Tier List Speculation

[Avro-Arrow]

Welcome to the ****ing internet.

Would you like a free ipad? :D

Maybe

Could I have a cookie instead?

 

[Player -0]

Can you cut back on the double posting? Also if it's not that relevant to the sharing of salt then you guys can talk in person? It's already kind of hard to find stuff I can learn about.

Sorry but there's been 20 minutes/quarter of a page of banter pretty much JUST between the two of you.

 

[_Chrome]

Can you cut back on the double posting? Also if it's not that relevant to the sharing of salt then you guys can talk in person? It's already kind of hard to find stuff I can learn about.

Sorry but there's been 20 minutes/quarter of a page of banter pretty much JUST between the two of you.

Yeah sorry, what the topic is supposed to be right now is about how Fox and Falco fit in the meta, and we discussed Ike for a while too.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Yeah sorry, what the topic is supposed to be right now is about how Fox and Falco fit in the meta, and we discussed Ike for a while too.

Falco is fine.

Ike is fine. His tilts come out a bit fast in my opinion but I don't really mind. He needs it.

Fox? OHOHO.

Also someone noted something on just getting spacies off stage and destroying them and nerfing their recoveries and what not.

I'm ok with this,

But as a 3.02 and 3.5 Mewtwo main, approaching spacies is now more a pain than ever.

I lost the only "safe" approach I had on the guy, and now have a harder time controlling space with slower and smaller shadow balls.

Quotes around safe because the approach is the easiest thing on the planet to read, avoid, and punish.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Can you cut back on the double posting? Also if it's not that relevant to the sharing of salt then you guys can talk in person? It's already kind of hard to find stuff I can learn about.

Sorry but there's been 20 minutes/quarter of a page of banter pretty much JUST between the two of you.

NYEH alright. What would you prefer to talk about then?

I think the balance is pretty good. The spacies are still a little OP though.

 

[_Chrome]

Falco is fine.

Ike is fine. His tilts come out a bit fast in my opinion but I don't really mind. He needs it.

Fox? OHOHO.

Also someone noted something on just getting spacies off stage and destroying them and nerfing their recoveries and what not.

I'm ok with this,

But as a 3.02 and 3.5 Mewtwo main, approaching spacies is now more a pain than ever.

I lost the only "safe" approach I had on the guy, and now have a harder time controlling space with slower and smaller shadow balls.

Quotes around safe because the approach is the easiest thing on the planet to read, avoid, and punish.

I don't want to flame, but Mewtwo was broken and needed to be nerfed. We'll see how poorly he does this version, and the PMDT will hear us and update again. I tried him out and he does feel much weaker. Still strong, but much weaker. Maybe they wanted him to be more defensive now, but we'l see how that particular nerf goes.

EDIT: Btw you're right about Ike, Falco, and Fox 100%

 

[Player -0]

Can't M2 still so Bair shenanigans but with teleport cancels now? You just have to play like a more derpy Jiggz now. Idk, might check the hurtboxes on tail later, forgot if they're there or not.

I'm thinking of just how good Samus is right now, you can edgeguard with missiles and bombs. You can camp, use Zair to not get rushdowned too badly, Nair/Screw Attack is still an amazing GTFO move. Her recovery is still great too.


Also that ZSS grab animation being pretty much the same as Peach's, lelel.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Falco is fine.

Ike is fine. His tilts come out a bit fast in my opinion but I don't really mind. He needs it.

Fox? OHOHO.

Also someone noted something on just getting spacies off stage and destroying them and nerfing their recoveries and what not.

I'm ok with this,

But as a 3.02 and 3.5 Mewtwo main, approaching spacies is now more a pain than ever.

I lost the only "safe" approach I had on the guy, and now have a harder time controlling space with slower and smaller shadow balls.

Quotes around safe because the approach is the easiest thing on the planet to read, avoid, and punish.

Mewtwo was WAY too much in 3.02. WAY WAY WAYYYY too much. Ahem. I suppose that salt should have been put on roadways in the Yukon, but whatever. But seriously. Mewtwo is (was?) top tier. I haven't played against him yet.

BTW, Ike is definitely balanced, and very fun. I just made a thread about him in teams in the Ike character discussion about him in teams. Top tier maybe?

On another note, Sonic's nerfs are fair. The nerfs got rid of his excessive recovery and combos, but kept the essence of the character intact. I applaud the PMBR for what they did to Sonic. While he wasn't OP before, they balanced him even better.

 

[Fortress]

@ Fortress look what you've done to me.

I don't get what you mean.

I'm pretty much 100% fine with where the entire roster ended up. I haven't had the opportunity to play against Pit yet, so, I'm not sure if he's still lame-tier, joke-grade garbage, but playing with him myself I'm feeling optimistic.

 

[_Chrome]

Can't M2 still so Bair shenanigans but with teleport cancels now? You just have to play like a more derpy Jiggz now. Idk, might check the hurtboxes on tail later, forgot if they're there or not.

I'm thinking of just how good Samus is right now, you can edgeguard with missiles and bombs. You can camp, use Zair to not get rushdowned too badly, Nair/Screw Attack is still an amazing GTFO move. Her recovery is still great too.


Also that ZSS grab animation being pretty much the same as Peach's, lelel.

I personally think Samus is the strongest character this version, but we'll see how it plays out, 3.5 did just come out.

 

[DARKcpu0]

I don't want to flame, but Mewtwo was broken and needed to be nerfed. We'll see how poorly he does this version, and the PMDT will hear us and update again. I tried him out and he does feel much weaker. Still strong, but much weaker. Maybe they wanted him to be more defensive now, but we'l see how that particular nerf goes.

EDIT: Btw you're right about Ike, Falco, and Fox 100%

I know Mewtwo was pretty dumb, but can we atleast agree that he got over nerfed? Like ****.

All they had to do was fix up b, and they almost did, but then they killed spacing and a pretty great move that acts as a combo starter and kill move.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Can't M2 still so Bair shenanigans but with teleport cancels now? You just have to play like a more derpy Jiggz now. Idk, might check the hurtboxes on tail later, forgot if they're there or not.

I'm thinking of just how good Samus is right now, you can edgeguard with missiles and bombs. You can camp, use Zair to not get rushdowned too badly, Nair/Screw Attack is still an amazing GTFO move. Her recovery is still great too.


Also that ZSS grab animation being pretty much the same as Peach's, lelel.

I thought Samus was top tier in 3.02. And now that others have been nerfed, like Diddy Kong, Mewtwo, Pit and Lucas, she's better by comparison. Her nerfs are comparatively lesser than those of other characters. She is very good; you are right.

 

[_Chrome]

I know Mewtwo was pretty dumb, but can we atleast agree that he got over nerfed? Like ****.

All they had to do was fix up b, and they almost did, but then they killed spacing and a pretty great move that acts as a combo starter and kill move.

The tail was too much as well. Only half of his tail had hurtboxes on it, and the teleport (while SO awesome) was way broken. I tried him out, he may be overnerfed, but I have only played one game with him thus far in 3.5.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Can't M2 still so Bair shenanigans but with teleport cancels now?

I think the range got nerfed on Bair, and pretty sure hurtboxes are in there. Bair is still pretty viable, but not the greatest tool for approaching. I mean yeah its a good gimping tool, but the hell is mewtwo gonna do in the neutral?

Mewtwo was WAY too much in 3.02. WAY WAY WAYYYY too much.

I know ;-;
Itwasbeautiful

OHOHO. WAS. VERY MUCH WAS. VEEERRRYYY MUCH.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I know Mewtwo was pretty dumb, but can we atleast agree that he got over nerfed? Like ****.

All they had to do was fix up b, and they almost did, but then they killed spacing and a pretty great move that acts as a combo starter and kill move.

Nair could have been nerfed, and the tail length. But losing the jump after teleport? Idk :/ Lost what made him special. The teleport could have a little end lag on it to compensate? Also, his grab range was too much. Rolling behind him was useless.

As i said, I don't have any experience against him this format, so take my posts with a grain of salt. I still have some residual salt from 3.02, so you can take some of that.

 

[DARKcpu0]

The tail was too much as well. Only half of his tail had hurtboxes on it, and the teleport (while SO awesome) was way broken. I tried him out, he may be overnerfed, but I have only played one game with him thus far in 3.5.

I can admit tail was pretty jank. There might be hurtboxes on the full tail, might. Not too sure.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

The tail was too much as well. Only half of his tail had hurtboxes on it, and the teleport (while SO awesome) was way broken. I tried him out, he may be overnerfed, but I have only played one game with him thus far in 3.5.

He's right about the tail.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

I can admit tail was pretty jank. There might be hurtboxes on the full tail, might. Not too sure.

I don't think there are. I didn't see it on the list of changes.

 

[_Chrome]

I can admit tail was pretty jank. There might be hurtboxes on the full tail, might. Not too sure.

In 3.5? Before it was only half.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Nair could have been nerfed, and the tail length. But losing the jump after teleport? Idk :/ Lost what made him special. The teleport could have a little end lag on it to compensate? Also, his grab range was too much. Rolling behind him was useless.

As i said, I don't have any experience against him this format, so take my posts with a grain of salt. I still have some residual salt from 3.02, so you can take some of that.

Said it just a few moments ago, admittedly, Tail is jank.

Nair being nerfed? Nah. Its a pretty fair move. Few characters have a nair like that. Also a dair, looking at you fox. Or a uair, Samus.

Grab range I can understand. No booty grab, but I'm pretty alright with that. Never really got booty grabs anyways.

They made teleport telegraph where it would be 5 frames before it shows up, eat double jump to act out, no acting out if a double jump is used (sometimes, I've noted a little blip to this plenty). Its alot to lose. That's a loss in gimp, safe recovery, safe approach. Kill options even.

Especially safe recovery with the new ledge mechanics, given that mewtwo doesnt always snap to ledge anymore.

He's weird with it.

 

[pkblaze]

So to everybody who said "spacies are probably S tier ATM."

Falco is not S tier atm, and I think most of us agree on this. Fox probably still is, although he might not necessarily be #1.

Wolf I disagree with being S tier. Wolf in my eyes is a spacey that trades the priority of his hitboxes for better followups off of his stuff. He can't just run in and nairshine you like fox cuz his aerials are all either too slow or are his nair. Don't get me wrong, Wolf nair is great, but lacks the range or priority of Fox/Falco sex kick nair, so it's good for different reasons. His dair is essentially a Falcon stomp, his other decent aerials are also too slow to safely do falco/fox dair/nair shine style of approaches, atleast not with the same safety.

So basically I think he's got a good amount of mixups, but the absolute power/safety of his options < the absolute power of fox's options, atleast in the neutral game.

He ****s on everybody in the punish game though so it's not like he gets totally screwed. It's just that I think what makes S tier characters S tier is how safe their neutral game is compared to other characters. Wolf doesn't fit that bill IMO.

 

[DARKcpu0]

So to everybody who said "spacies are probably S tier ATM."

Falco is not S tier atm, and I think most of us agree on this. Fox probably still is, although he might not necessarily be #1.

Wolf I disagree with being S tier. Wolf in my eyes is a spacey that trades the priority of his hitboxes for better followups off of his stuff. He can't just run in and nairshine you like fox cuz his aerials are all either too slow or are his nair. Don't get me wrong, Wolf nair is great, but lacks the range or priority of Fox/Falco sex kick nair, so it's good for different reasons. His dair is essentially a Falcon stomp, his other decent aerials are also too slow to safely do falco/fox dair/nair shine style of approaches, atleast not with the same safety.

So basically I think he's got a good amount of mixups, but the absolute power/safety of his options < the absolute power of fox's options, atleast in the neutral game.

He ****s on everybody in the punish game though so it's not like he gets totally screwed. It's just that I think what makes S tier characters S tier is how safe their neutral game is compared to other characters. Wolf doesn't fit that bill IMO.

We all pretty much concluded Falco is fine where he is, and definetely isnt S tier.

Not sure where wolf stands. I don't touch him.

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Said it just a few moments ago, admittedly, Tail is jank.

Nair being nerfed? Nah. Its a pretty fair move. Few characters have a nair like that. Also a dair, looking at you fox. Or a uair, Samus.

Grab range I can understand. No booty grab, but I'm pretty alright with that. Never really got booty grabs anyways.

They made teleport telegraph where it would be 5 frames before it shows up, eat double jump to act out, no acting out if a double jump is used (sometimes, I've noted a little blip to this plenty). Its alot to lose. That's a loss in gimp, safe recovery, safe approach. Kill options even.

Especially safe recovery with the new ledge mechanics, given that mewtwo doesnt always snap to ledge anymore.

He's weird with it.

Ehhh, the disjoint was annoying; it pulled you into it and beat out a lot of moves. Fyi, Samus' uair was nerfed this update (=melee), although it's still good. And thanks for clearing up his teleport. So it's either jump or attack then?

 

[steelguttey]

is this the ****ing pm social thread why are there so many posts so fast

 

[Avro-Arrow]

So to everybody who said "spacies are probably S tier ATM."

Falco is not S tier atm, and I think most of us agree on this. Fox probably still is, although he might not necessarily be #1.

Wolf I disagree with being S tier. Wolf in my eyes is a spacey that trades the priority of his hitboxes for better followups off of his stuff. He can't just run in and nairshine you like fox cuz his aerials are all either too slow or are his nair. Don't get me wrong, Wolf nair is great, but lacks the range or priority of Fox/Falco sex kick nair, so it's good for different reasons. His dair is essentially a Falcon stomp, his other decent aerials are also too slow to safely do falco/fox dair/nair shine style of approaches, atleast not with the same safety.

So basically I think he's got a good amount of mixups, but the absolute power/safety of his options < the absolute power of fox's options, atleast in the neutral game.

He ****s on everybody in the punish game though so it's not like he gets totally screwed. It's just that I think what makes S tier characters S tier is how safe their neutral game is compared to other characters. Wolf doesn't fit that bill IMO.

You're right about Wolf

 

[DARKcpu0]

Ehhh, the disjoint was annoying; it pulled you into it and beat out a lot of moves. Fyi, Samus' uair was nerfed this update (=melee), although it's still good. And thanks for clearing up his teleport. So it's either jump or attack then?

Given that alot of mewtwo's moves are probably fully jointed now if not all, I think the nair is very much justified.

And yeah. Its either float then teleport into recover, jump then teleport into recovery, or turn off tap jump because you're always going to waste your jump doing up b midair and attack. *sigh* Atleast up b covers half of the PM green hill zone,

which isnt very large.

 

[Player -0]

Wolf still has his laser which can be cancelled by airdodge and then followed up with. He gets more off grabs than the other two spacies (Not as guaranteed I supposed for Fox).

 

[Avro-Arrow]

Given that alot of mewtwo's moves are probably fully jointed now if not all, I think the nair is very much justified.

And yeah. Its either float then teleport into recover, jump then teleport into recovery, or turn off tap jump because you're always going to waste your jump doing up b midair and attack. *sigh* Atleast up b covers half of the PM green hill zone,

which isnt very large.

So the teleport eats the jump every time? That does suck

 

[pkblaze]

Wolf still has his laser which can be cancelled by airdodge and then followed up with. He gets more off grabs than the other two spacies (Not as guaranteed I supposed for Fox).

I think his laser is buffed in 3.5 TBH. At the very least is translates better to how Falco uses lasers.

Fox gets upthrow bair and upthrow upair, and on spacies he has chaingrabs. Those are nice. Upair gets SDI'd though.

Wolf's throws lend themselves far better to techchasing a wide variety of weight classes(Wider than what Fox can consistently upthrow upair). Also DI traps into side-B, while they might be harder to execute, have counterplay on the DI rather than the SDI, and it's fundamentally/technically easier to cover DI that cover SDI, atleast in my opinion.

TL;DR: Wolf air wobbles you into a dash-rest, and he regains action-ability if he lands said dash-rest.

 

[Anonistry]

So the teleport eats the jump every time? That does suck

That seems to be the case from the simple testing I did with it.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Welp, you can act out of teleport after using the 2nd jump,

WITHIN 5 FRAMES OF THE 2ND JUMP BEING USED.

THAT IS A PRETTY SMALL WINDOW TO WORK WITH.

THE SLIGHTEST DELAY ON B AFTER UP AND WWOOOOPPPSSSS

I'm sorry. I could give the gout with how much salt I have pent up.

 

[Anonistry]

Welp, you can act out of teleport after using the 2nd jump,

WITHIN 5 FRAMES OF THE 2ND JUMP BEING USED.

THAT IS A PRETTY SMALL WINDOW TO WORK WITH.

THE SLIGHTEST DELAY ON B AFTER UP AND WWOOOOPPPSSSS

I'm sorry. I could give the gout with how much salt I have pent up.

That's a jab in Street Fighter, let alone Smash...

 

[DARKcpu0]

That's a jab in Street Fighter, let alone Smash...

Mewtwo's active hitboxes for jab are 3.
Tilts usually follow the same. Maybe 4 or 5.

 

[Cpt.]

I don't want to flame, but Mewtwo was broken and needed to be nerfed. We'll see how poorly he does this version, and the PMDT will hear us and update again. I tried him out and he does feel much weaker. Still strong, but much weaker. Maybe they wanted him to be more defensive now, but we'l see how that particular nerf goes.

EDIT: Btw you're right about Ike, Falco, and Fox 100%

I don't see why they had to nerf more than his up B. Sure his tail was a little long, but if you can't use it out of teleport, then it isn't as good anyways.

 

[DARKcpu0]

That's a jab in Street Fighter, let alone Smash...

Further testing,

The window isnt 5 frames.

Its 2.

2

****ING TWO.

ON THE THIRD FRAME OF THE DOUBLE JUMP, YOU HAVE TO BE ON FRAME (Iunno 0-1? The first frame nontheless) TO GET ACT OUT WITH TAPJUMP.

SAAAALLLLLTTTT

 

[_Chrome]

Further testing,

The window isnt 5 frames.

Its 2.

2

****ING TWO.

ON THE THIRD FRAME OF THE DOUBLE JUMP, YOU HAVE TO BE ON FRAME (Iunno 0-1? The first frame nontheless) TO GET ACT OUT WITH TAPJUMP.

SAAAALLLLLTTTT

For acting out of M2's teleport?

 

[DARKcpu0]

For acting out of M2's teleport?

Acting out of mewtwo's teleport with tapjump whilst using the 2nd jump, yes.

2 frames. If you havent pressed up b by frame 3 of mewtwo's 2nd jump animation, recovery frames.

 

[pkblaze]

Acting out of mewtwo's teleport with tapjump whilst using the 2nd jump, yes.

2 frames. If you havent pressed up b by frame 3 of mewtwo's 2nd jump animation, recovery frames.

Can't you just tilt b?

 

[shairn]

Either turn off tap jump, buffer the direction or get really good at it.
Anyway 2 frames is pretty lax.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Either turn off tap jump, buffer the direction or get really good at it.
Anyway 2 frames is pretty lax.

Lol up to this point I'm just picking at anything I can for the guy. 2 frames aint ****. Das baby food.

Tap jump off just, feels weird for me. I'd never do it. Besides. Helps with DJC.

Still a pretty small window to work with. If his teleport is already wack, atleast give the guy a slightly larger window. I mean cmon. There is a 3 frame window before you have to press jump to jump out of float on frame 4 of it.