Tier List Speculation

[DrinkingFood]

Suddenly realized a good way to tweak Mewtwo and his ridonkadonk tail without an outright range nerf. Give him the 2.1 Ike treatment, i.e. sweetspots and sourspots so that he needs to actually space instead of throwing moves out like LALALALALALA SWISH SWISH BOOTYBANGING IN DA CLUB. Giving his sourspots wonky KB that make follow-ups harder is a good way to make the character require more thought.

Well that and the aforementioned changes to his absurd movement options, making TP burn his DJ/Hover, reducing his weight back to Melee since we see his survivability is just fine, maybe increasing some lag on TP to make it more combo glue/punish rather than an approach, should capture the essence of the character's style without totally butchering it or keeping it completely ridic. And maybe some end-lag on uncharged Shadow Ball? The forever woop already got hit with the new ledgestall mechanics so that's not an issue anymore. Extend the hurtbox on his tail a bit so he has less disjoint? Stuff like that.

He already has sourspots and sweetspots. The tip is usually the sourspot, and the sweetspot is either the middle hitbox or the inside hitbox. It's really inconsistent how it works tho.

 

[Deleted member]

can someone explain to me why ivysaur players chronically underrate their character and say she's bad when the people that play the other 40/41 characters know that's total bull****?

 

[MLGF]

Maybe they think they say it loud enough, it'll stop nerfs.

 

[shairn]

can someone explain to me why ivysaur players chronically underrate their character and say she's bad when the people that play the other 40/41 characters know that's total bull****?

I think the majority of people underrate their characters. You don't really see how bad others have it until you're at the receiving end of your own bull****.

 

[Player -0]

Probably has to do with the psychological pressure of playing vs. Ivy. A character doesn't have to be super good, they can just be super annoying to play against.

 

[Soft Serve]

Last night medz used the arm hitbox of links boomerang to clank with my blaster, then the boomerang hit me with the strong hitbox and he zero>deathed me. Wolf is terribad, pls buff and nerf everyone else

I actually think link is fine, zair and boomerang are too good but he needs something to keep people out, he just nets so much off landing the good hitbox of either if he catches you approaching with them.
All wolf players know he is bull****, we just all suck

 

[Player -0]

I still can't believe Link has an arm hitbox, it's just so lolzy. I'll combo with it one day.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He already has sourspots and sweetspots. The tip is usually the sourspot, and the sweetspot is either the middle hitbox or the inside hitbox. It's really inconsistent how it works tho.

Ah. Should prolly differentiate/define them more, then. Uair and Utilt shouldn't chain into themselves forever, too.

 

[Strong Badam]

I still can't believe Link has an arm hitbox, it's just so lolzy. I'll combo with it one day.

Most sword characters have hitboxes on their arm. Would be kind of frustrating to hit someone SO DEEP that it doesn't hit.

 

[MLGF]

...That does sound frustrating.
That would make for an interesting dynamic though, like a really extreme Marth.

 

[shairn]

Look at Marth hitting you with his chest
Much man

 

[victinivcreate1]

Suddenly realized a good way to tweak Mewtwo and his ridonkadonk tail without an outright range nerf. Give him the 2.1 Ike treatment, i.e. sweetspots and sourspots so that he needs to actually space instead of throwing moves out like LALALALALALA SWISH SWISH BOOTYBANGING IN DA CLUB. Giving his sourspots wonky KB that make follow-ups harder is a good way to make the character require more thought.

Well that and the aforementioned changes to his absurd movement options, making TP burn his DJ/Hover, reducing his weight back to Melee since we see his survivability is just fine, maybe increasing some lag on TP to make it more combo glue/punish rather than an approach, should capture the essence of the character's style without totally butchering it or keeping it completely ridic. And maybe some end-lag on uncharged Shadow Ball? The forever woop already got hit with the new ledgestall mechanics so that's not an issue anymore. Extend the hurtbox on his tail a bit so he has less disjoint? Stuff like that.

Or we can

Shorten tail
Make tail moves laggier
Uh nerf DJ height (and subsequently Hover)
Remove the invincible ledgestall (fixed)
No more Hover/DJ out of TP.

TP doesn't need a nerf. TP Aerial is not safe on shield. TP Shadow Ball is slow and its laggy. Only safe if the ball is noticeably charged.

Five things will make Mewtwo wayyy more manageable.

 

[MLGF]

Well that'll hurt him a lot.
I still want him to be good, just not absurd to fight.

 

[Player -0]

Most sword characters have hitboxes on their arm. Would be kind of frustrating to hit someone SO DEEP that it doesn't hit.

I feel that way for Roy sometimes. Sword trails why you decieve me.

 

[InfinityCollision]

People mention Roy like 6 times in the "who doesn't need changes" list and leave out Ike and Marth.

Marth needs his Brawl DB (except with Melee air recovery) and SSB4 usmash.

Most sword characters have hitboxes on their arm. Would be kind of frustrating to hit someone SO DEEP that it doesn't hit.

Welcome to SSB4 style hitboxes

 

[TreK]

can someone explain to me why ivysaur players chronically underrate their character and say she's bad when the people that play the other 40/41 characters know that's total bull****?

Ivysaur does destroy the majority of the cast, but she happens to lose to the most frequent picks at top level play (see Smashboards ranking in which only top 8 results counts), so she's more likely to run into her counters when it matters. Don't think that Ivysaur players are asking for buffs though. I actually do not think that Ivysaur is capable of taking a national is this version, but the reasons why I believe so are probably going to get nerfed in the next version. I expect nerfs coming her wayas well, else she'd be a monster without counters to hold her back.

It's a little bit more complicated than that actually. Ivysaur has an extremely low amount of even matchups, basically. Her tools are not feared equally across the board, and her weaknesses cannot be abused by everyone. In example, uthrow totally destroys fatties, but it's just a decent move against the rest of the cast. So it's probably not going to be just a nerf, but a rebalance of sorts. Or yet another design reboot.

 

[Deleted member]

There are certain characters that people are going to ***** about no matter what is done to them because they're "annoying." Ivysaur is one of them. She has long range and multiple projectiles. That's who the character is and that should never change.

The only thing I'd like to be done to her is weaken her Up B sweetspot and reduce the hitbox size because that move is a bit ridiculous, and I would also like to see a more noticeable difference between her tilt and smash Razor Leafs. Maaaybe make her Bair slightly slower. That's all she needs imo. She doesn't need a redesign, and she certainly doesn't need to be nerfed to hell and back.

 

[GP&B]

Up B and Bair are easily the source of her most polarizing traits, I don't think that can be denied. Annoying characters will be annoying, but the important thing here is not having bad design choices in general.

 

[leekslap]

Eh, come on guys. Having a luck mechanic in a competitive game makes it more exciting, more thrilling or adrenaline rushing.

That or you play Mewtwo that has an always available tail.

I think RNGs would work if the chance of getting something bad was very little or situational on whether it's bad or good. I'm pretty sure Game and Watch's only bad Judge is 1 and it is exciting to hope for a 9. Dedede's side b is an excellent example of the latter. For example, let's say you have only one jump left but are in the perfect position to Waddle Dash. You throw it, and it's a Gordo and die because you accidently airdodged into it( since you can only do it with dees and doos ). In another situation, a Gordo could be excellent because its knockback is godlike and a well thrown Gordo could be killer for edgeguarding. But the main thing is, Dedede doesn't depend his life on his side b as you can usually recover without waddle dashing in the first place and you just have to be smart with your recovery. With a character like Olimar on the other hand... Well lets just say the current version of Olimar would be the last character M2K would ever play. No rngs, fixed recovery, and balanced out pikmin plz Also buff Ganon he sucks

 

[steelguttey]

actually m2k thinks olimar is mid tier last time i checked

why is m2k the definitive standard for the best player

 

[Player -0]

The thing is, if DDD usually has an option and they need to use it to set up a mix up or make their situation better then they'll attempt to use it. Like Snake if he decides to C4 instead of grabbed onto the stage barely. If this option isn't reliable then it doesn't become an option at all and destroys the point of having it. If Snake dropped a rainbow 1/4 times then C4 jumping or whatever would become really dumb. Maybe a better example would be sometimes Jiggz would a jump every time it used a DJ.

Edit -

actually m2k thinks olimar is mid tier last time i checked

why is m2k the definitive standard for the best player

He plays every game is at least decent so it's easiest to insert him into it instead of someone like Mango.

 

[leekslap]

actually m2k thinks olimar is mid tier last time i checked

why is m2k the definitive standard for the best player

I wasn't saying Olimar is bad, I was saying he was too luck based for someone like M2K who knows everything he should do in any situations and all the combos. I wish my Sheik was like his, I can barely wavedash back to space an f tilt lol. Also when did he say that? Last I checked he said Pit, Mewtwo, Sonic, Lucas, Diddy Kong, and Link ( SEE I WAS RIGHT LINK KS BETTER THAN MARIO ) are the most broken characters.

You should watch the documentary. The Smash Brothers is what its called. It'll explain why they call him "The Robot".
EDIT: @ Player -0 It's not a mixup. You see a D3 in the top corner of the stage, expect that penguin to come flying at you at invisble speeds! Also, I was only saying that being unable to waddle dash doesn't mean it's impossible to return to the stage unlike Olimar who can't recover after losing a pikmin.

 

[Player -0]

You can't wavedash back to space an F-Tilt but you think you're one of the best Falcos?


Also M2K is infamous for having differing opinions based on his current knowledge at the time.

Edit - Basically M2K's word isn't law. He's said himself that he gives out his impressions and then goes back later (once playing people/lab) to reconfirm or understand them more.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

( SEE I WAS RIGHT LINK KS BETTER THAN MARIO ).

First rule of discourse, if you want to be taken seriously: Stop sticking in sentences like that. Neither the caps nor the 'neener neener' tone affirm any point you are trying to make. Stop doing that and automatically you sound less twelve.

 

[leekslap]

You can't wavedash back to space an F-Tilt but you think you're one of the best Falcos?


Also M2K is infamous for having differing opinions based on his current knowledge at the time.

Edit - Basically M2K's word isn't law. He's said himself that he gives out his impressions and then goes back later (once playing people/lab) to reconfirm or understand them more.

WITH SHEIK. Falcos wavedash time is second nature to me. And I was actually only kidding. I mean come on, I literally only use her for one character and I picked her up like a week ago. But his opinion has a lot of weight. I mean what we call fact to him is just a super vague impression to him he checks frames and stuff.

First rule of discourse, if you want to be taken seriously: Stop sticking in sentences like that. Neither the caps nor the 'neener neener' tone affirm any point you are trying to make. Stop doing that and automatically you sound less twelve.

lol

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

WITH SHEIK. Falcos wavedash time is second nature to me. And I was actually only kidding. I mean come on, I literally only use her for one character and I picked her up like a week ago. But his opinion has a lot of weight. I mean what we call fact to him is just a super vague impression to him he checks frames and stuff.

lol

No worries, that's what ignore buttons are for.

 

[steelguttey]

I wasn't saying Olimar is bad, I was saying he was too luck based for someone like M2K who knows everything he should do in any situations and all the combos. I wish my Sheik was like his, I can barely wavedash back to space an f tilt lol. Also when did he say that? Last I checked he said Pit, Mewtwo, Sonic, Lucas, Diddy Kong, and Link ( SEE I WAS RIGHT LINK KS BETTER THAN MARIO ) are the most broken characters.

You should watch the documentary. The Smash Brothers is what its called. It'll explain why they call him "The Robot".
EDIT: @ Player -0 It's not a mixup. You see a D3 in the top corner of the stage, expect that penguin to come flying at you at invisble speeds! Also, I was only saying that being unable to waddle dash doesn't mean it's impossible to return to the stage unlike Olimar who can't recover after losing a pikmin.

in a convo with him on facebook and on stream once or twice iirc. never said he thinks hes broken.

i have seen the documentary. i know what it is. dont assume things

olimar combos are the same its just that the finisher is always a purple

olimar can recover after losing a pikmin its just harder

 

[Comprehend13]

things

I swear that you and 1FD have made some sort of covenant to render this thread unreadable.

 

[Soft Serve]

I swear that you and 1FD have made some sort of covenant to render this thread unreadable.

Hey, 1FD's post are the closest things we will get to Nasicca/Bamsey posts until Bamsey comes back from his decade long sage-trip into the Himalayas with Isai. 1FD's post have a ton of good content imo, and while its not organized it always contributes something meaningful, unlike most of the last 200 pages or so

 

[Blank Mauser]

I kinda agree with Joe, I don't feel it's that bad.

D-tilt and Up-B are both pretty difficult for Zard to deal with alone I think. Not even taking into account the fact that Ivy has amazing setups on fatties.

The match-up isn't that bad but its not one I like to play. Where as I can actually say I prefer Zard in a lot of other MUs.

 

[leekslap]

I swear that you and 1FD have made some sort of covenant to render this thread unreadable.

Hey, what's wrong with my posts?

 

[CORY]

your 12 year old shows through all of them.

 

[Shokio]

ATTENTION: HERE IS MY TIER LIST COMPOSED OF SOLELY UNINFORMED OPINIONS THAT I WILL DEFEND TO THE DEATH

I play this game for money tier:
Pit
Diddy
M2
Mario (pronounced merrio)
Fux

PM is the only smash game I play tier:
Roy
Ivy
Zelder
Yawshi
boozer

Why does everyone else hate my main? tier:
Poocas
Sanic
m2k
Stink

That fun secondary that you play more than your main tier:
this is that char from killer instict, right?
Zard
he got a big booty so I call him big booty

Manly Hemingway tier doomed to top 8 but not top 4 placings:
Dooooooorf
Dunkey
Ike
Ivan Ooze
HYESSS

When's maylay tier?
Peesh
Joe Flacco is an elite qb
icks
Sheik prefers male gender pronouns
Hbox
Marf

Hipster main tier that will defend their character to the death
coneyzzz
Toon Lunchables
Lucaryu
JDCwombat
Lamar
I'm gonna constantly post gifs of nintendude vs cyrain to show how great gdubs is
chudat tho

Spam moar tier:
spamus
PKFire

holy **** why do I put so much effort into this character for so little appreciable success tier:
the rat
fanservice
Metal JCaesar no spaces

Actual secret boss god-tier potential I'm not even joking this is the one serious point in this post tier:
Weegee

All of that is way too accurate. You can't be human. You are above us.

I'd actually put Yoshi at that last tier though (the one with Weegee)

 

[PMS | LEVEL 100 MAGIKARP]

Hey, 1FD's post are the closest things we will get to Nasicca/Bamsey posts until Bamsey comes back from his decade long sage-trip into the Himalayas with Isai. 1FD's post have a ton of good content imo, and while its not organized it always contributes something meaningful, unlike most of the last 200 pages or so

legit what happened to nausicca

also ^ <3
if yoshi was given a tether then yeah (PMBR pls)

 

[Soft Serve]

legit what happened to nausicca

also ^ <3
if yoshi was given a tether then yeah (PMBR pls)

I was only half joking, he's on some quasi-spritual journey/retreat in the mountains in Western Canada.

Yoshi with tether would be so broke

 

[Bleck]

Most sword characters have hitboxes on their arm. Would be kind of frustrating to hit someone SO DEEP that it doesn't hit.

it's much less frustrating to take damage from marth's pecs when he swings his sword, yes

 

[trash?]

wouldn't it make sense for a character based around spacing with the tip of his sword to not have a hitbox from coming too close, anyways

oh no I'm questioning a melee top tier's design again god help this thread

 

[Bleck]

wouldn't it make sense for a character based around spacing with the tip of his sword to not have a hitbox from coming too close, anyways

pretty sure I've been saying this for years at this point and people keep putting me down for it

same thing with his grab, really - why does the character who supposedly requires delicate spacing have literally the most forgiving grab range in the game

 

[Foo]

wouldn't it make sense for a character based around spacing with the tip of his sword to not have a hitbox from coming too close, anyways

oh no I'm questioning a melee top tier's design again god help this thread

They are sour spots, though. Also, designed to make the game "feel" better. There is pretty much no such thing as a move that misses when you are "too close." While it makes sense for a sword character to not hit when they are close, it would be super frustrating and annoying when it happened.

 

[Bleck]

again, getting frustrated because one actually has to try to hit with a specific hitbox is way less valid than being frustrated at marth's hitboxes extending to a huge chunk of his body

if you get annoyed because marth is using a forward smash and it's hitting you when you're above and behind him, that's reasonable

if you get annoyed because you used marth's forward smash and it only hit where he swung his sword, who cares