Tier List Speculation

[didds]

Flutter jump shuffle (Down air for Yoshi) is pretty broken, even in Smash 4 if it manages to land, it's a free 32% into an up smash.

Dair is a little too potent imo, but Yoshi is still somewhat under the radar so shush. I honestly think the main thing in need of tweaking for Yoshi is his egg roll. Decent shield stun, good priority, low lag, good setups. There's just so much good for a move with fairly small commitment, but still it's not broken.

Down B is broken though lol, soooooo gudd

 

[Engage]

@ didds I've faced plentful of Yoshi's, and each time I'd have to deal with Short hop fast falls for down airs. But, he's not a bad character at all, I actually gave a thought to making him a secondary, his bair is nice.

 

[didds]

wait til you deal with a Yoshi who camps the top platform. DJC dair reaches the ground incredibly quick and leads to whatever Yoshi desires if it hits.

 

[Boiko]

Raptor is the one of the best PM Yoshi players and our tournament record is 8-4 me. Yoshi has tons of weaknesses. It's just a matter of exploiting them.

 

[1FD]

I didn't actually quit Wolf because I thought it was the smart thing to do btw.
I stopped playing Wolf because I play Fox in Melee and it felt like I was playing another heavily input based character and I enjoyed Snake's gameplay which felt different.

If I was to play Wolf though, I genuinely feel like I would be the best by quite a margin, and I'm pretty sure I'm better than some well-known wolf mains right now lol.

Also I agree that his metagame is overall un-optimized and undeveloped, probably because of the tech skill barrier and no-one pushing the character to it's limits.
Not really sure if I'm up for the challenge either, I know it will be a lot of work, and I would have to want to do it, which I currently don't lol
I just enjoy playing him in friendlies atm.

Noob! Go play wolf! jkz but not really

I remember on smashmods you and bamesy were talking and he told me you would be good as soon as something clicked so I was watching you because I loved wolf and was stoked to see it happen
Then you picked up snake and I guess that was the click lol
Still love you but not for the same reasons anymore
I'm sure you 2 would shoot wolf into the spotlight if you put work into him. Most wolfs today look worse than his did in 2.1, and he's not even good now and he never plays to get good again and your snake makes his wolf and all other wolfs look like trash and would probably have a wolf as good as his and others because of how much you work on PM in general.

Now neither of you play him since you're a snake and he's afk since Jan and there's just scrubs like me left to complain about how the people who aren't as scrubby as me don't do the things that scrubs like me want good players like you and wolf players to do.
lol I'd ditto your wolf in mm if we ever meet but I doubt it since I'm crap and don't travel and in nowhereland. But that would be fun if it ever happens.

Wolf is god
Wolf is love
Wolf is life

Yoshi is probably even better though not as cool

^ above posted
Raptor is cool but him going even with gallos mario (who's a really good player with a character considered way better than yoshi usually) but when he's not even coming close to doing what yoshi is capable of is a sign that yoshi is a beast
tldr I wanna see what Raptor does because he's awesome but what he's doing now isn't as exciting as what I KNOW he's gonna do as he keeps getting better. Him being good + having so much improvement coming all the time is what makes me stoked on him as a player with that character

 

[trash?]

quick reminder that footstools are pretty much the death of yoshi

gets footstooled? no jump, he can't do anything
tries to put out an aerial to stop the footstool? no armor, hit him down, he can't do anything

reflex has been preaching the joys of footstools for YEARS now and nobody wants to use them

 

[Strong Badam]

quick reminder that footstools are pretty much the death of yoshi
gets footstooled? no jump, he can't do anything
tries to put out an aerial to stop the footstool? no armor, hit him down, he can't do anything

hmm a 50/50 for edgegaurd/recovery

isn't this what people want out of 3.5

 

[jtm94]

Footstools don't do anything to Yoshi. It's just a movement for people to think the dinosaur sucks.
Turns out you can do a rising aerial if someone tries to footstool you. It is indeed a 50/50 Yoshi has fair recovery.

Snakes C4 makes Yoshi fall like a rock if you detonate while Yoshi has DJ armor. Talk about not fun.

 

[TheGravyTrain]

Yeah, this is kind of true. As a Ness main, I don't believe PKF is broken, but I'm all for him getting buffs in other areas so he doesn't have to rely on it so heavily. Also, lol @ PK Ness.

Pk fire is pretty polarizing. For really mobile characters, it isn't a big deal. But against characters such as Charizard, DDD, and other fatties, it is a nightmare because their primary response to projectiles is shielding. I am all for Pk fire nerf (or a rethinking...) and some buffs in other areas.

 

[JOE!]

Doesnt falco's shine also beat out the DJ armor at any %?

 

[Strong Badam]

Not at *any* percent, but certainly an ungodly low percent compared to other moves. That move has 110 BKB. A very Melee-like move~

 

[Ripple]

D3 primary response to pk fire Is not shielding.

Can people just stop talking about DDD altogether? No one seems to have any idea how he functions at all

 

[Frost | Odds]

D3 primary response to pk fire Is not shielding.

Can people just stop talking about DDD altogether? No one seems to have any idea how he functions at all

He looks like so much fun, but yeah, I don't get him. Feels like trying to pilot a lubed-up grand piano in a demolition derby.

Yoshi is also one of my favorite designs.

Stronk? Check
Incredible capabilities behind a serious tech wall? Check
Unique? Check
Obvious weaknesses? Check
Not immediately, obviously, horrifically polarized MUs? Check

 

[TheGravyTrain]

D3 primary response to pk fire Is not shielding.

Can people just stop talking about DDD altogether? No one seems to have any idea how he functions at all

Isn't his primary response to projectiles to shield them? I didn't say he should shield pk fire, just that he normally shields projectiles. Is that incorrect?

 

[Ripple]

That is indeed incorrect

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Clearly the correct response to projectiles for the great Dedede is to throw his minions at them

Let the lesser souls take the punishment for their monarch as he guides his hammer to victory.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Clearly the correct response to projectiles for the great Dedede is to throw his minions at them

Let the lesser souls take the punishment for their monarch as he guides his hammer to victory.

How do you play D3? Other than shieldgrabbing all the things.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

quick reminder that footstools are pretty much the death of yoshi

gets footstooled? no jump, he can't do anything
tries to put out an aerial to stop the footstool? no armor, hit him down, he can't do anything

reflex has been preaching the joys of footstools for YEARS now and nobody wants to use them

Tetraflora has been doing them for a while too, when people shield too much he does footstool > down B with Kirby.

 

[trash?]

that's a thing I mentioned in a tech video when kirby came out!! oh cripes I might have had a point with that video

kirby's footstools are so good though, I get really grumpy that chu is the only high-end player because he's holding himself back hard by not using 90% of kirby's actual tools

look, if you looked at my icons for a moment you would notice I really like kirby and that's because HE'S GREAT OKAY

 

[Jacob29]

quick reminder that footstools are pretty much the death of yoshi

gets footstooled? no jump, he can't do anything
tries to put out an aerial to stop the footstool? no armor, hit him down, he can't do anything

reflex has been preaching the joys of footstools for YEARS now and nobody wants to use them

As much credit as I can give for preaching footstools doesn't Reflex play wario?

one of the characters with the best aerial movement?

so doesn't that make his footstools way easy to get off than other slower characters who will have trouble easily positioning themselves above Yoshi?

You too are a Kirby player who has a lot of jumps and if unsuccessful with a footstool you can relatively easily make it back to the stage without risk.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Wolf/CF's footstools are sicknasty too. You have to be accurate as hell, but because of their running -> air speed and fall speed, getting there in time is ezpz. Wolf can use it in combos too I think, but I'm not good enough for that, and have no time to practice of late.

 

[Phan7om]

I honestly think Peach's footstools are easily one of the best tho

 

[Deleted member]

Can people just stop talking about DDD altogether? No one seems to have any idea how he functions at all

same, but with tink

 

[trash?]

You too are a Kirby player who has a lot of jumps and if unsuccessful with a footstool you can relatively easily make it back to the stage without risk.

I mean... actually yeah kind of

also, it's really good for shield pressure because of how footstools handle shields in this game. also the aforementioned footstool into downb, so you get more mixups in the air after you footstool someone on the ground

footstool more w/ kirby pls. kirby players make canon a sad baby

 

[Soft Serve]

Footstool talk? see sig
Item characters have fantastic footstool abilities, heres an old video I made of diddy, Heres another selfless promotion

Reflex has been talking footstools for a year or two now, they are soo good. Any character with a move that changes their air mobility fast can combo out of a footstool. DJC characters get free whatever if someone presents them a shield. on short characters, Lucas/Wolf can transition seamlessly from shine/magnet>footstool, for lucas its an actual link on kirby. Wolf gets nair>shine>footstool>shine, depending on character height its a frametrap, and he gets a free juggle/combo off it. Peach/M2 can also float and do anything they want, Item characters get a free AGT, some get follow up off it. Spacies get foostool>shine, some characters like ganon, Lucario and ivy get footstool>dair on most of the cast, GnW gets footstool>up-b>combo, snake can also footstool>up-b,pikachu gets sdi-able INFINITE with QAC and footstools. My favorite is M2's shadowball> TP>footstool>DJC Dair>anything.
On top of that its also a fantastic edge guarding tool, you just hit your footstool button and then your regular edgeguarding tool, and it covers a load of options.
Shielding wont be safe in PM because the moment you present your shield to a spacie/DJC character/Item character, you're going to get blown up and comboed.

Thats all metagaming hypothetical stuff but there are people that do use it a lot, its picking up steam. See Nephiros/dooof's combo videos where he and tetraflora do it alot. Reflex does it, Lucas's like Neon and Yars do it, Socal does it, its broken man.

I dont think it would really change any tier-lists because it doesn't effect neutral at all, and characters that can use it as a shield-breaker normally already have really good neutral and shield pressure strings/traps. Those that don't (ganon, bowser, Link, etc) realistically shouldn't be getting at a shield in the first place, so it doesn't change much for them imo. It does effect punish games and edgeguardings a lot.

 

[Professor Pro]

considering you play a character with no weaknesses

I play Mewtwo?

 

[Bazkip]

I play Mewtwo?

What are you talking about?
Mewtwo's weak to Bug, Dark and Ghost

 

[TreK]

Shameless self promotion since we're talking about footstools
I did a video for Ivysaur last week : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Z9iwac4JCo

There was one I forgot to add because comparatively, it's not as good, but it's universal : if you footstool somebody under a platform, you can waveland and do any aerial you want. If you're on Smashville, you can PC-drop do to it even faster.

So yeah. Footstools are good and stuff. At least grounded ones.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Footstools will never be used until they are easier to access. Just make 'em use the same button as jump, like in Brawl. I think once that is implemented, you'll see a bit more usage of it.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Please no, In brawl and smash 4 footstools occur unintentionally. You will see more people use footstools when more people use footstools, simple as that.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Please no, In brawl and smash 4 footstools occur unintentionally. You will see more people use footstools when more people use footstools, simple as that.

This is wrong, when you're above someone, you hit jump and you footstool them. Lol I have never ever accidentally footstooled while trying to jump.

 

[Strong Badam]

Footstools will never be used until they are easier to access. Just make 'em use the same button as jump, like in Brawl. I think once that is implemented, you'll see a bit more usage of it.

The current implementation is more accessible than Brawl's....

 

[victinivcreate1]

The current implementation is more accessible than Brawl's....

How so? Brawl was literally guide towards opponent then pres jump.

This implementation is guide towards player then switch handgrip and press taunt. I would normally change my controls, but my custom control scheme is already full because there was a time when I played 4 different characters lol.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

This is wrong, when you're above someone, you hit jump and you footstool them. Lol I have never ever accidentally footstooled while trying to jump.

In brawl when someone does a footstool they go, "Oh ****, freaking footstools man." But then occasionally they get a follow up off of it so then after the match they go, "Yo man did you see that sick footstool combo I pulled off?"

All of your footstools were accidental, you're not fooling me

 

[victinivcreate1]

In brawl when someone does a footstool they go, "Oh ****, freaking footstools man." But then occasionally they get a follow up off of it so then after the match they go, "Yo man did you see that sick footstool combo I pulled off?"

All of your footstools were accidental, you're not fooling me

http://www.ssbwiki.com/Vertical_spacing#Footstool_spike
Intentional

 

[mimgrim]

This implementation is guide towards player then switch handgrip and press taunt. I would normally change my controls, but my custom control scheme is already full.

^This is pretty much the reason I don't even try to use footstools. No room on my control scheme either. :L

 

[Boiko]

You guys and your crazy custom controls.

 

[Strong Badam]

How so? Brawl was literally guide towards opponent then pres jump.

This implementation is guide towards player then switch handgrip and press taunt. I would normally change my controls, but my custom control scheme is already full because there was a time when I played 4 different characters lol.

The vast majority of players have at least 1 available button, even those who map Attack to a shoulder button for DACUS. Needs of the many etc

 

[victinivcreate1]

The vast majority of players have at least 1 available button, even those who map Attack to a shoulder button for DACUS. Needs of the many etc

I understand the concept of being unable to cater to all players
Struggle of bein' a dev,

 

[GP&B]

It's a very common instance for some characters to want to DJ just above their opponent and FF an aerial into them. Brawl Footstooling interferes with this. If you use the standard controller scheme, just map footstool to your unused jump button and it's not an issue any longer.