Tier List Speculation

[Chevy]

Does anyone else think footstooling just needs to be tweaked or just removed? It's an incredibly sloppily implemented mechanic right now and with the coming polish in 3.5 they really need to be looked at. At least in Brawl it was a clean bad mechanic, in PM it's a messy kinda alright mechanic.

I find it very off-putting that there is no fail window or whiff animation. Being able to just spam the taunt button and hope for the best is a little bit silly(obviously it's not quite that simple but you get the drift). That and the inconsistent behavior of the footstool victim. If they were doing absolutely anything then nothing happens to them and you just jump off, which is more inconsistent behavior that's just kind of gross. And the general inaccessibility of the taunt buttons promoting a control change just to optimally use them is a third nail in the coffin.

I don't know how you go about changing this. The easiest way is to just get rid of it, though it does add a somewhat interesting mechanic in and I'd rather it just be fixed. Making a fail animation that you can actually be punished for missing would be ideal(not sure if this can be implemented). And maybe this would be enough of an offset to let footstooling work properly when an opponent is acting, though I kind of doubt it.

Footstooling is a black mark on an otherwise mechanically sound game.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

I'm afraid of footstooling becoming prevalent and losing it's novelty.
The only thing is, and maybe I'm missing something, when someone says "Oh, man, instead of a DJ, I got this other vastly similar jump (without wasting my DJ), and wtf frame advantage? I didn't want that!" I'm a little skeptical.

At least being mapped to the same button tacked on some risk to footstools, because if you missed, then you're above your opponent with no jump. Mapped to taunt, you're free to spam a button without worry (if and only if you remap controls).

I agree that the current solution to footstools could be made a bit more elegant, at least. Maybe only activate footstools when the jump button is held for longer than x frames, and make the footstool range smaller?

 

[steelguttey]

how about footstooling becomes something that the enemy can break out of so if they press the taunt button at the same time they dontget footstooled but just pressing taunt in the air puts you in an animation thta you can get hit out of so edgugaurding becomes even more interesting

 

[skellitorman]

I think it should be removed. Not having a fail or whiff animation is not something that I agree with for a "grab" that always leads into combos with certain characters.

 

[Blank Mauser]

Its not like a grab at all. Grabs work all the time, footstools only work when you are literally doing nothing else but standing/shielding. You try to footstool any player who anti-airs properly and have fun getting Usmashed OOS.

As for their potential in combos they're still one of the most under-used moves of all time because no one maps them.

 

[Player -0]

If you're playing 3 different characters and need a ton of different control schemes for each of them then use 2 different name tags.

 

[skellitorman]

Its not like a grab at all. Grabs work all the time, footstools only work when you are literally doing nothing else but standing/shielding. You try to footstool any player who anti-airs properly and have fun getting Usmashed OOS.

As for their potential in combos they're still one of the most under-used moves of all time because no one maps them.

You said its not like a grab at all but it functions to beat shielding exactly like grabs do.

"try to footstool any player who anti-airs properly and have fun getting Usmashed OOS." Not every character has an ideal upsmash for using it OoS. Furthermore even if they all did, an opponent can choose to do an aerial attack instead. Usmash OoS doesn't beat every aerial approach, which is why an opponent would want to shield it in the first place and its not possible to react to the startup of footstools either.

Given that the opponent decides to block because he thinks an aerial attack was coming, footstools can become an effective option.

Even if they are underused, it is still effective. If it wasn't effective, then what's the purpose of keeping it anyways?

Given how they currently function, and the fact that they are unnecessary, do I feel that they should be removed.

 

[Blank Mauser]

You said its not like a grab at all but it functions to beat shielding exactly like grabs do.

"try to footstool any player who anti-airs properly and have fun getting Usmashed OOS." Not every character has an ideal upsmash for using it OoS. Furthermore even if they all did, an opponent can choose to do an aerial attack instead. Usmash OoS doesn't beat every aerial approach, which is why an opponent would want to shield it in the first place and its not possible to react to the startup of footstools either.

Given that the opponent decides to block because he thinks an aerial attack was coming, footstools can become an effective option.

Even if they are underused, it is still effective. If it wasn't effective, then what's the purpose of keeping it anyways?

Given how they currently function, and the fact that they are unnecessary, do I feel that they should be removed.

They are effective, but they are nowhere near uncounterable. Its just another mix-up and adds depth to a lot of characters. They're completely manageable and hard to pull off on players with good reactions. They aren't a 50/50 mix-up by any means since your opponent could do an aerial OOS, wave dash out of shield, literally anything BUT shield and they won't work. Grabs function for much more in smash than just beating shielding, while footstools are a "less risky"(Try being in that space above Mewtwo and have fun with that) way to punish ONLY predictable shielding situations and requires you to be EXTREMELY close. Hence both serve a purpose.

 

[Rᴏb]

footstools interrupting shields is the only dumb thing about them

 

[Soft Serve]

I think footstools are really strong, but they are just a mix-up. Having them share a button with jump is horrible because then they come out when you dont want them too. Its not hard to map x/y or L/R to footstool.
The one thing I would change about them is make the frame data for them consistant. Right now theres different groups of characters with different frame-data when the footstooler and the footstooled can act. Normally it gives the one doing it around 20 frames of advantage, but the timings differ from character to character. M2 is the one exception as he can act out of footstools a lot faster than anyone else. If they were normalized I think it would do a lot to make it look cleaner as a mechanic.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

Footstools are not a mixup if used optimally. They don't have any cooldown whatsoever on whiff, so you can just option select.


...random idea, but how about mapping footstools to jump + down, a la float/hover? Just about every character goes relatively unaffected, and if you accidentally footstool with Peach/Mewtwo you can hover immediately after (not to mention those are two characters that really enjoy getting footstools).
"The needs of the many outweigh the needs of Mewtwo."

 

[Strong Badam]

You can option select footstools, but doing so doesn't make your positioning in order to footstool any less unsafe. You have to be extremely close to an airborne opponent doing nothing and leaving yourself vulnerable to attack in order to successfully footstool someone.

 

[SpiderMad]

And the general inaccessibility of the taunt buttons promoting a control change just to optimally use them is a third nail in the coffin.

I wish one of the taunt buttons was a like a whammy bar that extended out that I could hit with my palm lol. The taunt pad should have been just a 2nd C-stick

I think footstools are really strong, but they are just a mix-up. Having them share a button with jump is horrible because then they come out when you dont want them too. Its not hard to map x/y or L/R to footstool.
The one thing I would change about them is make the frame data for them consistant. Right now theres different groups of characters with different frame-data when the footstooler and the footstooled can act. Normally it gives the one doing it around 20 frames of advantage, but the timings differ from character to character. M2 is the one exception as he can act out of footstools a lot faster than anyone else. If they were normalized I think it would do a lot to make it look cleaner as a mechanic.

I don't see a reason to make them consistent

 

[SpiderMad]

@ Soft Serve Said don't.

Pika's quick tech in place, dropping shield faster than average with Zelda, able to let go of the ledge faster than average with Link (but having overall less ledge invincibility to counter this attribute). Don't see how footstools specifically warrant standardization when not much else has. Breaking out of grabs is one of the few things I can think of that doesn't have a character specific attribute for the victim (and I'm not even sure on that, because I remember something about like Lucario's pummels being faster on lighter characters or something which would possibly detriments their escape time like Wobbling I'm guessing exploits).

 

[Soft Serve]

@ SpiderMad Yeah I dont really disagree. I like footstools how they are now, but changes to them wouldn't effect too much, just potentially change edge guarding certain characters or punishing preemptive shielding.

 

[Xcite]

C'mon people we all know why we love footstools. It gives characters that have no conventional means of pressuring shields to do just that. Imagine poor Ike, who can't even manage to throw out any move on Samus' shield because he'll undoubtedly be UpB'ed. Now introduce footstools. Ike can now effectively quickdraw turn around jump footstool Samus and hit her with a dair and followup with a bair. A true combo of crispiness and elegance. And in the end of the day isn't that what it's all about? Stylin' on our opponents.

 

[JosekiTheGreat]

Footstooling is an empty jump trick, which is like, as good as empty jumping is (i.e., an acceptable mindgame and not a lot more) as far as I can tell.

I'd say my least favorite thing about footstooling is that people have to change their button layouts in tournaments, so if it ever becomes popular I'll be pretty salty about watching people change their buttons every match.

Edit: Off topic - Why do shines trade with grabs? Just feels sloppy to me. I get pretty salty when it happens just because like, I hit them, but then they still grabbed me? :[ Im not saying that I would even mind if grab beat shine, I just don't like seeing them take the electric-y shine hit and then I'm still grabbed, feels like this could be cleaned up.

 

[Strong Badam]

Edit: Off topic - Why do shines trade with grabs? Just feels sloppy to me. I get pretty salty when it happens just because like, I hit them, but then they still grabbed me? :[ Im not saying that I would even mind if grab beat shine, I just don't like seeing them take the electric-y shine hit and then I'm still grabbed, feels like this could be cleaned up.

This happens with every attack that doesn't have full-body intangibility (aka invincibility) and has since Brawl's release in 2008.

 

[SpiderMad]

I'd say my least favorite thing about footstooling is that people have to change their button layouts in tournaments, so if it ever becomes popular I'll be pretty salty about watching people change their buttons every match.

Menu re-design codes have already been implemented (I forget what for though, think training mode is in a different spot or something), The custom control screen might be able to be eventually moved to a closer spot or button combination while in versus mode.

@ SpiderMad Yeah I dont really disagree. I like footstools how they are now, but changes to them wouldn't effect too much, just potentially change edge guarding certain characters or punishing preemptive shielding.

Yeah man totally, it's like IMO they should be normalized but then again not standardized; it would be a cleaner mechanic in the upper mesosphere but bringing down the lower stratosphere. The prevailing exemplar of preemptive merit towards agreeing and disagreeing with oneself at the same time. Wait hold on, this is actually 1FD here! I'm at ICG's house but with Bamesy's computer but logged into SpiderMad's account! YOU ALL ROCK!!! So you're on the fence on whether or not you want footstools standardized?

 

[shairn]

Footstooling is an empty jump trick, which is like, as good as empty jumping is (i.e., an acceptable mindgame and not a lot more) as far as I can tell.

I'd say my least favorite thing about footstooling is that people have to change their button layouts in tournaments, so if it ever becomes popular I'll be pretty salty about watching people change their buttons every match.

Edit: Off topic - Why do shines trade with grabs? Just feels sloppy to me. I get pretty salty when it happens just because like, I hit them, but then they still grabbed me? :[ Im not saying that I would even mind if grab beat shine, I just don't like seeing them take the electric-y shine hit and then I'm still grabbed, feels like this could be cleaned up.

Grab armor, happened in Melee too except in Melee you didn't take damage.

Speaking of Melee, I played a bunch of Melee today and it just made me wish Sheik still had her bthrow and dthrow in PM.

 

[Soft Serve]

Grab armor, happened in Melee too except in Melee you didn't take damage.

Speaking of Melee, I played a bunch of Melee today and it just made me wish Sheik still had her bthrow and dthrow in PM.

In melee shines still had invincibility, so they would just straight beat grabs if they happened on the same frame. In PM grabs win. I think thats the change he meant.

 

[didds]

I feel that footstooling should be removed since I can't (don't) do it and others can so I'm at the disadvantage.
I don't want to learn.
Is everyone convinced?

 

[JANKX]

All the advanced techniques in this game makes me wish for a controller with twice as many buttons and sticks. Even so, I think I footstools is not so difficult with the default layout, as it is somewhat intuitive in the sense that it feels like inputting a jump with the d-pad.

As far as alternate button mapping goes for making certain ATs more accesible, I find it frustrating that I have to map Z -> Attack to use DACUS, and makes me wonder if it's possible for PMDT to modify the game so that the regular Grab input allows you to DACUS with all characters.

So if I want a layout optimized for easy access to DACUS, footstools, and jump-cancelled grabs, I'd need to adjust the vanilla layout with the following re-mappings:

Z -> Attack
X -> Taunt
A -> Grab

Is that even intuitive? Not quite. Can I get used to it? Maybe. But I swear, if DACUS could be used with the Grab input with all characters and footstools could be mapped to an unused jump button without the taunt nonsense, these ATs would get a lot more play.

 

[Frost | Odds]

You realize you have two triggers, right? Just use L/R for attack, X/Y for taunt, and you're set.

 

[PlateProp]

All the advanced techniques in this game makes me wish for a controller with twice as many buttons and sticks. Even so, I think I footstools is not so difficult with the default layout, as it is somewhat intuitive in the sense that it feels like inputting a jump with the d-pad.

As far as alternate button mapping goes for making certain ATs more accesible, I find it frustrating that I have to map Z -> Attack to use DACUS, and makes me wonder if it's possible for PMDT to modify the game so that the regular Grab input allows you to DACUS with all characters.

So if I want a layout optimized for easy access to DACUS, footstools, and jump-cancelled grabs, I'd need to adjust the vanilla layout with the following re-mappings:

Z -> Attack
X -> Taunt
A -> Grab

Is that even intuitive? Not quite. Can I get used to it? Maybe. But I swear, if DACUS could be used with the Grab input with all characters and footstools could be mapped to an unused jump button without the taunt nonsense, these ATs would get a lot more play.

Use a classic controller

Then all you have to do is dash, down c stick up control stick A and hold zR/zL

 

[JANKX]

Use a classic controller

Then all you have to do is dash, down c stick up control stick A and hold zR/zL

I've thought about using a classic controller since it gives me one extra shoulder button, but it never felt like a true Smash controller, and I especially dislike the left analog stick placement.

 

[JANKX]

You realize you have two triggers, right? Just use L/R for attack, X/Y for taunt, and you're set.

Haha, this could work for me, but I require L and R to both be shield, since I use the L for L-Cancelling and R for Wavedashing.

 

[PlateProp]

I've thought about using a classic controller since it gives me one extra shoulder button, but it never felt like a true Smash controller, and I especially dislike the left analog stick placement.

You get used to it. Personally, it's the only controller with that kind of stick placement that I like.

 

[Player -0]

I just do the index finger thing where you swing it over to "A." I don't use DACUS much unless it's awesome on the character like Ganon's. Also for Ganon's I can just use "Z" anyway.

 

[JANKX]

I just do the index finger thing where you swing it over to "A." I don't use DACUS much unless it's awesome on the character like Ganon's. Also for Ganon's I can just use "Z" anyway.

I pretty much do the same thing. It's always fun to concoct a crazy custom button scheme, but I understand that anything is possible in the standard layout with slight adjustments to finger placement.

But seriously, though, I hope PMDT figures out a way to make footstools more accessible, because if then it would be commonplace and we could actually test if the mechanic breaks the game in some places.

 

[SpiderMad]

I pretty much do the same thing. It's always fun to concoct a crazy custom button scheme, but I understand that anything is possible in the standard layout with slight adjustments to finger placement.

But seriously, though, I hope PMDT figures out a way to make footstools more accessible, because if then it would be commonplace and we could actually test if the mechanic breaks the game in some places.

Or someone could make a good guide on how to glue a miniature whammy bar on top of the taunt pad

you might be able to rubberband a stick/pencil on to it

 

[InfinityCollision]

Footstools make me wish the GC controller had a ZL button. It's the one thing I don't like about the controller.

 

[Professor Pro]

When 3.5 comes out, how long do you think it will take for tier lists to be made?

I'm actually curious to see where everyone will start putting characters lol.

 

[InfinityCollision]

99.9% chance some poor soul posts a serious tier list within 48 hours of 3.5 release.

 

[Frost | Odds]

When 3.5 comes out, how long do you think it will take for tier lists to be made?

I'm actually curious to see where everyone will start putting characters lol.

About an hour and a half.

Melee elitists will look at the changelist, and immediately put Fox on the bottom of midtier, or top of low tier.

Mewtwo, Ivysaur, and Pit players will look at the changelist and put their respective characters on the bottom.

Mario players will just play the game because they don't give a good goddamn about no tiers.

Luigi players will be overcome with seizures of catatonic laughter, and begin flooding the boards with tier lists that consist solely of 42 weegee's .

Sethlon will smirk at the very notion of 'tiers', and never lose a game in any national until the release of 4.0.

The two Jigglypuff players that are probably out there somewhere will spend 5000 hours labbing rest setups with her, only to conclude that she's still terrible.

Pikachu players will swear off every other character, and devote themselves entirely to their one pure character. For about 45 minutes.

Dedede, Sheik, and Wario players will troll the boards for subsequent months about how their characters 'need buffs', and "aren't good enough at gimping yet", and start a Twitter trend of #toldyouso with pictures of Wario pasted on inanimate objects.

Bowser and Ganon players will weep into their cups, knowing that their characters will never be viable, and that nobody cares.

 

[steelguttey]

and olimar players are gonna discover more bugs until the point that playing olimar feels like you deleted system 32

 

[TreK]

I'll be way too busy geeking out on the debug mode to care.
But I'd be surprised if it took more than 24 hours for some guy to claim Puff is the new Mewtwo.

 

[Phan7om]

Some guy is gonna find something and claim its OP, and then when its shown on VGBC everyone will blindly follow and agree.

 

[1FD]

I'll be way too busy geeking out on the debug mode to care.

Best

99.9% chance some poor soul posts a serious tier list within 48 hours of 3.5 release.

If I have net access I'll do it in 48 mins after DL

When 3.5 comes out, how long do you think it will take for tier lists to be made?

I'm actually curious to see where everyone will start putting characters lol.

Wouldn't most playtesters be able to do it pretty quick?
Are you extra curious because you have ideas or what? lol

hmm a 50/50 for edgegaurd/recovery

isn't this what people want out of 3.5

DE BALLUNSE
IM MELeletiiiinngggggg

 

[didds]

and I'll forget about the update and read a book instead