Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

lets just give marth a teleport and call it a day

 

[Boiko]

Marth is pretty bad in PM. Just saying.

 

[steelguttey]

considering he ****s every main ive ever had you may be right but i sure do hate him

 

[Bleck]

At least we're speculating about tier list placings and character design instead of taking poorly concealed jabs at melee and acting smug about it.

I think you're confusing Canon with me.

 

[Strong Badam]

Also I love how little people know about wario, please amuse me with what you think you know.

Bro Wario is top tier I seen him on Video Boot camp before.

 

[trash?]

we really need more popular streams. gimr hogging up all the metagame to the average viewer

 

[Unkown Hero]

Bro Wario is top tier I seen him on Video Boot camp before.

Hey Strong Bad, is it ok if I start a conversation with you about Project M. It's just that I have a few questions I would like to ask and @Hong suggested I ask you.

 

[Professor Pro]

chillin and basically all others I've seen (rat/scythe/sw/etc) are like average 2.6 Wolfs. Went over this plenty in this thread, but at least prof pro was smart and dropped wolf when he was basically doing the same thing that all of them were, but maybe he would have opened games wolf up like he opened up snakes.
The metagame is still SUPER far behind where it easily could be.


Soft sever above edit
SW does too much WL attempts on platforms into multishines and things that don't go anywhere. It's like how his Fox used to avoid doing Uthrow Uair for no reason. One day, he'll click and bam straight to goodness. Yeah, chillin is really well conditioned but that comes with conditions that aren't beneficial too, so he'll eventually grind them out.
Prof pro pick up wolf again, I wanna see if you can open it up now that you're done with snake and know how to do that with a char
Wolf is sheik with a knee

I didn't actually quit Wolf because I thought it was the smart thing to do btw.
I stopped playing Wolf because I play Fox in Melee and it felt like I was playing another heavily input based character and I enjoyed Snake's gameplay which felt different.

If I was to play Wolf though, I genuinely feel like I would be the best by quite a margin, and I'm pretty sure I'm better than some well-known wolf mains right now lol.

Also I agree that his metagame is overall un-optimized and undeveloped, probably because of the tech skill barrier and no-one pushing the character to it's limits.
Not really sure if I'm up for the challenge either, I know it will be a lot of work, and I would have to want to do it, which I currently don't lol
I just enjoy playing him in friendlies atm.

 

[Boiko]

I didn't actually quit Wolf because I thought it was the smart thing to do btw.
I stopped playing Wolf because I play Fox in Melee and it felt like I was playing another heavily input based character and I enjoyed Snake's gameplay which felt different.

If I was to play Wolf though, I genuinely feel like I would be the best by quite a margin, and I'm pretty sure I'm better than some well-known wolf mains right now lol.

Also I agree that his metagame is overall un-optimized and undeveloped, probably because of the tech skill barrier and no-one pushing the character to it's limits.
Not really sure if I'm up for the challenge either, I know it will be a lot of work, and I would have to want to do it, which I currently don't lol
I just enjoy playing him in friendlies atm.

I play Wolf as a secondary and although I don't think I would win, I bet I would give you a run for your money in the ditto. I'll find ya at Apex.

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

To clear things up...

 

[Professor Pro]

I play Wolf as a secondary and although I don't think I would win, I bet I would give you a run for your money in the ditto. I'll find ya at Apex.

Sounds good. I'm down

Hopefully PM is at Apex, I've heard stories saying it might not be, because of Nintendo's involvement, though it's ultimately up to how much Alex Strife cares about the smash community.

 

[shairn]

we really need more popular streams. gimr hogging up all the metagame to the average viewer

Maybe he should restream us more often

 

[Deleted member]

Toon Link's recovery sucks buns.

slob on my knob like corn on tha cob

my **** rains bombs like its christmas in gaza

*** ****

 

[trash?]

dude, there's like at least three other characters who can recover from anywhere in this game, and they don't have to damage themselves to absurd percents for it to happen

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

dude, there's like at least three other characters who can recover from anywhere in this game, and they don't have to damage themselves to absurd percents for it to happen

Snake disagrees.

 

[trash?]

he's got the same problem tho

why use a technically advanced trick like TL's hardcore recovery when you can woop woop in half the effort and twice the advantage

 

[Foo]

he's got the same problem tho

why use a technically advanced trick like TL's hardcore recovery when you can woop woop in half the effort and twice the advantage

Something doesn't need to be the best, or even top 10, to be really really good.

 

[trash?]

brawl's cast was also kind of balanced when you take off the top ten, too, that means absolutely nothing in the face of characters that can do everything you can do a thousand times better, and everyone plays only those characters anyways

 

[Bleck]

Something doesn't need to be the best, or even top 10, to be really really good.

"you don't have to be the best to be the best"

 

[MLGF]

People always say the games are balanced when you take out X, but there are so few examples of taking out X that I don't think that it ever works. Low Tier side events haven't been a thing for Melee/Brawl for a while and PM doesn't even have them at all. I refuse to make an argument of balance when it's clear we have no basic.

 

[Foo]

"you don't have to be the best to be the best"

Yeah, that's TOTALLY what I said. "Really really good" equals "the best" totally. I'm not saying TL's recover is OP, I'm not saying toonlink is OP. I'm saying his recovery is really good. As most people have posted (including both of you, iirc) recoveries in the game are way too good.

If, hypothetically every character in the game could auto sweetspot ledge from anywhere on the screen while putting a big hitbox on the stage in one frame except one character didn't have a hitbox with it, that character would have the worst recovery in the game. However, that character's recovery would still be really really good, and would be too good. Better and best are relative to other characters, "good" is relative to the overall game mechanics.

@ trash? Correct me if I was wrong, but it sounded like you were implying toon link's recovery is bad.

 

[Deleted member]

@ trash? Correct me if I was wrong, but it sounded like you were implying toon link's recovery is bad.

he DOES have a good point

 

[trash?]

it's the effect that most characters have, tbh

toon link's recovery is good, sure. I ain't ever going to call it bad, by any means. it just holds a severe disadvantage that it's not as flawless and forgiving as someone like mewtwo's.

if you can't jank with the best, then you have to be a bit more reasonable with the rest

 

[Deleted member]

there's a lot to be said for having the best not broken_and_will_ovbiously_be_nerfed recovery

 

[TheGravyTrain]

I think puff is very hard to buff without making her too similar to Kirby or broken because let's face it: Rest is broken. The only reason it doesn't seem broken is because its on a character with one other good move. It's overcentralizing her gameplay. Aside from trying to land a rest all she has is a neutral game. Condition the opponent to expect bairs and do something else like a fair or DACUS or nair or Pound or whatever average mixup she has.

I strongly agree. I personally think rest has two options going ahead: 1) Nerf its kill power to 60-80 percent range and make it less punishable on miss. 2) (my favorite) Make it almost never kill, but almost always set up for a decent edgeguard opportunity, higher percents being easier.

From there they can make jigglypuff actually have combos without fear of broken rest...

 

[mimgrim]

About the Wolf talk. I really wanna learn a pocket Wolf. But goddamn the amount of button presses. He might not be Fox, but there are still a lot of buttons needed to be pressed for him. A lot of fast button presses was the reason I stopped playing Fox in Melee when I got into competitive play. When I was a casual who only played with friends and didn't know about any techs or anything about competitive play I basically mained Fox. Got into competitive play and went lolnope. Ain't no way I'm doing all that. I don't get along well with a lot of fast button presses lol.

 

[Soft Serve]

About the Wolf talk. I really wanna learn a pocket Wolf. But goddamn the amount of button presses. He might not be Fox, but there are still a lot of buttons needed to be pressed for him. A lot of fast button presses was the reason I stopped playing Fox in Melee when I got into competitive play. When I was a casual who only played with friends and didn't know about any techs or anything about competitive play I basically mained Fox. Got into competitive play and went lolnope. Ain't no way I'm doing all that. I don't get along well with a lot of fast button presses lol.

From my experience wolf has to press more buttons than fox, mostly due to wavelanding every lasers. Everyone should play wolf though, wolf only, no items, PS2.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I just need to say that recovery nerfs by themselves probably aren't moving characters that far up or down in terms of viability, more like it would tighten up the gaps in viability by allowing characters centralized on gimping to have a punish game more comparable to characters who can combo into straight kill. I keep reading posts of people saying "such-character will be so much better in 3.5 because recovery nerfs, they rely on gimping!" but that doesn't mean the characters who rely on straight kills are getting any worse. Seems like kinda silly thinking.

 

[LunarWingCloud]

Pikachu's tier is so accurate it hurts.

Toon Lunchables is the best though.

 

[Engage]

DK is god tier, period. Rolls for years.

 

[victinivcreate1]

While we're talking about Wolf,

Lol how bout we get Hax to go Wolf? Its a Falcon with a shine, extendable knee, and better recovery! Who wouldn't want that.

Wolf is gdlk and everyone should not play him until I come to some national and wreck with him (which might either be really soon or a while lol)

 

[Bleck]

Yeah, that's TOTALLY what I said. "Really really good" equals "the best" totally. I'm not saying TL's recover is OP, I'm not saying toonlink is OP. I'm saying his recovery is really good. As most people have posted (including both of you, iirc) recoveries in the game are way too good.

I'm not disagreeing with you; I just think it's disingenuous to complain about something being too good when other characters in the same context are much much better

 

[Boiko]

Sounds good. I'm down

Hopefully PM is at Apex, I've heard stories saying it might not be, because of Nintendo's involvement, though it's ultimately up to how much Alex Strife cares about the smash community.

Worst case, I'll bring a set up and we'll play in a bathroom stall or something.

 

[Foo]

I'm not disagreeing with you; I just think it's disingenuous to complain about something being too good when other characters in the same context are much much better

How so? Can I not complain about PK fire being BS because it's not fireballs or because Ness isn't an OP character overall? I mean, saying toonlink's recover implies that all other recoveries better than his are too good as well.

 

[Bleck]

How so? Can I not complain about PK fire being BS because it's not fireballs or because Ness isn't an OP character overall?

no, because pk fire wouldn't have to be so ridiculous if other much better characters didn't have tools that make it look trivial in comparison

 

[Deleted member]

I mean, saying toonlink's recover implies that all other recoveries better than his are too good as well.

as far as a base implication goes, you're not wrong but it's simply more complicated than that because everything is relative. we have to draw the line somewhere and its ultimately subjective at best. or it's just totally arbitrary and capricious and PM is actually an exercise to make children suffer.

ironically sethlon was much closer at getting everyone to BURN! with 2.5 sonic than he ever was at roy

 

[Foo]

as far as a base implication goes, you're not wrong but it's simply more complicated than that because everything is relative. we have to draw the line somewhere and its ultimately subjective at best.

Exactly, and I was simply stating that toon link's recovery is past that line, though only just. I think the only character that can recover from literally anywhere who's recovery isn't too good is charizard.

no, because pk fire wouldn't have to be so ridiculous if other much better characters didn't have tools that make it look trivial in comparison

How on earth is a game supposed to become balanced and fun if you only nerf the single most broken thing in each category? The reason PK fire "has" to be so ridiculous is not because there are better projectiles. Sonic has NO projectiles and he is still broken as hell. No, the reason PK fire "has" to be broken is PK ness is lacking in other areas. He is over centralized on that move because its risk-reward is way out of whack. The way to fix things like that is to take away some of PK fire's strength, and then put it somewhere else it's needed.

 

[mimgrim]

I think the only character that can recover from literally anywhere who's recovery isn't too good is charizard.

*cough*Dedede*cough*

 

[Bleck]

How on earth is a game supposed to become balanced and fun if you only nerf the single most broken thing in each category?

yeah I don't think that's ever actually happened

 

[Boiko]

How on earth is a game supposed to become balanced and fun if you only nerf the single most broken thing in each category? The reason PK fire "has" to be so ridiculous is not because there are better projectiles. Sonic has NO projectiles and he is still broken as hell. No, the reason PK fire "has" to be broken is PK ness is lacking in other areas. He is over centralized on that move because its risk-reward is way out of whack. The way to fix things like that is to take away some of PK fire's strength, and then put it somewhere else it's needed.

Yeah, this is kind of true. As a Ness main, I don't believe PKF is broken, but I'm all for him getting buffs in other areas so he doesn't have to rely on it so heavily. Also, lol @ PK Ness.