Tier List Speculation

[Circle_Breaker]

People in general tend to suck vs projectiles. Sheik needles in melee **** on marth harder than falco lasers. Powershielding is hard but running shield and WD OoS are enough to maintain mobility vs many projectile based characters.

yeah I don't really think many of the people who complain endlessly about fox/falco even really keep up with the top level melee meta. I mean, peach even peach arguably goes even with falco. their edge is very minor. Fox should be PAL fox but Falco doesn't really need nerfs when every other character gets buffs. especially with how terribly he's been hit by engine changes.

 

[pkblaze]

Peach Falco is even IMO unless Falco camps top plat like Westballz. I personally think it's an incredibly unfun matchup but I know that's cuz IDK how to combo peach very well, so I just shoot hella lasers and hope she doesn't successfully trade with me.

Falco in PM is definitely worse (Movement, upthrow, no longer upB but now dair) while peach is a little better. The matchup probably is slightly in Peach's favor if you thought it was even, and even if you thought Falco won.

Without camping top platform Falco has to interact to win. Fox can camp harder than Falco imo. I get that people have a hardon for nerfing spacies, but Falco's already at the point where I'm strongly considering switching to Wolf.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Falco's the worst spacy now. I've actually very much convinced he needs no more nerfs.

It's the other one.

 

[TTTTTsd]

Falco does not need more nerfs good LORD no! He was already the worst spacey of the three (in this game) and even with his Up+B finally not being TOTAL trash, he's still like, above average at best IMO. Don't get me wrong still a solid character but nerfing him is the least of anyone's worries. I think he's in a fair spot right now.

I don't play Fox, I can't discuss him, but good lord leave Falco alone, I think he's fine right now....

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I feel like half the P:M players are on, like, a spacy witch hunt cause people were upset about their favorite nintendo character comparatively sucking in melee. That would be fine if space animals had shown any evidence that they would be similarly dominant in PM so far, but they really haven't. fox does okay but he has an incredibly developed meta already and several good players who have tons of fox experience from melee will obviously be able to rep him well. a lot more characters can do what marth did to the spacies in melee now, though - go even with them through hard punishes and excellent tools against FFers, as well as simply spacing them out by being safe and exploiting their relative lack of disjoint. no need to crap on them further with nerfs. like I've already said, give Fox the PAL treatment. Other than that, they should be melee ports. tested and proven to be excellent, interactive characters with lots of variety in their MU gameplans.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I feel like half the P:M players are on, like, a spacy witch hunt cause people were upset about their favorite nintendo character comparatively sucking in melee. That would be fine if space animals had shown any evidence that they would be similarly dominant in PM so far, but they really haven't.

I really hate when people say this.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams

 

[Circle_Breaker]

I really hate when people say this.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams

it's almost like a lot of (the most experienced) PM players also play Melee and have been playing Fox for a decade. it's almost like Fox is incredibly fun to play.

seriously let's give it some time. I see there that he's the most-used character but not by much. there's a ton of characters underneath him only slightly less used.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

it's almost like a lot of (the most experienced) PM players also play Melee and have been playing Fox for a decade. it's almost like Fox is incredibly fun to play.

seriously let's give it some time.

You make argument.

I explain argument is lie.

You justify argument.

Your argument is still a goddamn lie and that point doesn't hold anymore.

Whatever your ****ing reasons, your theorycraft of Fox not being dominant in PM is complete and utter bull****.

You don't get to say that Fox isn't dominant in PM while explaining *why* he is.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

You make argument.

I explain argument is lie.

You justify argument.

Your argument is still a goddamn lie and that point doesn't hold anymore.

Whatever your ****ing reasons, your theorycraft of Fox not being dominant in PM is complete and utter bull****.

You don't get to say that Fox isn't dominant in PM while explaining *why* he is.

"dominance" is being ever-so-slightly the most highly represented? dude you never proved dominance. those statistics aren't dominance. those statistics show that he is the top in terms of bracket placings, but it's really not by much, and there's great evidence to suggest that there are other factors at work other than FOX IS SO BROKEN OWNS EVERYONE PLS NERF.

I mean for ****s sake according to those stats Lucas is fine and needed no changes. unless they're totally overwhelmingly slanted tourney results can't be said to account for as much as you are claiming.

Anyways we don't even really disagree as much as it seems. Fox does have a couple stupid design elements. Why does his recovery go so far? Why does his upsmash kill floaties at 60%? but does this really mean he's broken? and why does this mean that Falco's long-lasting spike is toxic?

 

[FlamingForce]

Why does jab lead to usmash ;______;

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

"dominance" is being ever-so-slightly the most highly represented? dude you never proved dominance. those statistics aren't dominance. those statistics show that he is the top in terms of bracket placings, but it's really not by much, and there's great evidence to suggest that there are other factors at work other than FOX IS SO BROKEN OWNS EVERYONE PLS NERF.

Anyways we don't even really disagree as much as it seems. Fox does have a couple stupid design elements. Why does his recovery go so far? Why does his upsmash kill floaties at 60%? but does this really mean he's broken? and why does this mean that Falco's long-lasting spike is toxic?

"Broken" has lost all meaning around these parts. "Badly designed" is what I go with nowadays. Short answer to your questions is that Fox never has to alter his gameplan too much, he can keep doing Fox things and he doesn't even have a losing MU for it, just games in which his opponent can punish him as hard as he already punishes everyone. The universal applicability swiss-army-knife-ness of his toolkit is what makes him require weaknesses as glaring as Falco's. He's too broad and too safe as is.

Falco's long-lasting spike was toxic for the same reason that 3.02 Mewtwo's tail and Ragnell in 2.1 was. More thoughtless play, less need to space, less need for precision. Falco does well in PAL still. In PM NTSC dair gives him insane punish on top of being able to asphyxiate neutral and dictate the match with lasers. One of the two had to be toned down.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

I really hate when people say this.

http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m/league/teams

Your source is completely empirical and can therefore be caused by other influences, which might or might not include:
- Melee players playing "their" characters
- Metagame is more advanced
- Matchups play more similar

I'm not saying your statement is false, but that is not a good way to argue for it in my opinion.

 

[pkblaze]

Falco does not need more nerfs good LORD no! He was already the worst spacey of the three (in this game) and even with his Up+B finally not being TOTAL trash, he's still like, above average at best IMO. Don't get me wrong still a solid character but nerfing him is the least of anyone's worries. I think he's in a fair spot right now.

I don't play Fox, I can't discuss him, but good lord leave Falco alone, I think he's fine right now....

IMO Falco's issues right now are: Movement, upthrow, and worse dair. revert/fix any 2 of these and I will play him over Wolf, no question.

IMO Fox's issue is that he's too cannon and not enough glass. Falco's issue in PM is that he's hella glass and losing cannon. Solution: Give Fox more glass or less cannon.

 

[_Chrome]

Now I may sound like a noob, but hear me out. Why do people complain about the spacies so much? I understand that Fox's usmash is pretty broken, and that he out-maneuvers just about every character, while Falco has the blaster and his pillar combos. So why don't we just nerf Fox's usmash, seeing as Falco's spike was just nerfed? I don't really play either of these characters, but why don't we see how it goes from there? I believe by implementing, small, gradual nerfs that the game will be more fun and competitive.

 

[pkblaze]

So why don't we just nerf Fox's usmash, seeing as Falco's spike was just nerfed? I don't really play either of these characters, but why don't we see how it goes from there? I believe by implementing, small, gradual nerfs that the game will be more fun and competitive.

We just did. He has PAL upsmash now.

Edit: this is people saying "nerf spacies MOAR!" around 2 days after the patch. IDK, I think spacies witch hunt is kind of real.

 

[_Chrome]

We just did. He has PAL upsmash now.

He does?!? I must forgot (even though I just read the patch notes this morning), I have a concussion. Sorry. So why do people still complain then?

 

[FlamingForce]

I am consistently amazed at the way people complain about Falco's PAL dair.
Must be cos I'm used to PAL or something but good lord lol, all you gotta do is think a little about when you throw it out to ensure the right hitbox, it's not difficult.

 

[Anonistry]

My impression is that they have always been space control (heh) monsters, moreso in Melee where the PMDT didn't have the luxury to realize that this is such a huge part of this game (or any fighteresque game, really.) They are quick, have good normals, their blasters generally are a decent zoning and control tool, their recoveries are effective, and their shines are pretty much the Shoryuken of Smash Bros, doing everything you need all in one convenient move (with less danger than usually entails an SRK.) Then to top it off they STILL can rack quick, good damage... yeah. That premise is broken in ANY fighting game.

How true it ACTUALLY is now I couldn't say. The taste they left in mouths will linger well past any actual factuality of the taste, I can promise you that much.

 

[pkblaze]

He does?!? I must forgot (even though I just read the patch notes this morning), I have a concussion. Sorry. So why do people still complain then?

That sucks. You should get some rest/be off the internet cuz isn't screen time bad when you have a concussion?

And people complain for the same reason they always complain: Salt. I'm ******** about Falco cuz I'm salty about how bad he feels in PM. Lordling complains about spacies cuz he's salty and wants them nerfed to the ground. Most complaints on this thread are motivated by salt and not rational thought.

 

[KlefkiHolder]

As a Falco main I think Dair Nerf was justified.

Dair was always crazy stupid. However, idk if nerfing it this far was the right choice (I need to play around with it some more) but overall Falco feels done now. Leave him alone.

Fox tho... He's still stupid as always. Yes I know, his meta is developed and all, but he's still dumb. PAL weight and UpB would have been nice.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

That sucks. You should get some rest/be off the internet cuz isn't screen time bad when you have a concussion?

And people complain for the same reason they always complain: Salt. I'm *****ing about Falco cuz I'm salty about how bad he feels in PM. Lordling complains about spacies cuz he's salty and wants them nerfed to the ground. Most complaints on this thread are motivated by salt and not rational thought.

I'll thank you not speak for me.

 

[Anonistry]

Shall I get the popcorn gif now? Since its about Spacies AND all the nerfs with 3.5, there should be salt aplenty for it.

 

[pkblaze]

I am consistently amazed at the way people complain about Falco's PAL dair.
Must be cos I'm used to PAL or something but good lord lol, all you gotta do is think a little about when you throw it out to ensure the right hitbox, it's not difficult.

I would take PAL dair over that cuz I actually think it's a more interesting nerf than what PMDT did with his dair. I also have friends that aren't convinced it's a nerf (you want to late dair anyways to keep frame advantage from the aerial, weak dair is better for combos and now it's easier to land, etc)

 

[DARKcpu0]

I side falco. I honestly think he feels alittle better. The not having a spike on dair just opens up a new option for early juggling and mix ups like a mofo. I'd like a bit of a better recovery, but falco is pretty chill where he is.

But only giving Fox a weaker up smash is kinda dumb. He has an everything that covers everything.

Kinda hard to approach the guy who controls space, has a one frame combo extender and projectile killer to say **** you to anyone who tries to control space before he does, then has like 12 different kill options at any percent, while having the duality of being hard to combo for some characters, having weight that works for him, and having a stupid good recovery with the only downside is it being linear.

 

[pkblaze]

I'll thank you not speak for me.

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm calling out like half of everybody for being motivated more by salt than rational thoughts. This includes myself. You stick out in my mind cuz I've interacted with you most.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Not sure what you're trying to say. I'm calling out like half of everybody for being motivated more by salt than rational thoughts. This includes myself. You stick out in my mind cuz I've interacted with you most.

Yeah, I'm salty about spacies.

That's why I keep saying Focal is fine now and why I keep being suspiciously quiet about Wolf even though Wolf just went from top 10 to top 3.

Maybe you'd like to make the claim that people are more motivated by emotion than thought on spacies, but frankly I just like using italics for emphasis and I'm smarter than you.

So. I'll thank you not to speak for me.

@Fortress look what you've done to me.

 

[_Chrome]

That sucks. You should get some rest/be off the internet cuz isn't screen time bad when you have a concussion?

And people complain for the same reason they always complain: Salt. I'm *****ing about Falco cuz I'm salty about how bad he feels in PM. Lordling complains about spacies cuz he's salty and wants them nerfed to the ground. Most complaints on this thread are motivated by salt and not rational thought.

Thanks for the concern, man I appreciate it. I'm recovering from my concussion, so my memory/concentration is off, and I can safely use the Internet, etc. No more sports for mow though. At least it gives me time to school my friends in PM, etc.

Enough about me though. The salt against the spacies is just as ''toxic'' as Fox's adaptability. I've looked at Falco's dair stats, and they seem reasonable. As someone who's played Charizard against Falco, it's pretty annoying, but he can be so soft if he doesn't set up the chop shop. Simply throw him off stage with f throw into flamethrower for easy gimp about 50-60%. We'll see how this patch goes, maybe Falco will need another buff, maybe not. Maybe Fox needs more nerfs, we'll see. It's all a work in progress.

That's the beauty of this game. It's fun, competitive, and can be changed when necessary by the PMDT. They're doing a great job and I trust they'll make the right decisions when the next update is released.

 

[_Chrome]

Oh yeah, and Fox can be a little braindead. Even though smart players are AMAZING with him (that's why he's represented really well), dumb players can be good with him too because he's too versatile. Really fast, can kill, has good throws, good aerials, good projectile, good smashes, great comboing, shines, movement options, the list continues.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Oh yeah, and Fox can be a little braindead. Even though smart players are AMAZING with him (that's why he's represented really well), dumb players can be good with him too because he's too versatile. Really fast, can kill, has good throws, good aerials, good projectile, good smashes, great comboing, shines, movement options, the list continues.

You forgot shines, shines, and uh... whats the word.... shines? Maybe fmash? Hm. It seems lost on me.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Wait Fox has an FSmash?

 

[Anonistry]

Its sometimes hilarious to think of what shines do for them when they already tend to be quick, safe, and have good versatility. Its no wonder "give them a shine" as an answer to low tier heavies is both the obvious and most dangerous solution.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Its sometimes hilarious to think of what shines do for them when they already tend to be quick, safe, and have good versatility. Its no wonder "give them a shine" as an answer to low tier heavies is both the obvious and most dangerous solution.

Actually I'm not entirely sure that giving 3.02 Ganon a shine would make him anything more than mid.

Like dat jumpsquat ... And the general speed/power on his moves ... does not complement.

 

[pkblaze]

Maybe you'd like to make the claim that people are more motivated by emotion than thought on spacies, but frankly I just like using italics for emphasis and I'm smarter than you.

Um.

I'm smarter than you.

OK. While that may be so, I fail to understand why your intelligence allegedly being greater than mine means that you aren't influence by emotion. Smart people aren't stones. I also fail to understand why calling out my intelligence is an appropriate response to me calling out your salt.



Gonna try this reply to multiple people thing.

You forgot shines, shines, and uh... whats the word.... shines? Maybe fmash? Hm. It seems lost on me.

Fox's fsmash is actually better for edgeguarding than Falco's. the hitbox terminates 1 frame later so it can catch sweetspots when used near the edge. #themoreyouknow.

 

[_Chrome]

You forgot shines, shines, and uh... whats the word.... shines? Maybe fmash? Hm. It seems lost on me.

Oh yes, shines -> WD -> usmash, my apologies.

 

[Anonistry]

Alright, looks like a good time for it...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

So

Have I mentioned Ike is good

 

[_Chrome]

Just for the record, while I don't play Falco my bro does, and he takes WAY more skill than Fox. Falco doesn't need to be nerfed ANYMORE. Except that blaster is damn annoying, those conversions doe. Not that it needs a nerf, he's made of glass.

 

[_Chrome]

So

Have I mentioned Ike is good

Yeah he's awesome! My bro was playing as him yesterday and was destroying! I played teams with my friends and him yesterday, and him and one of my friends each played Ike, and I was like ''Oh god, it's the Ike Climbers!''

 

[pkblaze]

Actually I'm not entirely sure that giving 3.02 Ganon a shine would make him anything more than mid.

Like dat jumpsquat ... And the general speed/power on his moves ... does not complement.

It depends where the shine sends him. shine -> stomp sounds godlike. Also if the shine replaces his downB it nerfs his already bad recovery. He'd CC shine til like 50 atleast but he'd lose other stuff still. I guess Shine should be his neutral B though. Ganon CC shine fair sounds hilarious.

 

[Anonistry]

So

Have I mentioned Ike is good

I just appreciate him for the role he plays. Kinda nice for someone with such decent range and power to still be reasonable with speed.

EDIT: Oh, shine would be his nB, no question about it, it was a brief thing shot forth as an nB replacer pre-3.5. It was shot down both for being unnecessary, not answering some problems while answering others way too much.