Tier List Speculation

[Foo]

Ugh. I really hope fox and samus aren't top tier. The only character I hate playing against more than those two is sonic. T-T

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Ugh. I really hope fox and samus aren't top tier. The only character I hate playing against more than those two is sonic. T-T

Pick Ike and go even with all 3

(Ike gon be so gud)

 

[Foo]

Pick Ike and go even with all 3

(Ike gon be so gud)

I think ZSS beats samus (at least she did last patch), I just find it really unfun to play against samus. With the nair changes for zss, I bet she can combo samus even better now. However, if everyone starts playing fox that's... gonna make it impossible for ZSS to be remotely high tier. I think the matchup may be even worse than it was before since the changes to ZSS don't help against fox. I'll have to REALLY work on my roy (who I play against fox) if I want to compete against fox players. Oh well, sigh.

Also, Zss probably will do ok against sonic because of sonic nerfs.

 

[Boiko]

I don't see what is so good about Samus now or is that a joke?

If you can't SDI consistently, Samus is going to ruin your day.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I think ZSS beats samus (at least she did last patch), I just find it really unfun to play against samus. With the nair changes for zss, I bet she can combo samus even better now. However, if everyone starts playing fox that's... gonna make it impossible for ZSS to be remotely high tier. I think the matchup may be even worse than it was before since the changes to ZSS don't help against fox. I'll have to REALLY work on my roy (who I play against fox) if I want to compete against fox players. Oh well, sigh.

Also, Zss probably will do ok against sonic because of sonic nerfs.

I'm honestly just happy that Ike can fight Mewtwos, Lucases and Diddies now. *breathes easy*

 

[InfinityCollision]

Baw, RIP dash cancel paralyzer. That **** was sexy. Faster paralyzer shots and lower startup is kinda sexy too though... What's up with the usmash change? Haven't gone in-game to check it yet (dl keeps ****ing up, do we have a mirror yet? found the mediafire link), hoping that denotes a fix to the move since they fixed fair.

Wolf changes... hm. We'll see.

Mewtwo changes are... okay, I think. Dtilt IASA buff helps offset some of the other things, it's a decent poke now. Later Shadow Ball cancel seems odd but whatever. RIP buttgrab. Not sure how I feel about changes to teleport yet, loss of DJ/hover was expected and ability to teleport through platforms is nice but earlier reappearance... eh. Is the grounded ending animation still stupidly long? Need to check some things I think.

Fox/Falco changes are a good thing. I guess removal of shine lock was a bug since it's back in now?

 

[Jacob29]

did Mario really get nerfed?

I couldn't see anything that really toned him down.. at all...

 

[Phan7om]

Cuz Melee bruh

 

[Jonyc128]

It's so much harder to walljump now, but other than that not too many changes

 

[InfinityCollision]

did Mario really get nerfed?

I couldn't see anything that really toned him down.. at all...

Weaker fireballs with later IASA, dtilt lost leg invincibility, less dsmash damage, dair hitboxes less stupid, dthrow less free, cape stall nerfed

so yes, somewhat

 

[Foo]

did Mario really get nerfed?

I couldn't see anything that really toned him down.. at all...

His downthrow won't lead to free chain grabs and fairs, his fireball won't be stupidly good for aproaching because it's iasa is 6 frames longer, his down and side smash got nerfed, his down air won't have ******** range (like so http://i.imgur.com/syJojEi.png?3), his recovery is nerfed, and he lost some dumb things like intangibility on downtilt.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Mario is still good, just not braindead as far as I can see.

 

[Deleted member]

Samus went even with Fox in Melee (allegedly) and has only gotten better.

lol no samus vs fox is awful in melee

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

lol no samus vs fox is awful in melee

Yeah tbf I've heard that said but I had serious doubts

 

[DARKcpu0]

Not sure how I feel about changes to teleport yet, loss of DJ/hover was expected and ability to teleport through platforms is nice but earlier reappearance... eh. Is the grounded ending animation still stupidly long? Need to check some things I think.

As for his teleport, he lost the ability to kill with up b fair at top of the screen.

Which ****ing blows. And its extremely pointless as you cant float out of up b the old way, but still retain a double jump.

Literally pointless for it to eat the double jump if the goal was to kill float.

Also if timed right, as in like a frame window which only works sometimes but nonetheless does, you can just barely manage an attack out of up b after having used a double jump.

I noted that before I think. Still all sucks.

No more ledgestall. Because like 10 other character totally don't have one. Or 3 in the case of melee spacies. And because we totally didn't get the ledge 5 limit then no invincibility thing.

Totally.

 

[Foo]

As for his teleport, he lost the ability to kill with up b fair at top of the screen.

Which ****ing blows. And its extremely pointless as you cant float out of up b the old way, but still retain a double jump.

Literally pointless for it to eat the double jump if the goal was to kill float.

Also if timed right, as in like a frame window which only works sometimes but nonetheless does, you can just barely manage an attack out of up b after having used a double jump.

I noted that before I think. Still all sucks.

No more ledgestall. Because like 10 other character totally don't have one. Or 3 in the case of melee spacies. And because we totally didn't get the ledge 5 limit then no invincibility thing.

Totally.

No one has ledge stall anymore. After 5 regrabs, you get MUCH fewer invincibility frames

 

[DARKcpu0]

No one has ledge stall anymore. After 5 regrabs, you get MUCH fewer invincibility frames

I pointed that out. Kinda to prove a point. It was pointless to get rid of mewtwo's ledgestall if you're left so vulnerable after 5 regrabs.

I'd love to replace the 3.5 mewtwo with 3.02 to see how bad having the old ledge stall possibly could have been in debug.

 

[InfinityCollision]

Am I missing something here? I don't see anything that removes woopstalling except the regrab limit, but I'm still struggling to download the update.

Actions out of teleport consuming DJ imposes a greater element of risk in teleport use. It's a reasonable change and something along those lines was not unexpected, but I think that the animation change in combination with the action change might've overdone it.

 

[Ogopogo]

mfw squirt's side b gets nerfed to the ground and all luigi gets is a better dash attack

 

[DARKcpu0]

Am I missing something here? I don't see anything that removes woopstalling except the regrab limit, but I'm still struggling to download the update.

Actions out of teleport consuming DJ imposes a greater element of risk in teleport use. It's a reasonable change and something along those lines was not unexpected, but I think that the animation change in combination with the action change might've overdone it.

Let me put it this way.

The way mewtwo's teleport works now,

is almost exactly in melee in terms of the ledge.

If you try and do the ledge stall, in which you have to either hold completely vertically down or at an angle towards the stage and down should you not have known, you just go in that direction. You don't grab ledge. You can hold horizontally forward and do the ledge stall, unlike melee where you must hold the control stick up and forward, sorta. Same effect. This slow wonky ledge stall.

But hey, Only upside I see so far is that ledge cancelling mewtwo's up b is incredibly easy, allowing for a pseudo float out of teleport whilst still retaining a teleport out of float.

 

[Mi4Slayer]

I think link is going to drop upper mid ... The rang and the Zair got some unpleasant nerfs

 

[Soft Serve]

Diddy hardly got touched imo, wolf got de jank ed but not nerfed, fox didn't get nerfed at all, and up b fix is a buff worth like 2 pal upsmash nerfs

3.5 is going to be fun

 

[steelguttey]

they did itl

they nerfed olimar

holy ****ing ****

 

[CyberZixx]

Can we just agree as a community to ban fox? I'm half serious. I don't wanna see him after all these changes.

 

[DARKcpu0]

Can we just agree as a community to ban fox? I'm half serious. I don't wanna see him after all these changes.

I'm ok with this.

 

[InfinityCollision]

is almost exactly in melee in terms of the ledge.

Huh. That... actually is a really big change. Ledge mixups just became a lot less powerful.

At least teleport autocancels weren't touched.

In other news... I think Mewtwo gained a DACUS? Goes ~1/4 the length of FD.

 

[Soft Serve]

Games been out for like 4 hours, see fox didnt get destroyed completely, want to just ban him

 

[CyberZixx]

Looking at how all the other characters that approached fox's level got nerfed, it is fair to say Fox is cleanly the best character. Hopefully i'm wrong and 3.5 is more balanced than fox dominance.

 

[steelguttey]

guys

OLIMAR got NERFED

 

[ArcDawn]

Let me put it this way.

The way mewtwo's teleport works now,

is almost exactly in melee in terms of the ledge.

If you try and do the ledge stall, in which you have to either hold completely vertically down or at an angle towards the stage and down should you not have known, you just go in that direction. You don't grab ledge. You can hold horizontally forward and do the ledge stall, unlike melee where you must hold the control stick up and forward, sorta. Same effect. This slow wonky ledge stall.

But hey, Only upside I see so far is that ledge cancelling mewtwo's up b is incredibly easy, allowing for a pseudo float out of teleport whilst still retaining a teleport out of float.

I did a bit of testing and it seems that you can still do the woops decently fast. However the input is slightly different is all/harder to do

 

[InfinityCollision]

Nah, Mewtwo's ledgestall definitely got nerfed. It's slower and the autocancel to the stage is noticeably slower/more telegraphed because you have to get more height before you can perform it.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Mario barely got nerfed.

But who cares. Bowser on Ice

 

[Praxis]

Diddy got nerfed in to the ground

 

[DARKcpu0]

I did a bit of testing and it seems that you can still do the woops decently fast. However the input is slightly different is all/harder to do

You have to be pretty perfect for it to work as a proper ledgestall.

Nah, Mewtwo's ledgestall definitely got nerfed. It's slower and the autocancel to the stage is noticeably slower/more telegraphed because you have to get more height before you can perform it.

You can also see where mewtwo comes like 5 frames before he shows up as noted in the nerf list. More telegraphing. Wee.

Damn this ************ god his ledge game nerfed to the ground.

 

[Mystic-]

Fox/Samus/Lucas all seem hella good still but we're all going to have to do a lot of playtesting before assuming Fox is as broken as he seems on the surface.

 

[MLGF]

Ike is mad good against Fox guys.
Heed my warning, the spacey slayer is still here.

 

[Mystic-]

Ok I'm not going to lie Ike is cool as **** I hope he becomes more popular. I hated the uber top tiers prepatch (Diddy, M2, Pit mostly but Lucas was dumb as well just because of how free his stuff was) and I'm really hoping the 3.5 top tiers will both be less crazy in terms of absolute power and more interesting to play against/watch

 

[Phan7om]

Games been out for like 4 hours, see fox didnt get destroyed completely, want to just ban him

Its so dumb its funny

 

[DARKcpu0]

In other news... I think Mewtwo gained a DACUS? Goes ~1/4 the length of FD.

I havent been able to execute a DACUS with mewtwo by any means, so I wouldn't really know. Huh.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

No no banning Fox is totally reasonable I promise

Last time a Smash community decided to ban a character it worked out really well

Trust me guyz