Tier List Speculation

[InfinityCollision]

Yeah, I mean... I played her off and on in 3.02. She had a few things that fundamentally did not work as they should and so her effort/reward ratio was off, but aside from that she was fine. I figured I'd just revisit her in 3.5 because they all seemed like obvious fixes, but they did that and then way overshot the goalposts with all this other stuff. It's not even about whether she's buffed or nerfed, the way she feels is fundamentally different and not in a way that catches my interest to the same degree.

Don't get me wrong, there's some great stuff this update. Ganondorf changes are a shining example of how to change a character for the better while staying true to that character's design. The ZSS adjustments don't really meet that benchmark though, they just make her less unique/interesting.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

ZSS seems way more DD-bait-CQC based.

 

[Ogopogo]

As someone who is far too la- I mean BUSY to pour every inch of the changelog I wish someone out there would put out a simple list of important buffs and nerfs. All I know is that Luigi is still awful and now you have to have timing when you play Falco

 

[MLGF]

Can we call 3.5 for what it's day 1 vibe is giving?

Star Fox vs Fire Emblem:
Clash of jank

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Unregistered Ike nerfs:

Because of the new ledge mechanics,

DEAR IKE MAINS,
ALWAYS F***ING BAN LYLAT
SERIOUSLY DO NOT LET ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TAKE YOU THERE EVER

That is all

 

[shairn]

Unregistered Ike nerfs:

Because of the new ledge mechanics,

DEAR IKE MAINS,
ALWAYS F***ING BAN LYLAT
SERIOUSLY DO NOT LET ANOTHER HUMAN BEING TAKE YOU THERE EVER

That is all

The superior option is to move to somewhere where Lylat is not a legal stage.

 

[Deleted member]

Picking Fox doesn't give you the win in the same way that 3.02 Mario, Diddy, Lucas and M2 did. This is because, obviously, the game is partly about technical skill and partly about mind games. Practicing for ten thousand hours in your basement to have perfect Fox tech skill will get you places, but you'll hit a wall relatively quickly if your mind games aren't good.

not only is this false, it is demonstrably incorrect. most of the top tier players in the world have grinded vs the CPU much more than anyone else and will freely admit this if you talk to them about it. this is well known amongst the brawl kids, but armada, m2k, dr pp, and others have all been there too. that's part of why the CPU is so frustrating, the cheatyface DI the CPU does largely makes it invalid for grind practice when you're by yourself. also, mindgames are bad, stop using them.

 

[shairn]

not only is this false, it is demonstrably incorrect. most of the top tier players in the world have grinded vs the CPU much more than anyone else and will freely admit this if you talk to them about it. this is well known amongst the brawl kids, but armada, m2k, dr pp, and others have all been there too. that's part of why the CPU is so frustrating, the cheatyface DI the CPU does largely makes it invalid for grind practice when you're by yourself. also, mindgames are bad, stop using them.

I can't say I understood the point you want to make.

 

[Foo]

not only is this false, it is demonstrably incorrect. most of the top tier players in the world have grinded vs the CPU much more than anyone else and will freely admit this if you talk to them about it. this is well known amongst the brawl kids, but armada, m2k, dr pp, and others have all been there too. that's part of why the CPU is so frustrating, the cheatyface DI the CPU does largely makes it invalid for grind practice when you're by yourself. also, mindgames are bad, stop using them.

can't tell if trolling...

 

[pkblaze]

I think Umbreon embodies the stereotypical East Coast Melee philosophy that there is always an optimal option.

For those who don't know, East Coast in melee is traditionally seen as being about "master the game, exert more control over the game than your opponent" where as West Coast is traditionally seen as being about "Play the player, exert more control over your opponent than he does over you."

How true/correct either philosophy is is a matter of debate, but Umbreon will straight up tell you it's East Coast.

Edit: This is Umbreon's write-up on rapid improvement in Melee. Philosophically a lot of this can be applied to PM. Worth a read, even if you don't agree with his views.

http://smashboards.com/threads/drastic-improvement-under-construction-for-apex.311129/

 

[mimgrim]

This is all I'm going to say on the matter, but Squirtle got many significant nerfs, ones that hurt the character far more than the changes to his side-b, aquajet and smashes. Although the latter are the things you will probably be hearing gripes about most often from the less experienced mains of the character.

I think the Side Special changes a were good thing, in all honesty. From a design perspective, I mean, as the move was kinda on the ugly side in that regard. Smashes are a bit of a bummer but nothing big and again make sense from a design perspective. Reduced Short Hop is jarring and annoying though. No more Nair > Waveland and Dair doesn't get to finish before landing from a SH anymore. And RIP Light Armor.

New Up Tilt is good though. And so is increased air mobility.

But Yea. Some of Squirt's changes do make me go "Why?".

....

More normalized Ganondorf + OoT skin = more fun to play him again. Seriously, playing him in is TP skin just doesn't look or feel right in P:M physics.

Bowser has a 6 frame jump squat now. Whoohoo. Like the new Fortress Hogging, feels a lot more comfortable then 3.02 at least.

I might be interpreting incorrectly but was Sheik's dash attack end-lag actually decreased by 9 frames? Also, Melee skin is ew.

Ike has Black Knight armor... Seriously considering maining now just because of that.

Why did Falco get hit hard in comparison to Fox. Does not compute.

Olimar is ew in 3.5.

Don't find MK to be that fun anymore. Still seems good though.

Teleport change to Mewtwo has made him more fun to play for me.

OMG, ICs in polar bear costumes are so ****ing cute.

Is it just me, or can Lucas not cancel Shine Magnet by jumping anymore?

Everyone has a good Wavedash on Infinite Glacier.

Just some brief impressions of 3.5 after playing it all day.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

well falco was already clearly underperforming for some reason in PM so they decided to nerf his combo game and kill potential. pretty straightforward, really.

 

[pkblaze]

well falco was already clearly underperforming for some reason in PM so they decided to nerf his combo game and kill potential. pretty straightforward, really.

Fo real though. They fixed his upB which was great but his upthrow is butts and his movement feels clunky. It's not like he combos floaties super hard, which are like half the cast of PM.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah because no character that has not performed well has ever merited or received changes due to toxic design elements.

well falco was already clearly underperforming for some reason in PM so they decided to nerf his combo game and kill potential. pretty straightforward, really.

 

[mimgrim]

I just find it funny that Falco got hit like that but Fox made it out relatively unharmed in comparison.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I just find it funny that Falco got hit like that but Fox made it out relatively unharmed in comparison.

You know what?

So do I.

I'm laughing.

Yep. Tears of laughter.

Definitely.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Day 1 thoughts. Zard went from secret high-tier to decisively mid-tier with glide going from a risky mobility option to becoming incredibly awkward and almost unusable on-stage. Also invul and disjoint nerfs everywhere rofl.

Most other characters who got nerfed still have their gameplan relatively in-tact. Ivy still feels stupid good. Though it helps to be able to shield DI d-tilt now. Still hate her though. Most her good hitboxes are still the same, and the uthrow change just means people who literally didn't know to DI towards her won't have to learn now. It's still got quite a good release point and the charges are a nice plus.

Also just hate bair in general as a move.

 

[Burnsy]

New Up Tilt is good though.

Actually, utilt might be overalled nerfed. It's animation and hitbox tweak means worse priority, and it doesnt hit as hard. Its interruptable sooner which is nice but it feels like Squirtle already has more than a handful of combo starters.

 

[shapular]

The more I think about it, the less I "get" some of the ZSS changes. I can see the dominoes of one thing following another, but I fail to understand the rationale for changing her in ways that so deeply alter her gameplan and (perhaps more importantly) her feel/playstyle at every level. It's a huge shift for a character that would have been adequately served by more subtle changes, and an emphasis on subtlety in alterations is certainly a desirable goal for a character that wasn't fundamentally busted to begin with.

What exactly changed about ZSS? I actually like her in 3.5 when I didn't care for her in 3.0, but I'm not sure why that is.

Fox is definitely going to be good in this version. Probably even more too good than in 3.0. Hello Melee 2.0

Are there any other characters that you guys think are too good? I thought about figuring out who the next Mewtwo is and picking that character up, but I can't really look at a changelist and figure out what it means practically.

 

[Deleted member]

The only thing I can say for certain regarding the tier list for 3.5 is that instead of 60% of people putting Fox at #1, it's going to be 100%. Any character that gave him a run for his money received noticeable nerfs, while all he has to worry about is his U-smash killing half a percent later.

well falco was already clearly underperforming for some reason in PM so they decided to nerf his combo game and kill potential. pretty straightforward, really.

Sorry but his Dair deserved to be nerfed. That move has always been stupid.

 

[RIDLEY is too SMALL]

2.0: Ike
2.1: Lucario
2.5: Sanic
2.6: Ivy
3.0: M2, Diddy, Lucas, Pit
3.5: Fox?

(If so, then Project M has achieved an impressive level of balance)

 

[Rᴏb]

Looks like more people are gonna have to pick up ROB.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah. Well.

I don't really know what to say anymore.

Fox's mobility makes it hard to get positional advantage. His lasers can make the attempt to do so very attritive and his principal finisher gives no ****s about positional advantage since it kills vertically. Even if it didn't Fox himself has one of the best edge-guarding kits in the game between Bair, Shine and (situationally) nair.

This is without even touching on his combo game, the fact that his recovery is very much not ****, or that his fallspeed can even be considered an advantage in MUs like Zard, who relies a fair bit on his own vertical KO potential.

Whatever. If it's time to deal then it's time to deal. Clearly talking about this any further is just completely ****ing pointless. My character can deal with Fox okay, so I'll just shut up and let you the rest of you deal with it.

 

[Hylian]

I feel like the upsmash nerf is more significant than people are making it out to be. I'm going to test numbers tomorrow when I get home from work.

 

[pkblaze]

I feel like the upsmash nerf is more significant than people are making it out to be. I'm going to test numbers tomorrow when I get home from work.

Is it PAL upsmash? I've heard yes but not from a reliable source.

 

[pkblaze]

Hylian can you also confirm whether the SDI on falco upthrow is intentional and if so why it was never documented?

 

[FlamingForce]

I feel like the upsmash nerf is more significant than people are making it out to be. I'm going to test numbers tomorrow when I get home from work.

It's literally PAL upsmash, down to the numbers.
Seeing as Fox (for whatever crazy reason) managed to dodge his other PAL nerfs it's not that significant at all, he'll kill around 15% later and that's about it.

 

[Juushichi]

I really wish we would have nerfed Fox harder. : (

I would have given him (and maybe Falco) the whole PAL treatment.

Also, Fox used to have a really ridiculous DACUS that covered five-six units (in training stage) if you did it right. I found this. Imagine if that would have gotten in the game, lol. He also used to have a gatling until we fixed it.

One thing that people should understand about nerfs and whatnot, especially when it comes to other characters coming up nerfed in a new version is that the DT has to best use their judgement on how a character will function in the new character environment.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to play against 3.02 Charizard, Ness, hell DK or Zelda (you should have ****ing SEEN that grab range on DK from 3.02) with a lot of 3.5 characters. Even with the new mechanics changes on shield, WD, SDI modifiers and more. There is a lot more that goes into balance changes than even just Character vs Character.

 

[Juushichi]

[EDIT: Double post. This one moved above.]

 

[FlamingForce]

PAL Falco is fine, I dunno if he would require the treatment in PM but in Melee the only difference is that you need to be slightly more on-point with how you place your dairs, his combo game is a tiny tad harder.
The last time I saw a PAL Falco main play NTSC all he did was exclaim "Holy **** these Americans have it EASY"

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to play against 3.02 Charizard, Ness, hell DK (you should have ****ing SEEN that grab range from 3.02) with a lot of 3.5 characters. Even with the new mechanics changes on shield, WD and more. There is a lot more that goes into balance changes than even just Character vs Character.

I agree entirely, I've played a lot of Diddy and Ness and both characters feel alot tighter now, the game a whole took some getting used to again but feels better overall and I'm actually enjoying having to switch up my gameplan with Ness by doing magnet-related stuff and so on.
I don't like the assault on Diddy's kill power, I think the fair angle was a little too much in 3.0 but the nerf may have been a tad too much. Diddy's still good tho but like Ness I just gotta play with different plans and goals.

I think overall the re-balancing is pretty great, I just don't agree with the spacies not getting similarly hit especially considering that spacie tech skill is slightly easier in PM.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I really wish we would have nerfed Fox harder. : (

I would have given him (and maybe Falco) the whole PAL treatment.

Also, Fox used to have a really ridiculous DACUS that covered five-six units (in training stage) if you did it right. I found this. Imagine if that would have gotten in the game, lol. He also used to have a gatling until we fixed it.

One thing that people should understand about nerfs and whatnot, especially when it comes to other characters coming up nerfed in a new version is that the DT has to best use their judgement on how a character will function in the new character environment.

I don't know about you guys, but I sure as hell wouldn't want to play against 3.02 Charizard, Ness, hell DK or Zelda (you should have ****ing SEEN that grab range on DK from 3.02) with a lot of 3.5 characters. Even with the new mechanics changes on shield, WD, SDI modifiers and more. There is a lot more that goes into balance changes than even just Character vs Character.

And yet in 3.5 we're being asked to fight 3.02 Fox.

I suppose we'll see but that Up-Smash nerf doesn't cut the mustard.

 

[TreK]

Speaking of DK, SB shared two pics with us on the DK skype group, we might as well share them here

This first one is a comparison between 3.0 upB and 3.5 upB :

This second one is DK's old grab range. You can go in debug mode to find out what it looks like now :

The new one is much thinner, making is impossible to link jab1 to a standing grab in example.

 

[Cuon Alpinus]

Ganon top 5?
He feels very good with all the buffs

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ganon top 5?
He feels very good with all the buffs

Probably not tbf

 

[Hylian]

It's literally PAL upsmash, down to the numbers.
Seeing as Fox (for whatever crazy reason) managed to dodge his other PAL nerfs it's not that significant at all, he'll kill around 15% later and that's about it.

15% is the difference between Leffen beating Armada in NTSC at TBH4 and losing. 60% a game is pretty significant. Leffen himself said he doubt he would have won with PAL upsmash. Just something to think about.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

... a fair point.

Well we got this much. More opportunities to punish Fox.

 

[Juushichi]

He also played Armada at dommelan last weekend and was convincingly 3-0d in WF and then in Grand FInals Set 1.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He also played Armada at dommelan last weekend and was convincingly 3-0d in WF and then in Grand FInals Set 1.

PAL Melee?

 

[FlamingForce]

15% is the difference between Leffen beating Armada in NTSC at TBH4 and losing. 60% a game is pretty significant. Leffen himself said he doubt he would have won with PAL upsmash. Just something to think about.

You can't just cherrypick that one instance of NTSC coming through for him, PAL Fox's recovery is also weaker, he is lighter and his Fire Fox has a smaller hitbox.
15% wasn't the difference, all of the buffs he has in NTSC were the difference.

There's not much to think about when a player playing a stronger character and a favorable MU in PAL requires said character to be even better to just barely beat Armada, when they played PAL in Norway a while later Leffen was once again destroyed in familiar fashion.

 

[Juushichi]

PAL Melee, of course and FF does have a good point. I would trust Leffen's judgement on that though.

WF

GF