Tier List Speculation

[pkblaze]

So

Have I mentioned Ike is good

I think Ike is hella under-rated. I think he sorta gets pooped on by Falco cuz laser just entirely shuts down sideB(and then you basically have sword-ganon), but against wolf/fox I think he's godlike.

 

[_Chrome]

I just appreciate him for the role he plays. Kinda nice for someone with such decent range and power to still be reasonable with speed.

Classic beatdown character. He's so much fun to play against, and can be challenging, but I can't complain because he has his weaknesses. Such a well designed character.

''We like !''

 

[GP&B]

Ike's probably gonna be the same tier he was for 3.02.

Which is great because relatively speaking, he might as well be buffed in this version anyways.

 

[Anonistry]

I think Ike is hella under-rated. I think he sorta gets pooped on by Falco cuz laser just entirely shuts down sideB(and then you basically have sword-ganon).

Hey, honestly sword-ganon would still be a decent buff for Dorf, all other things being equal besides the probable range increase. You put aside any zoning issues and part of his other weaknesses come from having a notable divide between short and sweet or slow and better reach (or even short and slow.) Of course he has a couple of exceptions, but they don't cover all situations.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

Just for the record, while I don't play Falco my bro does, and he takes WAY more skill than Fox. Falco doesn't need to be nerfed ANYMORE. Except that blaster is damn annoying, those conversions doe. Not that it needs a nerf, he's made of glass.

In what ways? Falco, in Melee (idk for sure in PM) has always felt easy to use. His tech isn't particularly harder than Fox, he combos better imo, Dair is such an amazing finisher, and he's slower which means that you don't need to be crazy fast. Idk, maybe its my playstyle or my slow fingers (arthritis sucks...) but my Fox sucks in comparison. I consider my Falco good, I can use him well, but Fox is way too technical or fast for me. Falco has just always felt like the easy one and Fox the harder, albeit better, one.

But yeah, that could just be playstyles. Falco just meshes with how I like to play sooo well.

I will say that my PM Fox is better than my Melee Fox, which I've used more of in the latter.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think Ike is hella under-rated. I think he sorta gets pooped on by Falco cuz laser just entirely shuts down sideB(and then you basically have sword-ganon), but against wolf/fox I think he's godlike.

Uh, sort of.

People tend to think QD is mostly an approach/neutral tool. It's honestly more of a punish and frankly its best use is extending combos, covering options, tech chasing to a limited extent and of course edgeguarding/recovery.

When you look at it that way Ike doesn't lose anything that everybody else doesn't when fighting Falco lasers.

They do infuriate me though.

 

[pkblaze]

Hey, honestly sword-ganon would still be a decent buff for Dorf, all other things being equal besides the probable range increase. You put aside any zoning issues and part of his other weaknesses come from having a notable divide between short and sweet or slow and better reach (or even short and slow.) Of course he has a couple of exceptions, but they don't cover all situations.

For sure. Falco Ganon in Melee is like 80:20. Falco Ike is probably more like 60:40. if Ike = sword ganon I think that speaks well for the viability of sword ganon.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Fox's fsmash is actually better for edgeguarding than Falco's. the hitbox terminates 1 frame later so it can catch sweetspots when used near the edge. #themoreyouknow.

That's why I said fsma- *fsmash on my previous post - fsmash over upsmash. His fsmash is still incredibly viable. Makes up for the upsmash entirely. Like upsmash never got touched, almost.

 

[pkblaze]

People tend to think QD is mostly an approach/neutral tool. It's honestly more of a punish and frankly its best use is extending combos, covering options, tech chasing to a limited extent and of course edgeguarding/recovery.

When you look at it that way Ike doesn't lose anything that everybody else doesn't when fighting Falco lasers.

Huh. That does sound a lot better. How good is Ike's movement outside of QD though?

 

[Anonistry]

Uh, sort of.

People tend to think QD is mostly an approach/neutral tool. It's honestly more of a punish and frankly its best use is extending combos, covering options, tech chasing to a limited extent and of course edgeguarding/recovery.

When you look at it that way Ike doesn't lose anything that everybody else doesn't when fighting Falco lasers.

They do infuriate me though.

Oh yeah, its a classic "looks like approach but you will regret it for that" tool. Thats just too much recovery at the end, on top of everything else, for it to be good for blatant approach.

 

[Deleted member]

it's almost like a lot of (the most experienced) PM players also play Melee and have been playing Fox for a decade. it's almost like Fox is incredibly fun to play.

like we haven't been playing with the same peach for the same amount of time? the same jigglypuff, and samus? the same link and pikachu toolkits since 1999? stop hiding behind the meta development crap, this isn't 2002 where we're all solving the game individually. this is 2014 where we have streaming and youtube videos and huge skype groups dedicated to understanding the character. you think the mewtwo players didn't figure that character out in 9 months? come on now. fox wins a lot because it's ****ing fox.

 

[_Chrome]

In what ways? Falco, in Melee (idk for sure in PM) has always felt easy to use. His tech isn't particularly harder than Fox, he combos better imo, Dair is such an amazing finisher, and he's slower which means that you don't need to be crazy fast. Idk, maybe its my playstyle or my slow fingers (arthritis sucks...) but my Fox sucks in comparison. I consider my Falco good, I can use him well, but Fox is way too technical or fast for me. Falco has just always felt like the easy one and Fox the harder, albeit better, one.

But yeah, that could just be playstyles. Falco just meshes with how I like to play sooo well.

I will say that my PM Fox is better than my Melee Fox, which I've used more of in the latter.

IMO, Falco takes more game knowledge, spacing, and intelligence, whereas Fox takes crazy fingers.

 

[Anonistry]

You guys, if you keep it up with the Spacies I'm going to have to get ANOTHER popcorn gif. I'm not even sure if I ate all the last one up!

 

[KlefkiHolder]

IMO, Falco takes more game knowledge, spacing, and intelligence, whereas Fox takes crazy fingers.

Yeah I can agree to that. Maybe part of what I said stems from the fact that I respect the hell out of crazy fingers. But yeah I can agree with you in that regard. Fox imo takes more tech skill while Falco takes more straight up skill.

I will also say that my Melee Falco is better than my PM Falco.

 

[pkblaze]

Guys my melee falco is better than my PM falco too.

My PM fox might be better though cuz I can't JC upsmash for **** lol.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Huh. That does sound a lot better. How good is Ike's movement outside of QD though?

Good DD, more than usable even in PM. Good wavedash. Great air mobility and godlike SHFFL. I legitimately cannot play characters with poor SHFFL games because Ike spoiled me on it.

Facol-Ike is no that different from Faocl-Marth. Ike's ability to go extra deep doesn't even matter because Foalc is dead at those distances anyway. Ike has a harder time because of higher start-up on moves and lacking even the few situational OoS options that Marth has, but his consistent KO power makes it easier for him to finish stocks and his vertical combo/juggle game is maybe even better than Marths and can really bone Olfac. 50-50.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

like we haven't been playing with the same peach for the same amount of time? the same jigglypuff, and samus? the same link and pikachu toolkits since 1999? stop hiding behind the meta development crap, this isn't 2002 where we're all solving the game individually. this is 2014 where we have streaming and youtube videos and huge skype groups dedicated to understanding the character. you think the mewtwo players didn't figure that character out in 9 months? come on now. fox wins a lot because it's ****ing fox.

theorycraft =/= time spent grinding with a character. mewtwo is amazing in 3.02 and has insane matchups vs. fastfallers and solid MUs vs. everyone else. so why didn't we see him shut down every Fox and present way more of a bracket threat? IMO it has to do with needing a lot of conditioning and experience to play a character optimally. There are tons of players with tons of Fox experience and excellent game sense already - probably the same reason Marth is so highly represented in P:M. But nobody claims marth is anything more than high-mid or the lowest end of high tier.

 

[_Chrome]

You guys, if you keep it up with the Spacies I'm going to have to get ANOTHER popcorn gif. I'm not even sure if I ate all the last one up!

You could try some potato chips, maybe Kirby will share:

 

[Avro-Arrow]

In what ways? Falco, in Melee (idk for sure in PM) has always felt easy to use. His tech isn't particularly harder than Fox, he combos better imo, Dair is such an amazing finisher, and he's slower which means that you don't need to be crazy fast. Idk, maybe its my playstyle or my slow fingers (arthritis sucks...) but my Fox sucks in comparison. I consider my Falco good, I can use him well, but Fox is way too technical or fast for me. Falco has just always felt like the easy one and Fox the harder, albeit better, one.

But yeah, that could just be playstyles. Falco just meshes with how I like to play sooo well.

I will say that my PM Fox is better than my Melee Fox, which I've used more of in the latter.

I started with Falco in Melee when I chose spacies. He was a lot easier to pick up. It was simple to combo other characters, especially my brother _Chrome who was using Link. LOL. Anyhow, I also picked up Fox because I like playing as many characters as I can because it's like a whole new experience. I found that Fox's nair spams and shines into, well, anything (not literally, but you know) took no predictions or spacing (ie nair planing). They worked really well. That's not to say that Falco's dair spams weren't easy. But I can definitely see how Fox would be hard for someone with Arthritis. I don't have particularly fast hands myself; I can't really get any height off of Mario's down b if I spam it.

All in all, they're both pretty really easy, but I guess Falco has to (maybe) be a bit more cautious in approaching because he isn't all too fast, and that's where my brother is coming from.

It comes down to preference.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

You could try some potato chips, maybe Kirby will share:

Yeah, right.

 

[_Chrome]

I started with Falco in Melee when I chose spacies. He was a lot easier to pick up. It was simple to combo other characters, especially my brother _Chrome who was using Link. LOL. Anyhow, I also picked up Fox because I like playing as many characters as I can because it's like a whole new experience. I found that Fox's nair spams and shines into, well, anything (not literally, but you know) took no predictions or spacing (ie nair planing). They worked really well. That's not to say that Falco's dair spams weren't easy. But I can definitely see how Fox would be hard for someone with Arthritis. I don't have particularly fast hands myself; I can't really get any height off of Mario's down b if I spam it.

All in all, they're both pretty really easy, but I guess Falco has to (maybe) be a bit more cautious in approaching because he isn't all too fast, and that's where my brother is coming from.

It comes down to preference.

Lol my Link will still smack your Falco Flaco in any game, rang or no rang.

 

[Deleted member]

theorycraft =/= time spent grinding with a character. mewtwo is amazing in 3.02 and has insane matchups vs. fastfallers and solid MUs vs. everyone else. so why didn't we see him shut down every Fox and present way more of a bracket threat? IMO it has to do with needing a lot of conditioning and experience to play a character optimally. There are tons of players with tons of Fox experience and excellent game sense already - probably the same reason Marth is so highly represented in P:M. But nobody claims marth is anything more than high-mid or the lowest end of high tier.

have you considered that the mewtwo players didn't beat all the foxes because they're BOTH good? maybe marth isn't rated highly because he's not actually that good? have you considered that everyone around you might even be right about fox??

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Falco's combos are more hype too. They're crazy, whereas Fox's are more like "rinse n' repeat."

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Lol my link will still smack you in any game, rang or no rang.

And then



Sheik

 

[_Chrome]

Falco's combos are more hype too. They're crazy, whereas Fox's are more like "rinse n' repeat."

See the Falco handbook, page 4 subsection 7:
Shine->dair, shine->dair, continue until you get to the edge.

 

[_Chrome]

And then



Sheik

o.0 ^^ This

 

[Avro-Arrow]

See the Falco handbook, page 4 subsection 7:
Shine->dair, shine->dair, continue until you get to the edge.

Lol. 3.0 Ness

PK FYRRE! Rockin. PK FYRRE!

Then your scrubby dtilt fsmash attempt. LOLOL

Even still, your Ness is pretty OK

No hate

 

[_Chrome]

Lol. 3.0 Ness

PK FYRRE! Rockin. PK FYRRE!

Then your scrubby dtilt fsmash attempt. LOLOL

Even still, your Ness is pretty OK

No hate

 

[Avro-Arrow]

^ This

 

[didds]

my brain is on fire from this thread, I'll be back when everyone has chilled a bit

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

... eh?

This is the most civil argument I've seen in this thread

 

[_Chrome]

... eh?

This is the most civil argument I've seen in this thread

We're sitting next to each other and we're twins, so we're just joshing each other.

 

[Anonistry]

... eh?

This is the most civil argument I've seen in this thread

So how long until the drive by arguments?

 

[Avro-Arrow]

... eh?

This is the most civil argument I've seen in this thread

Why thank you, good sir. I'm no filthy commoner, unlike some scrubs. It's refreshing to converse with such refined gentlemen.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Or would you rather me go Brooklyn rage?

NYEH!

 

[_Chrome]

Why thank you, good sir. I'm no filthy commoner, unlike some scrubs. It's refreshing to converse with such refined gentlemen.

Nyehh ya damn scrub this thread ain't about being civil, it's about flamming about spacies and raging at people when you're proven wrong. It's all about coming onto Smashboards sayin yer a genius not to talk with other people, but just let people know yer da best. What's the matta witcho?

 

[DARKcpu0]

I just came to a very ****ing stupid conclusion, that makes no sense that has logic among the lines of Illuminati confirmed.
Read if you like, more salt than the pacific ocean.

So lets see the damages between Mewtwo and Fox.
They both had decent neutral b's that had great space control.

Beautiful aerials that are great for combo game, gimping, and even kill moves.

Combo extending specials that act as projectile killers.

Linear recoveries that can even be utilized as combo extenders (If you're that much of a nut with fox, or feel like being disrespectful like I do) and even act as ledgestalls.

Smashes that act as pretty decent kill moves, and get decent range.

Tilts that can extend and start combos.

Grabs. That are great.

A killer down special.

Mewtwo gets his neutral b nerfed, some of his aerials and tilts nerfed, his grab range nerfed, his up special nerfed in like 4 different ways, his down special nerfed.

Fox gets more like melee besides his upsmash, which is just, PAL.

Seems legit.

No one reply to this. No one quote this. Its stupid. I couldn't resist.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Or would you rather me go Brooklyn rage?

NYEH!

BTW never use internet explorer. I had to switch to Firefox to put this bad boy up.

 

[DARKcpu0]

BTW never use internet explorer.

Welcome to the ****ing internet.

Would you like a free ipad? :D

 

[Circle_Breaker]

OK, to be reasonable I have to admit that Fox is probably too good. In the 3.02 context it was par for the S-tier course but still, too good to be fair design. I really don't like people talking about taking away shine or brutally nerfing offensive options when more reasonable balance is just nerfing their recoveries. Any character in Melee that does okay against the spacies does so by totally destroying them once they're offstage, and in my opinion that is fun and good design. I play peach and falco and enjoy playing against fox as either one of them. Making spacies even worse offstage is fine, having tons of CG's against them is fine; they deserve to die off of one good read.

BTW ridiculous NTSC U-smash isn't an offensive "option" because you still use it in basically all the same places as PAL u-smash, it's just jarringly and disproportionately good. I support all PAL changes to Fox 100%.