports into aerial attacks. He just has to choose between a more visually-telegraphed but safer hover approach vs a less telegraphed but ultimately more committed teleport approach. Having both invincible invisible burst range movement into attacks with unpunishable low land lag was just undeniably toxic (and as the person responsible for creating this I apologize) but separated into their components they're considerably more reasonable. Neither of these options were available in Melee, and I think that having those options in conjunction with all of his other move buffs/fixes puts him better than Melee by a pretty significant margin.

 

[Foo]

She also got Sheik's grab, so, I mean, it can't be all bad.

HA If only. It's smaller and has worse throws.

Either way, bottom line is, I wanna play 3.0 Zero Suit Samus. I wanna play that character. Nerf her numbers, tone **** down if you have to, I barely care. But right now I feel like my main got removed from the game.

 

[shairn]

Speaking of ZSS, wtf is up with these hitboxes

Spoiler

 

[Foo]

Speaking of ZSS, wtf is up with these hitboxes

Spoiler

Pretty sure they added in a bunch of vacuum hitboxes to make it not a useless move.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Nyehh ya damn scrub this thread ain't about being civil, it's about flamming about spacies and raging at people when you're proven wrong. It's all about coming onto Smashboards sayin yer a genius not to talk with other people, but just let people know yer da best. What's the matta witcho?

Nyehhhhh, who axedya anyways ya moron?

 

[Strong Badam]

Legit question for GnW players: What does your character do? What is his gameplan? How does he operate? What strengths does he possess? How does he approach his matches?

GnW is one the few characters I don't have any kind of feel for so I'd love to know. I know he's a paper-light heavy-hitter and that's it.

I lose neutral for minutes at a time and then grab or hit them with Dtilt while they're DIing badly and 0-death them.

 

[MonkUnit]

Speaking of ZSS, wtf is up with these hitboxes

Spoiler

Articles such as ZSS' whips don't work very well in debug mode which is why there is a cluster of hitboxes in debug for her usmash and nair.

 

[_Chrome]

I lose neutral for minutes at a time and then grab or hit them with Dtilt while they're DIing badly and 0-death them.

Yeah, my friend plays GnW and that's exactly how it is. He can punish really well, go in deep with grabs, d-tilts, u-tilts, and finish it with a smash, nair, or judgement lol. He's pretty fun to play as and against.