Tier List Speculation

[Foo]

I personally think Ness has a lot of tools now. He needs his ability to sweet spot while facing backwards fixed. That's the most important thing.

After that, making magnet a few frames faster would be perfect. Other than that, I like his design and I think he's fine.



Do you actually want me to explain or are you just being a child?

I don't agree with the way he said it, but I do agree with the sentiment. The phrase "removing gimmicks" is really dumb imo. For most people who make that point, they are basically saying "remove the cool things that no melee top tier had."

There were very few gimmicks in 3.0 that could be relied upon in higher level play. There was link rang, mario fireball, sonic down-b and maybe some diddy stuff.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

kids are always the first to bring up who's a kid and who ain't

but yeah I would actually like an explanation as to what "fundamentals" are and why "dodging projectiles" apparently doesn't count

It's to do with the fact that for most projectiles dodge + a few other things are options and PKFire3.02 is just flat-out much better on block, effectively having more limited counterplay than most projectiles.

Yes, SDI, yes buffered rools but being forced to use your DJ/being forced to roll are not things other projectiles did with such consistency. And rolls are punishable. This made PKFire3.02 a psychotic conditioning tool and the reward v/s risk was just straight up BS.

That said, Ness probably should have gotten something as compensation. But we'll see.

 

[Mystic-]

kids are always the first to bring up who's a kid and who ain't

but yeah I would actually like an explanation as to what "fundamentals" are and why "dodging projectiles" apparently doesn't count

I think he's saying that Ness players can no longer have their neutral game consist of "PK fire - the character" and thusly have to use more interesting, varied, and difficult maneuvers to play the neutral game. I hate the word "gimmicks" since it seems like it's basically attributed to anything powerful and cool that melee top tiers didn't have (like if shine isn't a gimmick wtf is?) but I get his point and I like how a lot of mid - low tier mains view the changes to their over centralizing strategies (even if they were only really effective in low level play) as a good thing.

 

[jtm94]

I think Ness is still fine and gimmicks will bountiful once again..

 

[Boiko]

kids are always the first to bring up who's a kid and who ain't

but yeah I would actually like an explanation as to what "fundamentals" are and why "dodging projectiles" apparently doesn't count

I have no idea what you're referencing by saying "dodging projectiles."

Regardless, what I'm saying is that there have been players, whether it be at local scene or even some bigger tournaments, who were able to get results by abusing a mechanic that was generally considered overpowered (such as Link's boomerang, Diddy's bananas.) You can make the argument that a good player would adapt to these changes, but some of those tools were just that good. For example, Link's recovery, between AGT and bomb jumping meant that if he didn't die from a blast zone, he could survive anything. It's silly and doesn't make much sense.

Now that a lot of those overpowered options have been modified, they need to be used intelligently. PK Fire being a great example. You only have 45 frames to react to a hit instead of 100. Less experienced players had a lot of time to go in and get a grab, into, d throw into auto combo. Now, you need to think more not only of the placement of your PKF, but what the optimal punish would be if you were to hit. The game itself got a lot deeper, because the once super safe options that guaranteed kills, don't exist anymore.

Ultimately, there is a greater emphasis on fundamentals.

For the record, a 13 year old 2-0'd Emukiller with Link by basically only using zair and boomerang. So it was prevalent even at the highest levels.

Hope this clears up the point I was trying to make.

@ Foo Yeah, I put gimmicks in quotes for that reason. There is a wide interpretation of what they are.

 

[Bleck]

It's to do with the fact that for most projectiles dodge + a few other things are options and PKFire3.02 is just flat-out much better on block, effectively having more limited counterplay than most projectiles.

Yes, SDI, yes buffered rools but being forced to use your DJ/being forced to roll are not things other projectiles did with such consistency. And rolls are punishable. This made PKFire3.02 a psychotic conditioning tool and the reward v/s risk was just straight up BS.

I understand why PK Fire was so good, and I agree that it shouldn't have been so effective on block. What I don't understand is why that matters in a game where the best characters have always been characters with lots of moves that are extremely effective on block.

Where is the line, exactly, between "a gimmick" and "shield pressure"?

I think he's saying that Ness players can no longer have their neutral game consist of "PK fire - the character"

I don't think (and I will readily accept evidence to the contrary) that any good Ness players relied entirely on PK Fire to be effective - I think the assertion is less about actual trends and more about undermining the accomplishments of good Ness players. Again, I don't actually disagree with the PK Fire nerf. But in a game where every character is extremely mobile (enough to consistently dodge projectiles, especially one as not-spammable as PK Fire) and has access to a reflector (either via powershielding or through specials that act as such), I find it difficult to accept that any player that was beaten by a Ness that was only using PK Fire to approach wasn't just - brace yourself, I'm going there - a baddie.

I hate the word "gimmicks" since it seems like it's basically attributed to anything powerful and cool that melee top tiers didn't have (like if shine isn't a gimmick wtf is?)

Yeah, basically.

I have no idea what you're referencing by saying "dodging projectiles."

Apparently, neither did anybody regularly beaten by Ness. Heyo!

Regardless, what I'm saying is that there have been players, whether it be at local scene or even some bigger tournaments, who were able to get results by abusing a mechanic that was generally considered overpowered (such as Link's boomerang, Diddy's bananas.)

It doesn't matter if something is "generally considered" something. I'm not asking what everyone else thought - I'm asking what you thought.

You can make the argument that a good player would adapt to these changes, but some of those tools were just that good. For example, Link's recovery, between AGT and bomb jumping meant that if he didn't die from a blast zone, he could survive anything. It's silly and doesn't make much sense.

Link's recovery being so good was only questionable in the context of a game wherein few others had good recoveries. In the case of Ness' PK Fire, why was such reliable and overbearing shield pressure considered unacceptable when the large majority of the 'better' characters have access to tools that serve the same purpose?

PK Fire being a great example. You only have 45 frames to react to a hit instead of 100. Less experienced players had a lot of time to go in and get a grab, into, d throw into auto combo. Now, you need to think more not only of the placement of your PKF, but what the optimal punish would be if you were to hit. The game itself got a lot deeper, because the once super safe options that guaranteed kills, don't exist anymore.

Why is 45 frames an objectively better time than 100 frames? If a smaller amount of frames means that something requires more skill, why not make every attack and reaction only 1 frame? Through what means has anyone determined the objectively correct amount of frames that separate the acceptable from the "gimmicks"?

Ultimately, there is a greater emphasis on fundamentals.

You've yet to explain what "fundamentals" are.

 

[Boiko]

I understand why PK Fire was so good, and I agree that it shouldn't have been so effective on block. What I don't understand is why that matters in a game where the best characters have always been characters with lots of moves that are extremely effective on block.

Where is the line, exactly, between "a gimmick" and "shield pressure"?



I don't think (and I will readily accept evidence to the contrary) that any good Ness players relied entirely on PK Fire to be effective - I think the assertion is less about actual trends and more about undermining the accomplishments of good Ness players. Again, I don't actually disagree with the PK Fire nerf. But in a game where every character is extremely mobile (enough to consistently dodge projectiles, especially one as not-spammable as PK Fire) and has access to a reflector (either via powershielding or through specials that act as such), I find it difficult to accept that any player that was beaten by a Ness that was only using PK Fire to approach wasn't just - brace yourself, I'm going there - a baddie.



Yeah, basically.



Apparently, neither did anybody regularly beaten by Ness. Heyo!



It doesn't matter if something is "generally considered" something. I'm not asking what everyone else thought - I'm asking what you thought.



Link's recovery being so good was only questionable in the context of a game wherein few others had good recoveries. In the case of Ness' PK Fire, why was such reliable and overbearing shield pressure considered unacceptable when the large majority of the 'better' characters have access to tools that serve the same purpose?



Why is 45 frames an objectively better time than 100 frames? If a smaller amount of frames means that something requires more skill, why not make every attack and reaction only 1 frame? Through what means has anyone determined the objectively correct amount of frames that separate the acceptable from the "gimmicks"?



You've yet to explain what "fundamentals" are.

...What?
I'm sorry, I'm not replying to these points because they're obviously misguided.

 

[Bleck]

...What?
I'm sorry, I'm not replying to these points because they're obviously misguided.

whatever you say bub

 

[mimgrim]

just want to add that olimar isnt as bad now as you guys think. he still has the best pivot grab in the game and the only real nerfs are that you cant use side b to force the opponent to do stupid **** and you cant get 9000000 usmashes off of dthrow

I actually never called him bad, at least I don't think I did.

I just called him ew. Ew as in he is seriously not any fun to play anymore. Almost as unfun as Smash 4 Olimar. Still way better then Smash 4 Olimar will ever. But holy crap do I hate playing as him in 3.5.

saying Ness has a bad neutral game now that 3.0 pk fire is gone just shows how much you relied on that tool, and how little you explored the rest of the character.

Ness was one of my mains in 3.0 and i hardly ever used pk fire. It's amazing the things he can do with the rest of his move-set

While I don't necessarily disagree with the general premise, don't fully agree with it either though, that you are getting at. Why would you limit yourself of a tool that is, quite frankly, godlike?

Though I don't think is as horrendous in the neutral game as people claim without PK Fire it still isn't that good and is in the realm of decent. PK Fire was still a superior option to use in neutral over his other tools almost all of the time because of how it worked. And to have hardly ever used it was basically you just handicapping yourself.

I do think Ness is fine in 3.5 though with the change to PK Fire and Dthrow and general design changes found in the characters now.

I just don't get why you would have handicaped yourself from PK Fire like that in 3.02, and to also reiterate that I'm not saying Ness didn't have other tools just that PK Fire was superio to these other tools most of the time due to the general safeness of the move along with the great reward it offered.

 

[Scrubby]

The problem with moves like the old pk fire is that they dont need commitment. Not only are they safe on shield, they aren't risky for what they give. This had the consequence of making them polarizing, and in the end characters like ness or link would have no reason to work for hits and no reason to do anything different.

 

[Bleck]

The problem with moves like the old pk fire is that they dont need commitment. Not only are they safe on shield, they aren't risky for what they give.

I understand why PK Fire was so good, and I agree that it shouldn't have been so effective on block. What I don't understand is why that matters in a game where the best characters have always been characters with lots of moves that are extremely effective on block.

Where is the line, exactly, between "a gimmick" and "shield pressure"?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Where is the line, exactly, between "a gimmick" and "shield pressure"?

Blue hexagons, apparently.

 

[Bleck]

Apparently.

 

[Soft Serve]

Spacie attacks shield, risks getting grabbed/upsmash/any other OoS option and potentially losing the stock if not frame perfect, nets a combo or tech chase if they crack, potentially a grab do they respect the pressure a lot

Ness pk fires a shield, he is at a safe distance away even if they could buffer a roll out, and nets a free grab.

Implying there's no difference in risk/reward between pressure that puts a character directly on top of the opponent and a projectile that locks them down is obscenely silly.

Edit: and I'm not defending/justifying the fact only spacies can pressure sheilds well, I think that's stupid too. But having a projectile do it for you is the worst.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Spacie attacks shield, risks getting grabbed/upsmash/any other OoS option and potentially losing the stock if not frame perfect

Ness pk fires a shield, he is at a safe distance away even if they could buffer a roll out, and nets a free grab

Implying there's no difference in risk/reward between pressure that puts a character directly on top of the opponent and a projectile that locks them down is obscenely silly.

I agree with the Fox player.

^ Did I actually just type that

 

[Ripple]

don't be a hermione, don't answer for him

 

[Soft Serve]

Nothing was worse than 2.6 ivy razer leaf
pk fire may have locked them down, but ivy literally had a marvel beam assist built into her kit, but she can grab them in block stun

 

[Strong Badam]

still took reflex to game 5 in 2.6 :3

 

[JOE!]

Shines are some of the gimmickiest things Ive ever seen

 

[Bleck]

Spacie attacks shield, risks getting grabbed/upsmash/any other OoS option and potentially losing the stock if not frame perfect, nets a combo or tech chase if they crack, potentially a grab do they respect the pressure a lot

Arguing that the spacie's shield-pressure options require, arguably, frame perfect inputs is irrelevant when reacting to spacie shield pressure also requires, arguably, frame perfect inputs. Unlike actual high-risk/high-reward characters in fighting games, playing as a spacie is basically low-risk/high-reward - reacting to spacie shield-pressure is, at average skill level, close to impossible, and at high skill level, enormously difficult.

This is the part where you say that Fox and Falco have awful recoveries and are combo'd easily, followed closely by the part where I point out that so does literally everyone else in the game (much worse, in fact, in most cases).

Ness pk fires a shield, he is at a safe distance away even if they could buffer a roll out, and nets a free grab.

Again, I'm not saying that PK Fire should have been so free - what I'm saying is that stuff just as free still exists, and the whole metagame revolves around it. Why is PK Fire okay, but all the other stuff isn't?

 

[Blank Mauser]

PK Fire wouldn't have done much in this version with shield DI probably. And most competent players just spot dodged, rolled out of the way, or learned to SDI it in 3.02 anyways.

Literally its purpose would've been to annoy mid-level players. It functions the same for its main uses, which are combos and starters. This is overall a quality of life change to make the character less frustrating while keeping his kit mostly the same.

 

[Player -0]

How will Reslived do well with the new PKF? That's all he had.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Boiko Youre speaking the truth on them links
I hate when stupid ass link players dumb down rang like good players aren't effected by one of the best "imma open you up projectiles in the game"
Is his rang still +?

 

[MagnesD3]

Shines are some of the gimmickiest things Ive ever seen

You are probably right.

 

[The_NZA]

The severe lack of knowledge of Ness on these boards is preposterous. If you think an 8 frame magnet is somehow the silver bullet to Ness's neutral game, you actually don't really know the character. There is no amount of safe or even semi safe pressure Ness can apply to a shield of a lot of characters in this game, which is what makes some of his matchups absolutely atrocious. Yes, it's true, some matchups will be just as fine but many are going to be significantly harder to borderline impossible (7-3 or worse).

Here's my hint for all of your counterplay to Ness. If he's in the air, hold shield because his only option is DJC->aerial, and all of his DJC approaches land him solidly in range for a punish with the exception of a perfectly spaced bair on some opponents (note--if your Marth, don't worry. Your shield grab will still beat this out).

If he dashes at you and gets close to you, he's going for a grab because he's got junk grab range. Just shield until he's close and then punish.

If he tries to do a drifting magnet into you, just shield through the magnet and whatever aerial is going to follow, and punish. If he's severely underestimating your intelligence and chooses to wavedash out of magnet, just shield the magnet but punish the 10 frames of lag from the wavedash out of the magnet.

TL:DR Just shield and punish, and if he closes in for the grab, punish sooner.

Stick to the above rules and all you have to worry about is the occasionaly downtilt string.

For best results, use Marth or Fox.

EDIT: I actually have always rallied and still rally for pkfire to not activate on shield. But Ness could have afforded something in return to help him out v. shield. Now that his grabs are way worse, I'd say he can afford to have a grab range buff, a speed buff, or a magnet buff. Any of those would have made it a lot better...

 

[trash?]

Ness pk fires a shield, he is at a safe distance away even if they could buffer a roll out, and nets a free grab.

except reflex shows you can literally just SDI out of it without much trouble. this was from 2.5.

it probably would've even been easier now, because shield DI is a thing

like PK fire was NEVER good, because in general most of ness wasn't that amazing. it was mostly gimmicks that could be converted into some combos here and there

 

[The_NZA]

except reflex shows you can literally just SDI out of it without much trouble. this was from 2.5.

it probably would've even been easier now, because shield DI is a thing

like PK fire was NEVER good, because in general most of ness wasn't that amazing. it was mostly gimmicks that could be converted into some combos here and there

Not a gimmick. It was integral to Ness's play because it scared people out of shielding when you neeeded to commit a DJC fair. The entire fear of an aerial pkfire or a grounded pkfire in the middle of your neutral is what forced opponents to make mistakes in front of Ness's pretty telegraphed kit.

Also, I agree though that pkfire had a lot of counter play in 3.0 and it was only going to have much more in 3.5 with Shield DI. It was mostly important for punishing peoples' reactions to it...such as reading their buffered rolls or whether they were going to SDI up and jump, or whatever.

EDIT:

Also I got punished for PKFire plenty. I have no idea why its somehow being argued that it was a riskless proposition when it never was riskless. Good opponents always knew to wavedash forward so that they would pass the pkfire and be under Ness to start a pain train. Regardless, I'm not sure I care to argue that pkfire in 3.0 was good design because it wasn't. It was a stupid move....the problem is the complete lack of understanding to envision why it was important to Ness and how he would suffer without it. The downthrow change on top of that was simply made his combo game even worse after really bodying one of his few reliable tools to get a grab.

Honestly, 3.5 was fine if Ness got a tiny buff to better compete against Marth, Fox, Shiek, and whatever other scary characters are lurking in the dark to feast on him.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Yes, it's true, some matchups will be just as fine but many are going to be significantly harder to borderline impossible (7-3 or worse).

If you think 7-3 is borderline impossible, it's clear that you've never played an actually bad character.

Here's my hint for all of your counterplay to Ness. If he's in the air, hold shield because his only option is DJC->aerial, and all of his DJC approaches land him solidly in range for a punish with the exception of a perfectly spaced bair on some opponents (note--if your Marth, don't worry. Your shield grab will still beat this out).

You mean when he's in the air, he's at a disadvantage? Like the majority of characters in this game?

fwiw, you also have empty djc -> retreat (ie. waveland backwards into fsmash/dash attack/jump again + pkfire/whateveryouwant), empty djc -> tomahawk grab, crossup magnet into djc [any of the previous], etcetera.

If he dashes at you and gets close to you, he's going for a grab because he's got junk grab range.

If you're actually that predictable, it's no wonder you're losing.

Look, you could be entirely right -- it's possible that Ness is a bad (or perhaps even a terrible) character in this patch. Regardless, none of what you're saying is indicating anything other than a straight up refusal to investigate options that aren't incredibly straightforward approaches.

EDIT: I'm also not saying that you're a bad player or anything. That's just what your words seem to imply. I'm watching one of your recent games now to try to get a feel for your level, but Winners Finals at smashing grounds is no joke. I mean no disrespect.

EDIT 2: EDIT BOOGALOO: Okay, after watching a couple games, I think I can see part of the problem. You're an insanely aggressive player, which is fine, but it seems like you ignore a large part of what being aggressive in a game like Smash means: trying to create openings by baiting out unsafe commitments from your opponent. You don't do it much - instead it seems that you prefer to either
A: go completely ham and try to force your way in, train no brakes etc
B: hide behind PKF.
I mean, you don't really seem to use any movement tricks to bait stuff out (for example: jump in, B reverse magnet to hopefully avoid their attack into a DJC aerial of some type). You also don't seem to capitalize on the threat of the awesome spacing tool that is Ness's bat. Half the reason Marth's grab game is so vicious is because his opponents are necessarily scared of the sword; but you seem to ignore the bat entirely.

That said, I think you're probably a better player than me overall, so take it with a grain of salt. It's just that sometimes another pair of eyes can identify stuff in your blind spots, even if there's an experience gap.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

The severe lack of knowledge of Ness on these boards is preposterous. If you think an 8 frame magnet is somehow the silver bullet to Ness's neutral game, you actually don't really know the character. There is no amount of safe or even semi safe pressure Ness can apply to a shield of a lot of characters in this game, which is what makes some of his matchups absolutely atrocious. Yes, it's true, some matchups will be just as fine but many are going to be significantly harder to borderline impossible (7-3 or worse).

Here's my hint for all of your counterplay to Ness. If he's in the air, hold shield because his only option is DJC->aerial, and all of his DJC approaches land him solidly in range for a punish with the exception of a perfectly spaced bair on some opponents (note--if your Marth, don't worry. Your shield grab will still beat this out).

If he dashes at you and gets close to you, he's going for a grab because he's got junk grab range. Just shield until he's close and then punish.

If he tries to do a drifting magnet into you, just shield through the magnet and whatever aerial is going to follow, and punish. If he's severely underestimating your intelligence and chooses to wavedash out of magnet, just shield the magnet but punish the 10 frames of lag from the wavedash out of the magnet.

TL:DR Just shield and punish, and if he closes in for the grab, punish sooner.

Stick to the above rules and all you have to worry about is the occasionaly downtilt string.

For best results, use Marth or Fox.

EDIT: I actually have always rallied and still rally for pkfire to not activate on shield. But Ness could have afforded something in return to help him out v. shield. Now that his grabs are way worse, I'd say he can afford to have a grab range buff, a speed buff, or a magnet buff. Any of those would have made it a lot better...

You're thinking way too one dimensionally about all of this. You act as if you're in a certain position like in the air you're forced to come down on your opponents shield with an aerial, or if you're dashing at them, you NEED to grab and can't do anything else. And "Bair isn't safe on shield for one character in the game so obviously Ness has an awful approach" Add more dimensions to your game, if you're in the air, don't think you have to do an aerial, you could tomahawk grab, waveland, or magnet and jump away so you're safe. If you're dashing at them, you could wavedash back if you think they'll throw out a move, dash attack, grab, run past pivot grab, etc. etc. If you started thinking like that instead of thinking that ness is now awful because he doesn't have a 50/50 mixup between djc pkf and fair on someones shield then maybe you'd do better.

Edit: This is what people mean when people talk about relying on gimmicks vs. having fundamentals.

 

[didds]

shine is not a gimmick, shine is a powerful tool.
pkfire 3.02 was not a gimmick, it was a powerful and annoying tool.
A move being over centralized and unhealthy for game design does not make it a gimmick.

maybe I'm just crazy, but I always thought a gimmick was a fairly weak, yet niche tool that pretty much only works due to it's obscurity.

Melee yoshi using egg lay to get you off stage while dropping past the ledge is a gimmick. DK suicide cargo is a gimmick.

Just had to get this out there.

People rarely rely on gimmicks, they usually rely on overpowered spam

 

[The_NZA]

You're thinking way too one dimensionally about all of this. You act as if you're in a certain position like in the air you're forced to come down on your opponents shield with an aerial, or if you're dashing at them, you NEED to grab and can't do anything else. And "Bair isn't safe on shield for one character in the game so obviously Ness has an awful approach" Add more dimensions to your game, if you're in the air, don't think you have to do an aerial, you could tomahawk grab, waveland, or magnet and jump away so you're safe. If you're dashing at them, you could wavedash back if you think they'll throw out a move, dash attack, grab, run past pivot grab, etc. etc. If you started thinking like that instead of thinking that ness is now awful because he doesn't have a 50/50 mixup between djc pkf and fair on someones shield then maybe you'd do better.

Edit: This is what people mean when people talk about relying on gimmicks vs. having fundamentals.

Those are valid points but consider Ness's fall speed paired with his junk range. Ness has the 34th worst fast fall in the game. If i'm shorthopping towards you, its a pretty slow option for me to fast fall into a grab. I can DJC it to cancel my altitude gain, getting me to the ground quicker to do an option, but DJCing requires you to use an aerial which = more landing lag. Its exactly why what "Odds" was saying doesn't work. You cant DJC an empty jump backwards into a dash grab.

Basically I have to use my mobility much more to force a bad engagement, which is fine. But I don't have the types of obvious pressure (projectile, good grab range, good speed, good disjoints) to actually pressure a shied.

 

[Boiko]

Here's my hint for all of your counterplay to Ness. If he's in the air, hold shield because his only option is DJC->aerial, and all of his DJC approaches land him solidly in range for a punish with the exception of a perfectly spaced bair on some opponents (note--if your Marth, don't worry. Your shield grab will still beat this out).

No. Not at all. Why would you DJC>aerial a shield when none of his aerials are safe on shield? Also, you're saying, "DJC approaches" which is indicative enough that you're not playing the character correctly. Ness is not meant to approach.

If he dashes at you and gets close to you, he's going for a grab because he's got junk grab range. Just shield until he's close and then punish.

Once again, this would never be a good option.

If he tries to do a drifting magnet into you, just shield through the magnet and whatever aerial is going to follow, and punish. If he's severely underestimating your intelligence and chooses to wavedash out of magnet, just shield the magnet but punish the 10 frames of lag from the wavedash out of the magnet.

The great thing about mag dashing is that it allows you to cross up your opponent with a move that's safe on shield. But still, why go run and mag dash into an opponent that is grounded?

TL:DR Just shield and punish, and if he closes in for the grab, punish sooner.

Forcing your opponent to shield isn't necessarily a bad thing.

For best results, use Marth or Fox.

And make sure you don't mess up because if you get grabbed/usmashed/utilted/dash attacked by Ness, say hello to over 100%!

NZA, I typically agree with a lot of the points you make, but I think you're very wrong in assuming Ness received the heavy here. The character has one of the hardest punish games in 3.5 and now that recoveries are nerfed across the board, his edge guarding is incredible and safe. For a majority of the cast, sweet spotting the ledge against Ness is extremely important because his super fast forward tilt hits hard and far. He also has magnet off stage, rising nair/dair, PK Thunder/Flash harassment, etc.

The simple fact is Ness isn't meant to be an aggro, shield pressure applying character. He is meant to keep safe pressure on his opponent and capitalize when they do something punishable. Think of melee Marth, but instead of a sword, he has a projectile and deeper edge guarding.

 

[Spralwers]

The "7-3 is borderline impossible" assessment is perfectly fair in context of a tournament set. You can interpret the ratio a few different ways: of 10 matches, one wins 7, the other wins 3. But since tournament sets are generally bo3s, and much later on, bo5s, it's more useful to look at the ratio like this: the person on the winning end will win 2-3 matches before the person on the losing end takes 1. In a bo3 set, this translates to a solid 2-0. In a bo5, this translates to a 3-1. I'd actually argue it's impossible for someone on the losing end to win a tourney set with such odds, unless their opponents does not play the MU correctly.

Also the word "gimmick" needs to be used more carefully and everyone who uses the word should define what they mean by it. so many different interpretations: something that makes a character unique, something that's overcentralizing to a character's gameplay, something that's only effective against people that don't know how to deal with it (that's my interpretation), and a bunch more.

 

[Ya Boy GP]

Those are valid points but consider Ness's fall speed paired with his junk range. Ness has the 34th worst fast fall in the game. If i'm shorthopping towards you, its a pretty slow option for me to fast fall into a grab. I can DJC it to cancel my altitude gain, getting me to the ground quicker to do an option, but DJCing requires you to use an aerial which = more landing lag. Its exactly why what "Odds" was saying doesn't work. You cant DJC an empty jump backwards into a dash grab.

Basically I have to use my mobility much more to force a bad engagement, which is fine. But I don't have the types of obvious pressure (projectile, good grab range, good speed, good disjoints) to actually pressure a shied.

Don't think about it so scientifically. Think about it from a player vs. player perspective. If you've conditioned your opponent to think that if you're in the air, you're going to djc into a move on their shield, they're going to blindly shield until they see that your moves shield stun has ended. If you shorthop, they're going to wait for the move to come out and sit in shield. If you hit the floor without doing a djc cancel and then grab, 99% of the time they won't react quick enough to spotdodge your grab.

 

[Rizner]

Is the general idea here that shield pressure is fine as long as it isn't easy to do without some practice, and that is why spacie shield pressure is good but pkfire wasn't?

 

[Ripple]

no, it wasn't fine for PK fire because ness the character wasn't doing shield pressure for 100 frames. it was a pillar of fire that allowed ness to move freely about and do what he pleased. the same with razor leaf. even IF people SDI out of the fire pillar pressure, there is still a pillar of flames right in front of you that ness can just run through and you can't do anything about except jump because another PK fire tha ness would throw out would mean he gets a free grab or insane stage positioning with flames still being there.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Honestly if you played Ness back in Melee where recoveries were nowhere near as good, the fact that you can rising DJ aerial alone would've been a godsend to you.

 

[The_NZA]

*shrugs* I'll keep practicing, trying, perfecting my movement, and doing my best to win. But I absolutely do feel Ness has to work harder than most of the characters in 3.5 to score results. Now, I'll say this much--Ness definitely has a lot of nice even matchups. But some matchups look really really bad. As in one or two points better than Melee. The sad part is, I think Ness probably had less truly godawful matchups in 3.02 than he does in 3.5. It just feels like Ness is a more polarized character now.

Also, wtf is with these presuppositions and messed up opinions that somehow I don't have good fundamentals or didn't play Melee. I made it out of NSA 2 pools in Melee (200+ entrants, if I remember correctly) using exclusively Ness. I played Melee, but I don't want to play a bottom 5 character anymore. It's really just that. I don't want to have to bank on hard reads every stock for three games hoping I win a best of 5 against a really good Fox.

 

[Boiko]

*shrugs* I'll keep practicing, trying, perfecting my movement, and doing my best to win. But I absolutely do feel Ness has to work harder than most of the characters in 3.5 to score results. Now, I'll say this much--Ness definitely has a lot of nice even matchups. But some matchups look really really bad. As in one or two points better than Melee. The sad part is, I think Ness probably had less truly godawful matchups in 3.02 than he does in 3.5. It just feels like Ness is a more polarized character now.

Also, wtf is with these presuppositions and messed up opinions that somehow I don't have good fundamentals or didn't play Melee. I made it out of NSA 2 pools in Melee (200+ entrants, if I remember correctly) using exclusively Ness. I played Melee, but I don't want to play a bottom 5 character anymore. It's really just that. I don't want to have to bank on hard reads every stock for three games hoping I win a best of 5 against a really good Fox.

Just wondering what MUs you have trouble with?
I know some are definitely really difficult, not taking that away from you.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

little interactions that are kinda dumb: when fox usmashes lucas' shield, the shield pushback is enough to push lucas out of grab range. Fox basically has a punish-free usmash, because in the time it takes lucas to get back to fox, fox can just shine or usmash again.

I mean lucas can reset to neutral, wavedash oos away and fire some pk freezies but idk the fact that fox has an upsmash that either resets to neutral or kills you is kinda annoying

Or maybe I'm just bad at playing