Tier List Speculation

[TreK]

I told you guys already, Marth is not actually a sword character. He's a grappler that hits you with his chest and bare hands like an overly manly Canadian lumberjack. The sword is a lie.

 

[MLGF]

Marth is the best grappler character in FG's ever.

 

[CyberZixx]

pretty sure I've been saying this for years at this point and people keep putting me down for it

same thing with his grab, really - why does the character who supposedly requires delicate spacing have literally the most forgiving grab range in the game

If they nerfed Marth's grab range he would legit be trash. Reality is many characters in PM rely on their grabs to be good.

 

[Player -0]

Now if his throws were compensated for free tippers after with no spacing we might be talking. Also free Dair by ledge.

 

[Bleck]

If they nerfed Marth's grab range he would legit be trash. Reality is many characters in PM rely on their grabs to be good.

maybe in the PM environment, yeah - but I'd argue that a lot of grab ranges and forgiving hitboxes only currently exist in PM because characters like Marth stood as an example

 

[Boiko]

Marth has many other glaring weaknesses in PM. His grab range makes sense IMO and should probably be left alone.

 

[shairn]

If Marth was a PM character there would be no DI to escape fthrow tipper fsmash.

 

[MLGF]

Always said Marth's viability should be the base of all characters, pretty much the best designed character in Melee, at least competitively, IMO

 

[Player -0]

If Marth was a PM character there would be no DI to escape fthrow tipper fsmash.

That's why we have Ivysaur to make Marth look like one.

 

[Paradoxium]

Most Marths use fthrow way too much, they forget that his dthrow exists

 

[Player -0]

Sometimes I try to use F-Throw to mixup if my opponent is by the ledge and a D-Throw would send them off.

Needless to say everyone always expects an F-Throw because it's used all the time. Althrough B-Throw with Roy when they expect an F-Throw is awesome. It sends pretty far.

 

[shairn]

Most Marths use fthrow way too much, they forget that his dthrow exists

Dthrow isn't good on all characters, it's laggier than fthrow which means that following up on tech away just isn't possible sometimes. It's very good in certain situations, like tech traps, getting tippers on floaties, but fthrow is pretty much always a good option too with easier followups.

 

[Frost | Odds]

I was only half joking, he's on some quasi-spritual journey/retreat in the mountains in Western Canada.

Really? Holy hell, I should find him and be his spirit guide

 

[Blank Mauser]

Marth really doesn't need a blindspot. Blindspots are huge vulnerabilities. You could pretty much always overshoot distances against Marth as a space animal/any fast character and not have any consequence. You wouldn't have to fear tipper, so there'd be no risk in doing so.

 

[leekslap]

If they nerfed Marth's grab range he would legit be trash. Reality is many characters in PM rely on their grabs to be good.

I guess that's why Ganon is such trash lol

Why are people even thinking about nerfing Marth? If anything, they should meld some Brawl stuff to make him top tier again!

Speaking of changing Melee top tiers, what change you give them? I for one believe Sheik should get her old down throw. I mean, It's not that Sheik's bad, but everyone else is so much better. Well... except Puff for sure.

 

[1MachGO]

Are people complaining about Marth in P:M? Please.

 

[Deleted member]

I love how people constantly say marth is really good in pm

It's really, really really cute. <3

 

[Paradoxium]

I propose we make it so that Marth's combos don't suck when your opponent is over 80%, I don't like the idea of your opponent getting harder to kill the more damage you give them. I also don't like that idea when most of the cast can't be gimped.

 

[jtm94]

I can't tell you how many times I've been saved because a Marth or Roy was so close to me that when they went to fsmash or grab they stepped all the way to the other side of me and missed. To avoid Marth's ledge attack you can stand on the very edge and he will attack on the other side of you.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Marth is somewhere in mid tier in the current version, but probably the top of it though. If the next version closer resembles melee with the recoveries and stuff then he'll be high tier.

Sheik needs nothing done to her, unless something that wasn't ported right from melee is still left out. She, like marth, will flourish most likely in the new version, but not to the extent where she invalidates characters.

Also I love how little people know about wario, please amuse me with what you think you know.

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

wario is love wario is life

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Sheek still needs needle hitboxes to precede their hurtboxes so they beat more stuff.

Anyways I can imagine characters like Sheik, Marth, and D3 being more viable once recoveries are nerfed but I've heard that they will be high tier so many times I'm starting to not believe it out of spite. Like how many of the P:M gods will become even more broken once recoveries are fixed? It's easy to say Sheik has godlike edgeguarding and will be high tier again but for a character like MK who we've never even seen in a melee-like environment of generally reasonable recoveries, how much better will they be when they can actually consistently get a stock advantage from getting the opponent off stage? And all the characters with broken recoveries are getting nerfed, but also they won't have to deal with other characters' broken recoveries either.

I dunno though I'm a scrub.

In closing, PMDT pls buff peach.

tl;dr: shine is stupid

 

[Frost | Odds]

I love how people constantly say marth is really good in pm

It's really, really really cute. <3

He's 'really good' in the same way that tink is 'really good', though arguably a fair bit worse overall. Still, he can beat anyone in the cast, isn't completely invalidated by anyone, has a relatively smooth matchup curve, doesn't get completely hosed by the map list, etc.

The transition to PM wasn't super kind to him, but he was the third best character in Melee, so whatever. Plus the way the physics works (or maybe just the fact that there's more fatties now?), seems to make it harder to DI out of his throw->tippers.

 

[Deleted member]

IMO Marth being the "third best character in Melee" is purely based on the fact that his MU vs. spacies is near even. Without spacies, marth would definitely fall a lot lower and sheik would be #1

lets start a melee argument guys!

Everyone in this thread is stupid, I forgot why I even read anything here

 

[trash?]

but then jigglypuff and ice climbers vs. shiek, how u explain that

(oh christ no I WAS KIDDING CUT THAT OUT)

 

[1MachGO]

^ICs counter would be irrelevant since all Sheik players would have a pocket Peach/Falcon/Marth/Samus/Ganon to counter ICs.

IMO Marth being the "third best character in Melee" is purely based on the fact that his MU vs. spacies is near even. Without spacies, marth would definitely fall a lot lower and sheik would be #1

lets start a melee argument guys!

Everyone in this thread is stupid, I forgot why I even read anything here

Not true, Marth invalidates the most characters in the game after Sheik. His neutral game is theoretically broken at peak human play. Don't you think its fishy that all anti-Marth meta relies on "baiting Marth to do something punishable"? You have to literally count on the Marth player being worse than you.

With that said, spacies are a steroid to his tier list placement in terms of his ability to outplace Sheik. If spacies weren't in the game, he would be second, Puff and Falcon tied for third, Peach fourth, ICs fifth, Pikachu would be a semi-viable 6th, and everyone else wouldn't have a prayer (spacies actually help mid tiers a lot).

As for P:M, he is probably a solid high tier. He'll be slightly improved in the new update but I don't think he'll ever be Melee status.

 

[Deleted member]

Huh...? I think I see something in the distance...

Huh? Is that what I think it is?!?

IS IT TRUE?!?

 

[InfinityCollision]

Okay, clearly my suggestions earlier weren't enough.

Let's try this again. Marth needs... Brawl DB/usmash/counter, and Ike's PM QD instead of Shield Breaker but still with the extra shield damage. Would that do it, or does he need to borrow someone's dthrow?

DB/usmash/counter change would be dope but yeah, I don't see Marth getting changed

 

[Ripple]

IS IT TRUE?!?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h5825Wu0WjA

 

[Player -0]

Lunchables nooooooooooooooooooooo

 

[Frost | Odds]

IMO Marth being the "third best character in Melee" is purely based on the fact that his MU vs. spacies is near even. Without spacies, marth would definitely fall a lot lower and sheik would be #1

Well, yeah -- obviously. At least in part.

Everyone in this thread is stupid, I forgot why I even read anything here

Don't be a prick.

 

[leekslap]

I think puff is very hard to buff without making her too similar to Kirby or broken because let's face it: Rest is broken. The only reason it doesn't seem broken is because its on a character with one other good move. It's overcentralizing her gameplay. Aside from trying to land a rest all she has is a neutral game. Condition the opponent to expect bairs and do something else like a fair or DACUS or nair or Pound or whatever average mixup she has.

 

[Mera Mera]

Sheek still needs needle hitboxes to precede their hurtboxes so they beat more stuff.

Sheik's needles don't have a hurtbox in PM. They had a hurtbox in Melee which is why the beat all projectiles in Melee (including Samus' fully charged shot). Basically if something has a hurtbox, then when most projectiles it hit, they will disappear (the only exception that I can think of being Ivy's side B and Ness' pikafire sort of since it will activate).

Also Sheik doesn't need anything. Neither does Marth (not @ you, moreso at the thread). It's true that the gods in PM are way better, but it's also true that those characters need to be nerfed.

If Marth was a PM character there would be no DI to escape fthrow tipper fsmash.

This. This so much. The throw game is dumb as hell in this game. It might be fine if some characters have guaranteed follow ups from throws, but at least make it so there's more than one throw to consider using, and have a percent range for when said follow ups change or stop existing.

I think DDD is a good example of a character who has really good throws, but his throw game actually has depth. He can set up for a juggle with u-throw or he has a d-throw / f-throw mix up by the ledge where bad DI for f-throw is the DI to avoid drop zone fair after d-throw. It's clearly a good grab game but it has much more to think about than the all to common d-throw -> whatever the **** I want in this game.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Can't Marth land an advancing pivot fsmash off of fthrow on most floaties?
Sometimes I get the feeling Melee top tiers aren't being played nearly as close to optimally in PM as everyone assumes.

 

[Deleted member]

god i love you lunchables

 

[shairn]

Can't Marth land an advancing pivot fsmash off of fthrow on most floaties?
Sometimes I get the feeling Melee top tiers aren't being played nearly as close to optimally in PM as everyone assumes.

Floaties can just DI in/up and DJ away. There's a tight percentage where tippers are much more common, but it's pretty easily escapable. A lot of floaties try to DI down+away like any other character though which is horrible DI and lands you right on the tip.

Playing Marth in PM is like playing Marth in 2004: No one DI's your ****.

 

[trash?]

hahaha okay but really

stop

I'll fight all of you

I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN WHY DID I SAY WHAT I SAID

I just have opinions on general non-balance design of characters pls go away

 

[shairn]

hahaha okay but really

stop

I'll fight all of you

I KNEW THIS WOULD HAPPEN WHY DID I SAY WHAT I SAID

I just have opinions on general non-balance design of characters pls go away

Every post aside from yours in the last two pages has been pretty constructive and well-mannered.
At least we're speculating about tier list placings and character design instead of taking poorly concealed jabs at melee and acting smug about it.

 

[trash?]

????

is it melee smugness to point out design flaws in a game where everyone else is often changed for their design flaws?

like I do that with kirby. in fact people got really angry for doing that with kirby. do I hate kirby now

 

[victinivcreate1]

This balance talk is funny. I was dying at the "Marth having guaranteed follow ups if he was a PM character".