Tier List Speculation

[Frost | Odds]

ironically sethlon was much closer at getting everyone to BURN! with 2.5 sonic than he ever was at roy

Agree. I'm still of the opinion that Sethlon is easily the best PM player. Roy just sucks.

 

[DMG]

Depends on how you want to define that. I love Sethlon, and he's mah boi, but it's pretty hard to argue against how well Zero has done. He is clearly the premier #1 PM player right now, on basically every metric besides like 1 (M2K may have been traveling or competing more often, and winning smaller/regionals more)

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

It's really really hard to look at Zero's results in a favorable light given how busted Pit is though.

Pro and Sethlon honestly seem to me like contenders for that top spot because they do as well as they do with characters that have actual limitations.

 

[DMG]

Again, it depends on how you want to look at it. If you really want to tackle top player results with "their char is busted, so the wins don't mean as much", then you're kind of taking a dump on most results and players. I have a little more respect and faith in top players to not assume something like that. Maybe Diddy Kong players, maybe. I'll give you 1200 tentative points if that's your argument

 

[Foo]

*cough*Dedede*cough*

Hrm, not sure. I know I've knocked a d3 to the corner and he didn't recover, but he probably could have recovered with waddledashing. I haven't played enough against D3 to really see if his recovery is too good or not tbh.

yeah I don't think that's ever actually happened

It hasn't happened, but that seems to be your attitude. You are saying PK fire shouldn't be talked about for nerfs because it's not the BEST projectile and TL recovery isn't too good because it isn't the BEST recovery.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Well, duh.

Saddening thing: "PM is a mod with a focus on balance."

Result: "The top 10 characters have many more options than the rest of the cast and are in essence the only ones worth playing, like every other smash game."

Redeeming factor is that at least a large numbers of characters aren't helpess/do actually have a shot at cracking top 4 or even winning. It's like a sea of Falcons in an island of Foxes though, with some Yoshis and Ganondorfs thrown in.

 

[Bleck]

It hasn't happened, but that seems to be your attitude. You are saying PK fire shouldn't be talked about for nerfs because it's not the BEST projectile and TL recovery isn't too good because it isn't the BEST recovery.

no, see, I think that pk fire likely is a candidate for best projectile in the game

but I think ness is lacking in literally every other area

pm has a design focus on giving characters one broken thing in order to make up for their other more significant weaknesses, but then the top characters have those things and no significant weaknesses

why should we nerf pk fire, even if it's the best projectile, when it doesn't help ness to be the best character? why should anyone pay attention to people who complain about the small problems in a game where there are much larger, glaring problems to be dealt with?

 

[mimgrim]

I'l never agree with the mentality that a player using one of the best characters in the game and winning makes their win illegitimate. Like seriously. That just gives you a salty and whinny mentality to me and I take you less seriously.

If a character were that busted then I should be able to use them and beat players better then me, at least in theory. But I can't.

I just don't get how a player using a top character and winning makes a win any less legitimate.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Well, duh.

Saddening thing: "PM is a mod with a focus on balance."

Result: "The top 10 characters have many more options than the rest of the cast and are in essence the only ones worth playing, like every other smash game."

Redeeming factor is that at least a large numbers of characters aren't helpess/do actually have a shot at cracking top 4 or even winning. It's like a sea of Falcons in an island of Foxes though, with some Yoshis and Ganondorfs thrown in.

I have high hopes that it'll be a lot more reasonable within a patch or two, but this sums it up pretty well.

Depends on how you want to define that.

Quality/consistency of reads and play, full and intelligent use of character's moveset, near optimal punish game, and so forth.

I love Sethlon, and he's mah boi, but it's pretty hard to argue against how well Zero has done. He is clearly the premier #1 PM player right now, on basically every metric besides like 1 (M2K may have been traveling or competing more often, and winning smaller/regionals more)

Results are results, obviously. Sethlon hasn't been winning nationals, and Zero has. Zero's an amazing player, and certainly among the best; but I'm still of the opinion that if Roy's overall quality/potential as a character was even close to as good as Pit/Fox's, Sethlon would at least be giving Zero a run for his money.

That thought exercise is, of course, pointless, but we're in a goddamn speculation thread. Regardless, I get super annoyed when people attempt to justify statements like "Roy's pretty good!" with Sethlon's performance - as if he wasn't the only Roy with remotely decent results.

 

[Strong Badam]

Well, duh.

Saddening thing: "PM is a mod with a focus on balance."

Result: "The top 10 characters have many more options than the rest of the cast and are in essence the only ones worth playing, like every other smash game."

This isn't even remotely true. The top characters of any game, no matter how balanced, are going to have better results. The thing about balance is that the gap between the top characters and the bottom characters are smaller, and thats clearly true. We see mid tiers doing exceptionally well in tournament, and not just by outliers such as aMSa/Axe/Plup, but multiple players of those characters. Hell, the top 8 of TBH4 had 10 characters represented, while the top 32 of Melee had 11 characters represented. The game is quite obviously more balanced than any other Smash game and potentially any fighting game (I'm no expert on other Fighting Games, not enough to be the judge of that).

 

[Foo]

no, see, I think that pk fire likely is a candidate for best projectile in the game

but I think ness is lacking in literally every other area

pm has a design focus on giving characters one broken thing in order to make up for their other more significant weaknesses, but then the top characters have those things and no significant weaknesses

why should we nerf pk fire, even if it's the best projectile, when it doesn't help ness to be the best character? why should anyone pay attention to people who complain about the small problems in a game where there are much larger, glaring problems to be dealt with?

Because character balance isn't the sole focus, you also have to have healthy game mechanics. It doesn't matter how balanced a game is if it doesn't have depth and it isn't fun. Nerfing PK fire and buffing other aspects of Ness would give the character more depth, make him more fun to play, and his matchups more even across the board. It also should be a design philosophy that projectiles shouldn't be THAT good, the same way they have made it a design philosophy that recoveries shouldn't be THAT good. Is olimar or samus overpowered? Nope, but their recoveries are getting nerfed.

The much larger glaring problems are just that. Glaringly obvious. It looks like we are getting about one patch a year, so I think more can be done then just fixing obvious problems rather than letting the less obvious problems be the new obvious ones in the next patch.

 

[Professor Pro]

Agree. I'm still of the opinion that Sethlon is easily the best PM player. Roy just sucks.

I'm not of this opinion. I feel like everyone under plays how good Roy is as a character.
I personally could never see (and wouldn't allow *shots*) him being the best PM player.

Edit - Also I could say I would easily be the best if I picked up Lucas but since I haven't and I play Snake its irrelevant.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

This isn't even remotely true. The top characters of any game, no matter how balanced, are going to have better results. The thing about balance is that the gap between the top characters and the bottom characters are smaller, and thats clearly true. We see mid tiers doing exceptionally well in tournament, and not just by outliers such as aMSa/Axe/Plup, but multiple players of those characters. Hell, the top 8 of TBH4 had 10 characters represented, while the top 32 of Melee had 11 characters represented. The game is quite obviously more balanced than any other Smash game and potentially any fighting game (I'm no expert on other Fighting Games, not enough to be the judge of that).

That is entirely fair; I did say something similar in the post you quoted though not quite so emphatically. I suppose the question is then how "in line" the top characters can be brought in terms of being ahead of the rest before you can call it a day. I don't however feel it's impossible to have even more of an even playing field than there is now; ideally you'd want every character, even those in the top 10, to have more severe drawbacks and match-ups even they struggle in. Currently it really does feel like characters like Mewtwo and Pit lack that sort of red in their ledger. Pit is personally the one I find most egregious even though a lot of people may say Mewtwo; a wall of pain to carry to blastzones, various kill options both verticalyl and off the sides, good combo game on characters of all weights and fall speeds with a chain-grab on FFers, amazing recovery, great follow-ups off Dthrow and above average mobility with a good DD, wavedash, etc ... Seems like his design really missed out on that all-important "What can't he do well? Where does he fall short?"

Lucas' recovery nerf is a *really*,*really* good change that addresses that sort of issue.

Edit: As an amendment to my previous statement, Zero does deserve mad props for beating Professor Pro, favorable MU or not.

 

[Strong Badam]

@ Thane of Blue Flames Without going into specifics, I'll just say that we're clearly not done balancing this game despite how amazing it already is. Expect balance to improve in the next patch.

 

[Paradoxium]

Zero is godlike at brawl, smash 4, and melee. Saying he just gets carried by pit is ludicrous. The only other person to have that much success with Pit is Armada, and its not like he's one of the best Melee players of all time or anything.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Zero is godlike at brawl, smash 4, and melee. Saying he just gets carried by pit is ludicrous. The only other person to have that much success with Pit is Armada, and its not like he's one of the best Melee players of all time or anything.

Saying that would indeed be ridiculous.

I'm saying he gets carried by Pit AND Fox.

 

[OidBirdie]

Top players will use the best characters/strategies in any competitive activity because they want to be the best. If you believe that this somehow makes their achievements any less deserved, then you need to refine your competitive mindset. This game does have bs, but it is decently balanced. Next patch will be more balanced, but some characters will emerge stronger than others. The characters are so unique that balancing is a daunting task. At the end of the day, it is your own fault for not winning, even if it happens as soon as the css. Not sure who thought lucas' uthrow was a good idea though lol

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Top players will use the best characters/strategies in any competitive activity because they want to be the best. If you believe that this somehow makes their achievements any less deserved, then you need to refine your competitive mindset. This game does have bs, but it is decently balanced. Next patch will be more balanced, but some characters will emerge stronger than others. The characters are so unique that balancing is a daunting task. At the end of the day, it is your own fault for not winning, even if it happens as soon as the css. Not sure who thought lucas' uthrow was a good idea though lol

If you truly believe that, then what the hell are you even doing playing Project M? Because with this logic Melee, Brawl and 64 are all balanced enough for you.

I'm here because I really enjoy Smash as a hobby and I really care about balance. You can say "gitgud scrub" all you want, these criticisms are still important.

 

[OidBirdie]

Dude, the balance is BETTER and they are trying to balance the game. A player "getting carried" by the character isnt criticism, its an insult. Especially when ZeRo has SO much evidence that shows he's an amazing player.

 

[Strong Badam]

ZeRo will continue to pick whoever he thinks the best character is patch after patch and do well with that character. This is part of why he's a great player; character selection is a relevant skill in tournament. There may be some truth to what you say in that he's "carried" by Pit and Fox, but this isn't untrue for any top player in the game at the moment, nor will it be untrue with whatever character he picks in 3.5 should Pit/Fox and other characters change enough such that another character is the best. It's not really worth mentioning tbh.
The fact of the matter is that ZeRo's skill isn't strictly character-specific; he has shown prowess in multiple Smash games with multiple characters (his secondaries in PM are nothing to sneeze at either if you've ever met him in person and played him). Players like him and Mew2King are some of the best suited to succeed through multiple versions of the game because of this.

 

[OidBirdie]

ZeRo will continue to pick whoever he thinks is the best character is patch after patch and do well with that character. This is part of why he's a great player; character selection is a relevant skill in tournament. There may be some truth to what you say in that he's "carried" by Pit and Fox, but this isn't untrue for any top player in the game at the moment, nor will it be untrue with whatever character he picks in 3.5 should Pit/Fox and other characters change enough such that another character is the best. It's not really worth mentioning tbh.

That was what i was trying to say. I wasn't targeting you specifically, lordling. ZeRo was just a good example

 

[Frost | Odds]

I'm not of this opinion. I feel like everyone under plays how good Roy is as a character.

I can understand why you'd stay that, considering you play a character with no weaknesses (ie. doesn't suck - unlike Roy) who's only really overshadowed by the broken top tier atm.

I personally could never see (and wouldn't allow *shots*) him being the best PM player.

Heh.

Edit - Also I could say I would easily be the best if I picked up Lucas but since I haven't and I play Snake its irrelevant.

Hey, you may be right. I'd put you top 3 or 5 skillwise as well - as it's clear you actually spend time working with Snake specifically and finding/using all his tools as optimally as possible.

Ofc this is all still pointless, but so is life

@ Jolteon you're not allowed to like posts, y'damn sellout >=(

 

[Foo]

It's not really as binary as that. Zero isn't either a great player OR benefiting from an OP character. imo, it's both. He's a top tier player, there's no denying that, but I think it's possible someone like sethelon is more skilled, despite having worse results overall. In a patch where roy was top tier and pit was mid, I think sethelon would crush zero.

Skill makes the biggest difference, but where players are close to evenly skilled, the character balance can make the difference.

 

[DMG]

Snake has no weaknesses? You may want to refine that.

 

[Strong Badam]

I can understand why you'd stay that, considering you play a character with no weaknesses (ie. doesn't suck - unlike Roy) who's only really overshadowed by the broken top tier atm.

what am I reading

It's not really as binary as that. Zero isn't either a great player OR benefiting from an OP character. imo, it's both. He's a top tier player, there's no denying that, but I think it's possible someone like sethelon is more skilled, despite having worse results overall. In a patch where roy was top tier and pit was mid, I think sethelon would crush zero.

Skill makes the biggest difference, but where players are close to evenly skilled, the character balance can make the difference.

In a patch where Roy was Top Tier and Pit was mid, ZeRo would switch to Roy. Whether or not he would beat Sethlon is a good question, but he would do better than most.

 

[Jolteon]

I can understand why you'd stay that, considering you play a character with no weaknesses (ie. doesn't suck - unlike Roy) who's only really overshadowed by the broken top tier atm.

Heh.


Hey, you may be right. I'd put you top 3 skillwise as well - as it's clear you actually spend time working with Snake specifically and finding/using all his tools as optimally as possible.

Ofc this is all still pointless, but so is life

@ Jolteon you're not allowed to like posts, y'damn sellout >=(

I agree though. =[ I think Roy is good.

 

[MLGF]

No one at the top is "carried" by their character. Especially not Pro who uses a character where only he, and to a slightly lesser extent Rolex, make any good national results with. No one can complain that the top 8ish have similar characters when its usually the same top 8. I see plenty of variety at locals within state and that's important to remember, quit looking at the top players and look all round and you see plenty of results.

If Marth is still "mid" in PM, then so is Roy btw. He may have a slightly worse grab and spacing game along with a weak recovery, but if you think that Roy's strong combo game and kill power don't put him on a similar level as Marth, you're wrong.

 

[Foo]

In a patch where Roy was Top Tier and Pit was mid, ZeRo would switch to Roy. Whether or not he would beat Sethlon is a good question, but he would do better than most.

Alright, let me revise that statement slightly. If they both stuck to the same character in that patch, sethelon would win for sure. I really don't consider picking the OP characters as "skill." If your hypothetical were to happen, I really think sethelon would win, but zero would give him a run for his money for sure.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Snake has no weaknesses? You may want to refine that.

That's fair. I should have said that Snake's weaknesses are relatively difficult to exploit, and are overall vastly outweighed by his strengths. He doesn't really have any major problems with:

- Getting grabs (ie. Ganon, Samus)
- Capitalizing off grabs (ie. Jiggs in most MUs)
- Tech chasing (Zelda)
- Surviving big hits (ie. Kirby)
- Recovering (From goddamned anywhere)
- Lack of options OoS (ie. Ivysaur)
- Lack of neutral game options (like Bowser)
- etcetera.

Basically, he's got amazingly strong tools in pretty much any situation, and doesn't suffer for it in terms of gimpability/lack of recovery/lightness like other not-obviously-broken characters. I'm not arguing that he's OP, merely that there's a very obvious viability gap between Snake and someone like Roy, Peach, or Olimar.

That said, my God do I want to see some PM-only Peach and spacies players come along and wreck some faces with PM-specific tech.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Yeah, I agree with pretty much everything Strong Bad has said after I started posting here. Zero's versatility is definitely something that contributes to him being top of the food chain; I know I could never perform well with diverse characters like he does. (Hell, I can really only play Ike.)

Also Odds seriously LMFAO ROFLCOPTER LOLZORZ etc. @ Snake having no weaknesses. His upthrow is a little too good. That's it. Snake is a very balanced character with very severe drawbacks and Pro is a damn good player to work around those limitations.

Honestly I would throw money on Prof being the best PM player in the world. Now if only he would win more nationals to prove it

 

[Strong Badam]

Alright, let me revise that statement slightly. If they both stuck to the same character in that patch, sethelon would win for sure. I really don't consider picking the OP characters as "skill." If your hypothetical were to happen, I really think sethelon would win, but zero would give him a run for his money for sure.

Your definition of "skill" isn't what is tested in tournaments, and is therefore irrelevant to the discussion. Trying to subjectively determine who the best player is by imagining a game where all matchups are even is only marginally useful as a thought exercise and nothing more; tournament results tell us who is the better player, character selection and all. Looking at player success over multiple patches gives you a better view of whether or not a player is able to adapt to changes (a relevant and heavily tested skill in Project M), but it won't magically account for picking a better or worse character as a handicap.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Alright, let me revise that statement slightly. If they both stuck to the same character in that patch, sethelon would win for sure. I really don't consider picking the OP characters as "skill." If your hypothetical were to happen, I really think sethelon would win, but zero would give him a run for his money for sure.

There is some skill involved in being able to pick up any character (that you think is OP) and playing it at its best.

 

[Frost | Odds]

Trying to subjectively determine who the best player is by imagining a game where all matchups are even is only marginally useful as a thought exercise and nothing more.

I don't think anyone has suggested otherwise!

I think it is relevant to the discussion, though - if players with (relatively) poor fundamentals, who lack the sorts of transferable skills for which you rightly laud M2K and Zero, are beating players who are observably much 'better' in that sense, we have an indicator of a possible balance issue.

It seems to get really touchy as soon as names are mentioned in that regard, though.

Also Odds seriously LMFAO ROFLCOPTER LOLZORZ etc. @ Snake having no weaknesses. His upthrow is a little too good. That's it. Snake is a very balanced character with very severe drawbacks and Pro is a damn good player to work around those limitations.

Please feel free to share. I'm always happy to change my opinion based on new evidence.

 

[DMG]

Again, the only players of strong characters whom I might question their fundamentals, would be (certain) Diddy players.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

Snake doesn't actually have a great neutral game. Or a good approach. He depends on good reads, traps, choking out options and then capitalizing when he *finally* gets an in. His mobility in the air and ground are both sub-par, he's only slightly harder to combo than Bowser and Ganon and his recovery, while covering a large distance, is trash when he's close to the stage, because he's basically begging to be hit out of it. The distance thing isn't even that egregious - hit him far enough while not being above the stage and he can't C4 in time; and if he's at a high percent (which is easy to rack up v/s a recovering Snake) and knocked far the C4 will just kill him outright since he can't tech on stage. Pro makes good use of the life extension he gets when he blow himself up (I seem to remember at TBH4 he C4's himself *twice* as a mix-up and then was able to take a stock off M2K's Fox) but if you mind your space and don't succumb to Snake's rather potent web of trap and mind-games, you have him at your mercy.

Just see M2K's Marth v/s Prof and Rolex, it may not be a 75-25 "I win" matchup but it illustrates all of Snake's shortcomings very well. (And in my own opinion the only reason to not use Marth v/s Snake is stage picks.)

Edit: Oh yeah, Snake's combo game isn't that great, either. It's a lot of limiting options, reads, tech chasing and taking advantage of poor spacing with his Up-B/amazing grab game. Which is honestly why I do believe his Up-Throw shouldn't be nerfed.

 

[DMG]

I wish Marth Uthrow had a release point that low! That's the main culprit of his nonsense with that throw lol

 

[Frost | Odds]

Snake doesn't actually have a great neutral game. Or a good approach. He depends on good reads, traps, choking out options and then capitalizing when he *finally* gets an in. His mobility in the air and ground are both sub-par,

That's all fair enough (except for the laughable claim that a character with a boost grab, dacus, and dash attack as good as his has 'no good approach') but this makes me extremely skeptical:

he's only slightly harder to combo than Bowser and Ganon

.

I suddenly doubt that you've ever played against Bowser or Ganon.

and his recovery, while covering a large distance, is trash when he's close to the stage, because he's basically begging to be hit out of it.

Except that if he goes high (to my scrubby understanding), he can rain down hell and hurtboxes; and if he goes low, the cipher grants him near-invulnerability to a lot of characters' edgeguarding kits.

The distance thing isn't even that egregious - hit him far enough while not being above the stage and he can't C4 in time; and if he's at a high percent (which is easy to rack up v/s a recovering Snake) and knocked far the C4 will just kill him outright since he can't tech on stage. Pro makes good use of the life extension he gets when he blow himself up (I seem to remember at TBH4 he C4's himself *twice* as a mix-up and then was able to take a stock off M2K's Fox) but if you mind your space and don't succumb to Snake's rather potent web of trap and mind-games, you have him at your mercy.

Makes sense. Pro is, as previously established, pretty godly.

Just see M2K's Marth v/s Prof and Rolex, it may not be a 75-25 "I win" matchup but it illustrates all of Snake's shortcomings very well. (And in my own opinion the only reason to not use Marth v/s Snake is stage picks.)

Heh. With all the complaints about how bad Marth apparently is, I'd imagine that having him as your weakest non-mewtwo matchup would be desirable if anything. I'll watch, though.

Edit: Oh yeah, Snake's combo game isn't that great, either. It's a lot of limiting options, reads, tech chasing and taking advantage of poor spacing with his Up-B/amazing grab game. Which is honestly why I do believe his Up-Throw shouldn't be nerfed.

Also makes sense; though this isn't really making me want to drop everything and practice Snake stuff less.

Damnit.

Again, the only players of strong characters whom I might question their fundamentals, would be (certain) Diddy players.

I'd bring up a certain scientific pokemon, but, you know

 

[DMG]

I think some of the M2 players are underrated actually. *Woops away*

 

[didds]

Yoshi is the most brain dead character.
It's just easy ass DJC aerials all day long.

 

[Engage]

Yoshi is the most brain dead character.
It's just easy *** DJC aerials all day long.

Flutter jump shuffle (Down air for Yoshi) is pretty broken, even in Smash 4 if it manages to land, it's a free 32% into an up smash.