Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

well, if you changed marth at all then everyone would go ape**** (But yes, I do agree marth is fine)

I don't really agree with a few of ikes things, side b is questionable to me. The actual attack you can do out of side b is REALLY safe, it has little cool down and combos into a lot. Maybe I just don't know ike at all? But his side b is a bit... awkward.

That's one of Ike's only fast options. It's punishable on block and it combos into a lot of things mostly because of Ike's coverage. Even then his ability to convert hits into death is somewhat limited by his power; QD is as much combo glue as it is neutral tool and without that filler Ike's options and ability to chain hits together are surprisingly limited. Basically for every quick tech and ounce of power he has large coverage and lots of start-up, long distance recovery without the ability to mix it up too much or recover from angles slightly below horizontally away from the stage [without walls, anyway] and cracks under pressure due to having nothing quick out of shield. He's very kill or be killed, with a defined downside and drawback for every advantage almost to a 1-1 ratio of pros and cons.

So without meaning offense I'd say if you're complaining about QD attack you probably don't know Ike too well.

 

[Deleted member]

words words words

So without meaning offense I'd say if you're complaining about QD attack you probably don't know Ike too well.

Yeah like I said I pretty much don't know anything about ike, just throwing in something I noticed from playing vs ike players lol

btw on an unrelated note, hey guys you should all talk about how toonlinks recovery is bad! Oh and make sure to link that video of aero walljumping and b reversing on the FOD side over and over

 

[Blank Mauser]

Charizard IMO is easy to deal with when you get to know him. The tech chase should be reverted to the op one because all his other comboes (in general) are reliant on the opponent's DI. That said, he still wins against characters, like Ivysaur.

Ivysaur is probably considered by most Zards one of his worst matchups honestly.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Toon Link's recovery is reasonable, I think. The short distance and lack of hangtime at the Apex of Up-B is well-balanced when you take into account his ability to AGT and bomb jump. Is his tether shorter than Link's?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

 

[leekslap]

Isn't Ivy's or M2's gimping game better?

I mean, they're kinda hard to beat.

Edit - What is this post above me.

Meta Knights is definetly not better. Nair SDs happen sometimes if you go too deep. YEAH THAT'S RIGHT GOING TOO DEEP IS A THING WITH META KNIGHT YOU HATERS HE DOESN'T HAVE THE BEST RECOVERY! Also bair is a little hard to pull off since it's relatively slow. D3 doesn't even care about limits. Down throw chaingrab to fair to fair= D E A D spells dead. His bair can challenge up bs and stuff since it lingers and forward tilt and down tilt are good for on ledge edgeguarding sometimes. Also, nobody does it but I'm pretty sure you can Inhale suicide. Dededecide lol.

 

[jtm94]

Ike's SideB has a ton of options out of it. Most movement/attack option combos are slowly being toned down. Like how Wario's crouching to end his SideB was taken out because it was well... too good in a movement option that did a lot. It was also safe on shield. Ike's QD may not be safe on shield, buy you can cancel into grab if you see they shield, just jump in general, or actually attack out of it with QD or otherwise. It also makes his recovery that much better.

Toon Link's recovery sucks buns. His UpB is smaller than Link's and goes significantly less distance. His tether feels smaller, and I don't know if he gets as much height from AGT as Link does. All in all it's a very fair recovery as most should be. It has some mixup potential, doesn't go incredibly far without actual tech skill or just holding Up and B.

Meta Knight also has overrated recovery. It's pretty easy to go too deep with nair and suicide. You can only nair or fair safely immediately after a jump or you end up super low. Tornado gets some distance, but you can't sweetspot with it and it's pretty meh for recovery. His glide can't be cancelled into anything like Pit/Zard. MK's bair is pretty fast, his other aerials are just TOO FAST.

 

[Paradoxium]

I dunno man, being able to throw bombs at your opponent while recovering from far away seems pretty good to me, also the risk involved with edge guarding toonlinks up b... his recovery really doesn't seem all that bad. I'd say his recovery is like mid tier, maybe higher. Some characters can actually gimp him pretty well.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Ike's SideB has a ton of options out of it. Most movement/attack option combos are slowly being toned down. Like how Wario's crouching to end his SideB was taken out because it was well... too good in a movement option that did a lot. It was also safe on shield. Ike's QD may not be safe on shield, buy you can cancel into grab if you see they shield, just jump in general, or actually attack out of it with QD or otherwise. It also makes his recovery that much better.

Toon Link's recovery sucks buns. His UpB is smaller than Link's and goes significantly less distance. His tether feels smaller, and I don't know if he gets as much height from AGT as Link does. All in all it's a very fair recovery as most should be. It has some mixup potential, doesn't go incredibly far without actual tech skill or just holding Up and B.

Meta Knight also has overrated recovery. It's pretty easy to go too deep with nair and suicide. You can only nair or fair safely immediately after a jump or you end up super low. Tornado gets some distance, but you can't sweetspot with it and it's pretty meh for recovery. His glide can't be cancelled into anything like Pit/Zard. MK's bair is pretty fast, his other aerials are just TOO FAST.

MK's recovery is definitely not overrated. Everything but Mach Tornado has a counter. Mach Tornado is pretty much a free recovery.
People are just too quick to use like one double jump and then do a special.

I literally just use all my four jumps to weave around my opponent's edgeguard attempts. I often never have to fear being edgeguarded.

I think a way to nerf MK's recovery would probably be nerf Tornado's distance. MK can recover high wayyyy too easily and the laggy isn't enough to punish it for slower characters. Everything else is beatable, even his multiple jumps. I think part of PM's problem is that we all have this mindset that the 6 gods+the four demi gods+MK are nigh on unbeatable, and we never challenge them offstage or onstage, so we get beat. While the 6 god characters are very hard to flat out challenge, the demi gods and MK are very possible to challenge. You just have to be smart. Sometimes I'll go Fox and literally dash, jump off stage, and then DJ shine. Most people don't expect that, so they get bopped. Then I just Up B back because Fire Fox is mad long.

Oh yeah Mk's bair is like frame 11. Not that fast. And his nair is the only real fast thing (lol 3). Fair is frame 7, uair is 6 (and has mad lag if you miss), dair is 10, and pretty unsafe to use in general.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Just give everyone Smash 4 recoveries. There. It's balanced.

Except Ganondorf, obviously.

 

[leekslap]

MK's recovery is definitely not overrated. Everything but Mach Tornado has a counter. Mach Tornado is pretty much a free recovery.
People are just too quick to use like one double jump and then do a special.

I literally just use all my four jumps to weave around my opponent's edgeguard attempts. I often never have to fear being edgeguarded.

I think a way to nerf MK's recovery would probably be nerf Tornado's distance. MK can recover high wayyyy too easily and the laggy isn't enough to punish it for slower characters. Everything else is beatable, even his multiple jumps. I think part of PM's problem is that we all have this mindset that the 6 gods+the four demi gods+MK are nigh on unbeatable, and we never challenge them offstage or onstage, so we get beat. While the 6 god characters are very hard to flat out challenge, the demi gods and MK are very possible to challenge. You just have to be smart. Sometimes I'll go Fox and literally dash, jump off stage, and then DJ shine. Most people don't expect that, so they get bopped. Then I just Up B back because Fire Fox is mad long.

Oh yeah Mk's bair is like frame 11. Not that fast. And his nair is the only real fast thing (lol 3). Fair is frame 7, uair is 6 (and has mad lag if you miss), dair is 10, and pretty unsafe to use in general.

Who are the demi gods lol? I use my jumps but maybe my opponents are so used to me they edgeguard me like a champ.

 

[leekslap]

Just give everyone Smash 4 recoveries. There. It's balanced.

Except Ganondorf, obviously.

Fun fact, in 64, Falcon used Falcon Punch to recover.

 

[JOE!]

Ivysaur is probably considered by most Zards one of his worst matchups honestly.

I keep telling you that it isn't really bad. You just have to space differently vs ivy and you body him as Zard. Also, Fire > Grass.

 

[MLGF]

Guess right on a QD mixup? You get punished like crazy. Honestly, poor QD's on offense is horrible and it's a joke to hear people complain about such an important tool for Ike.
Anyone who thinks Ike is OP or has poor design choices hasn't played enough Ike's. He's really well crafted.

 

[Erik Aldereguia]

marth's counter needs to be jump cancelleable. that was a joke by the way.
real talk tho, i agree ike is well crafted. i just wish he wasnt completely reliant on qd.

 

[Deleted member]

ATTENTION: HERE IS MY TIER LIST COMPOSED OF SOLELY UNINFORMED OPINIONS THAT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH

holy **** why do I put so much effort into this character for so little appreciable success tier:
the rat

.

That is SO accurate, seriously.

 

[GP&B]

marth's counter needs to be jump cancelleable. that was a joke by the way.
real talk tho, i agree ike is well crafted. i just wish he wasnt completely reliant on qd.

Good dash attack for Ike when, PMDT

 

[shairn]

Guess right on a QD mixup? You get punished like crazy. Honestly, poor QD's on offense is horrible and it's a joke to hear people complain about such an important tool for Ike.
Anyone who thinks Ike is OP or has poor design choices hasn't played enough Ike's. He's really well crafted.

The only Ike I've played is Ally
Pls nerf

 

[JesteRace]

I did forget Ike. He is also a close-to-perfect character. I didn't mention Marth and Captain Falcon because they were already well-crafted.

 

[yttik]

I suck at brawl I would always play CPU's in the past but I knew the advanced techniques like Side B and Down B Canceling with shield and a few months ago I got a Allisbrawl account and play Brawl Wifi and I kind of suck still which is why I quit Brawl 2 months ago

I don't blame you, PM is kinda better

 

[jtm94]

MK's tornado is pretty fast indeed.

Ike has a hard time with projectiles hitting him out of quickdraw. For some reason QD goes through Diddy's peanuts though.

Captain Falcon is terrible currently, idk what character you are playing. Mostly because every top character beats him handily like the rest of the cast.

 

[eideeiit]

Any opinions on GW balance- and desing-wise?

 

[TreK]

People mention Roy like 6 times in the "who doesn't need changes" list and leave out Ike and Marth.

Marth is so well designed that it's a sword character whose best move is his only swordless move.
He may be balanced, yeah, but well designed, eh.

But don't listen to me I'm salty :V

 

[Ace55]

Lol, Baxon is always salty about Marth as well. Must be a French Falco thing.

Ivysaur is probably considered by most Zards one of his worst matchups honestly.

I keep telling you that it isn't really bad. You just have to space differently vs ivy and you body him as Zard. Also, Fire > Grass.

I kinda agree with Joe, I don't feel it's that bad.

 

[Erik Aldereguia]

Any opinions on GW balance- and desing-wise?

i think the nature of g&w just makes him... awkward. decent recovery, good di mixups. i think hes balanced fine.

 

[MLGF]

Ike has a hard time with projectiles hitting him out of quickdraw. For some reason QD goes through Diddy's peanuts though.

*writes down*
That's veeeerrrrryyyyy interesting.
I'll keep that in mind.

 

[trash?]

any balancing issues brought up would result in me moaning about RNG and how judgement can do everything or nothing on factors you're barely in control of

no wait I just did that now. WELL IT SUCKS SO THERE

 

[DMG]

G^W is a butthole of a character.

 

[RelaxAlax]

Eh, come on guys. Having a luck mechanic in a competitive game makes it more exciting, more thrilling or adrenaline rushing.

That or you play Mewtwo that has an always available tail.

 

[Strong Badam]

G^W is a butthole of a character.

umad

 

[didds]

maybe the problem isn't the existence of RNG, but the shortage of it?

Let's make Yoshi's egg lay have a 5% chance of star KO.

And Kirby's swallow gives him a 15% chance of contracting an STD and it makes him move slower for 15 seconds.

And 10% of the time instead of pulling out shades, Squirtle will pull out a sword.

and for viability sake, 10% of the time you pick Jiggs, the game switches you to Fox on start.

 

[howbadisbad]

I would be nice if you could JC or otherwise reduce the lag on his bucket. He is the only character with such a slow and laggy absorb/reflect. Its really a problem against characters like ZSS and Wolf who can punish you very easily for trying to bucket.

 

[DMG]

umad

No, I sad!

Edit: if you successfully bucket absorb something, I'm pretty sure you can VERY quickly release the bucket (including partially filled buckets).

 

[GrosMinou]

And 10% of the time instead of pulling out shades, Squirtle will pull out a sword.

PMDT pls.

 

[Foo]

I would be nice if you could JC or otherwise reduce the lag on his bucket. He is the only character with such a slow and laggy absorb/reflect. Its really a problem against characters like ZSS and Wolf who can punish you very easily for trying to bucket.

If only there was some way you could release what you adsorbed on frame one for massive damage. (Because I KNOW you know that exists)

Anyway, on Gwuubs, I feel he is "balanced" but incredibly broken. I believe he is the most poorly designed character in the game except ice climbers. The reason being that all of his animations have very limited correlation with what he actually does. His downair his above him considerably, his nair hits a circle around his entire body, his forward tilt hits inside and behind him, his up-b is almost as big a hitbox as nair, his throws look exactly alike, his dtilt is one circular hitbox and when the hitboxes disappears, the animation is still going and etc. (There are FAR more examples)

The problem this creates is that you literally have to study frame data in order to play against game and watch properly. I think that all of his hitboxes should be more or less reduced to the animation and most of his moves should be given a "cooldown" frame of animation if possible. For instance, when downtilt stops hitting the manhole could stop moving, his dash attack could tilt him up slightly when it stops hitting, etc.

Every single character in this game should be visibly intuitive so that you can tell what they are hitting and for how long. I understand that all of this would be a nerf to Gwuubs and he isn't OP, so we'd have to give him buffs to compensate. If he wasn't so slow, easy to kill, low on strong kill moves, and had a slightly better combo game, he'd be as ridiculous as sonic.

(Also, his up-b should have a short startup)

 

[PillsBuryDopeBoy]

ATTENTION: HERE IS MY TIER LIST COMPOSED OF SOLELY UNINFORMED OPINIONS THAT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH

I play this game for money tier:
Pit
Diddy
M2
Mario (pronounced merrio)
Fux

PM is the only smash game I play tier:
Roy
Ivy
Zelder
Yawshi
boozer

Why does everyone else hate my main? tier:
Poocas
Sanic
m2k
Stink

That fun secondary that you play more than your main tier:
this is that char from killer instict, right?
Zard
he got a big booty so I call him big booty

Manly Hemingway tier doomed to top 8 but not top 4 placings:
Dooooooorf
Dunkey
Ike
Ivan Ooze
HYESSS

When's maylay tier?
Peesh
Joe Flacco is an elite qb
icks
Sheik prefers male gender pronouns
Hbox
Marf

Hipster main tier that will defend their character to the death
coneyzzz
Toon Lunchables
Lucaryu
JDCwombat
Lamar
I'm gonna constantly post gifs of nintendude vs cyrain to show how great gdubs is
chudat tho

Spam moar tier:
spamus
PKFire

holy **** why do I put so much effort into this character for so little appreciable success tier:
the rat
fanservice
Metal JCaesar no spaces

Actual secret boss god-tier potential I'm not even joking this is the one serious point in this post tier:
Weegee

Never has a tier list been so accurate. 10/10 it's ok.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Suddenly realized a good way to tweak Mewtwo and his ridonkadonk tail without an outright range nerf. Give him the 2.1 Ike treatment, i.e. sweetspots and sourspots so that he needs to actually space instead of throwing moves out like LALALALALALA SWISH SWISH BOOTYBANGING IN DA CLUB. Giving his sourspots wonky KB that make follow-ups harder is a good way to make the character require more thought.

Well that and the aforementioned changes to his absurd movement options, making TP burn his DJ/Hover, reducing his weight back to Melee since we see his survivability is just fine, maybe increasing some lag on TP to make it more combo glue/punish rather than an approach, should capture the essence of the character's style without totally butchering it or keeping it completely ridic. And maybe some end-lag on uncharged Shadow Ball? The forever woop already got hit with the new ledgestall mechanics so that's not an issue anymore. Extend the hurtbox on his tail a bit so he has less disjoint? Stuff like that.

 

[Player -0]

Meta Knights is definetly not better. Nair SDs happen sometimes if you go too deep. YEAH THAT'S RIGHT GOING TOO DEEP IS A THING WITH META KNIGHT YOU HATERS HE DOESN'T HAVE THE BEST RECOVERY! Also bair is a little hard to pull off since it's relatively slow. D3 doesn't even care about limits. Down throw chaingrab to fair to fair= D E A D spells dead. His bair can challenge up bs and stuff since it lingers and forward tilt and down tilt are good for on ledge edgeguarding sometimes. Also, nobody does it but I'm pretty sure you can Inhale suicide. Dededecide lol.

I never mentioned MK?

 

[Soft Serve]

No, I sad!

Edit: if you successfully bucket absorb something, I'm pretty sure you can VERY quickly release the bucket (including partially filled buckets).

Yeah its really fast, you just press down b again. Makes neutral against falco/lucas slightly more manageable.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Suddenly realized a good way to tweak Mewtwo and his ridonkadonk tail without an outright range nerf. Give him the 2.1 Ike treatment, i.e. sweetspots and sourspots so that he needs to actually space instead of throwing moves out like LALALALALALA SWISH SWISH BOOTYBANGING IN DA CLUB. Giving his sourspots wonky KB that make follow-ups harder is a good way to make the character require more thought.

Well that and the aforementioned changes to his absurd movement options, making TP burn his DJ/Hover, reducing his weight back to Melee since we see his survivability is just fine, maybe increasing some lag on TP to make it more combo glue/punish rather than an approach, should capture the essence of the character's style without totally butchering it or keeping it completely ridic. And maybe some end-lag on uncharged Shadow Ball? The forever woop already got hit with the new ledgestall mechanics so that's not an issue anymore. Extend the hurtbox on his tail a bit so he has less disjoint? Stuff like that.

more moves in general need more extreme sweet/sour spots, it'll make combos harder but also more variable and creative

 

[jtm94]

GnW is meh. Boy do you feel his bad MUs. I'm just a bad, what do I know, but I can perform twice as well with most other characters I don't play over my GnW I've been working on since I started playing a year ago. If you have reads on your opponent boy do you have combos, but if you don't have anything figured out it becomes a pain. The best things he has combo wise is uair that's IASA lets you use another uair and it also hits on frame 3 with another hitbox when you land. You can DI out of the UpB shenanigans at any %, guaranteed aerials on faster fallers out of throws that aren't dthrow. If the opponent techs you can DACUS to hit them, but some characters roll farther or shorter distances and the DACUS doesn't line up even if you have the read, the DACUS also misses if they don't tech and roll so it isn't even like a mixup, they have a lot of options away from stuff unless you have god tier reaction.

His recovery is kinda dumb, but at least he gets edgeguarded and dies at obscene percents like 40% on Warioware. He gets crushed by Marth and Roy for free, and loses to anyone with moderately faster aerials(the rest of the cast). Dair has really decent hitboxes(the meteor and landing hitbox) which combo into other stuff, but good luck placing that above someone and not getting hit. Judgment is dumb because you either get a free KO or get KOd for free for using it, but it shouldn't be good everyone has weird moves that are situational at best. His shield still sucks, his roll sucks, his projectiles are fair. His redeeming quality is how swag of a character he is and the things he can do with bad DI on his moves. He has the gattling combo out of dash attack, can safely dash run at shields because of boost grab, can punish from far with DACUS, bair goes into anything on bad DI, dash attack goes into anything on bad DI, dtilt at low percents goes into almost any aerial. Just don't miss an aerial or you're dead because landing lag is very real.