Tier List Speculation

[Plum]

let's just buff Sheik guys
return Melee Dthrow
make Bthrow CG everyone Dthrow doesn't
cut landing lag from Up B, act out of Up B at any point
needles are always charged

that sounds pretty overpowered though, so we'll remove her Down B to balance everything out

 

[steelguttey]

they CAN be buffed tho. lets look at what their gimmick is.

ice climbers WITH both characters is top tier. the thing that balances them is that if you take away one of the ice climbers. the other one is the worst character in the game. PMBR should actually make a character that does this. no infnites, no 0-death combos, just what they were intended to be.

 

[TreK]

It's not even a challenge to separate Nana from Popo in PM (compared to Brawl, idk about Melee). Nana doesn't DI so just combo Popo and either he decides not to DI and your combos deal 80% instead of 40%, or he decides to DI and Nana is left behind and they just turned into the worst character in the game for the next ten seconds.
Getting hit is just that much more punishing for Ice Climbers than it is for the rest of the cast.

The matchup is a blast as Ivysaur. I get 4-5 solar beams on a bad day lol.

 

[Terotrous]

ice climbers WITH both characters is top tier.

I totally disagree, and that's the whole problem with them. I would say that even with both Ice Climbers, they're still mid / low tier. With the chaingrabs gone, there's almost no reason to fear Nana, she doesn't add much damage to their already awful neutral game and if she gets a grab it's no big deal, so you don't even really have to focus on killing her off, you can just fight Popo normally and ignore Nana and still do well. There are many characters who are much better than both Ice Climbers. I wouldn't even go to top tier characters like Mewtwo and Fox (though obviously they are), I legitimately think a character like ROB is superior to both Ice Climbers by himself. He's got much better range, projectiles, recovery, defense, and combos than they do. And ROB is probably only mid tier himself.

It SHOULD be the case that both Ice Climbers is the scariest character in the game, so you have to separate them and kill off Nana to do well, but for various reasons that just isn't the way it works right now.

 

[KayB]

Oh gosh Ice Climber talk.

@ Hylian

 

[steelguttey]

my whole paragraph was about what your last sentence was lol

that was all about what icies SHOULD be

 

[Ripple]

They should be super strong to begin with. Like Ganon Strong. When you kill nana , popo gets weaker over time. Eventually he week be half as weak s he was

 

[steelguttey]

Oh gosh Ice Climber talk.

@ Hylian

sad thing is hylian doesnt even main ic's cause of how bad they are or am i talking out of my asshole

 

[Zx2963]

Maybe ICs don't seem good because they aren't in the right hands, like many underated characters

 

[mimgrim]

Maybe ICs don't seem good because they aren't in the right hands, like many underated characters

Or maybe they're just bad.

 

[FlamingForce]

Maybe ICs don't seem good because they aren't in the right hands, like many underated characters

No they're just bad.
Their PM incarnation is not that different from their Melee one, they gained and lost a couple of desyncs which is just not that significant.

Trust me, they've been in plenty of good hands.

 

[Life]

Here's an idea, if it's even possible to implement.

1. Give ICs their handoffs back.

2. Make it so that mashing out of Ice Climber grabs takes slightly longer, but for each consecutive grab the timer does not (fully) reset, so mashing will eventually break you out if ICs attempt to simply do a Brawl-style zero-to-death handoff.

3. Make it easy to SDI the moves they usually use to do non-handoff chaingrabs (e.g. fair) so that the player on the receiving end can try to throw off the ICs player during the fancy parts.

4. Rebalance accordingly.

This does a handful of things: it gives counterplay to the grab infinites while still making grab combos scary and tense; it decreases the importance of grab combos in the early percents, which is when they'd be most impactful as infinites (nobody cares if they're already at 200% when their opponent starts an infinite); it forces the ICs player to make decisions while executing a grab combo; and aesthetically, it combines the brutal, metronome-like quality of Brawl's handoffs with the more ornate Melee-style combos.

 

[Exodo]

People get over it, fox is not number one anymore

 

[MLGF]

NO!
FOX NEEDS NERFS! OBVIOUSLY THE FACT THAT MELEE PLAYERS, AND GOOD ONES, PLAY PROJECT M AND USE THEIR MELEE MAINS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS TOURNEY RESUTS! HE'S CLEARLY BROKE! BAAAAAAAWWWWW

I think that's about right.

 

[Exodo]

NO!
FOX NEEDS NERFS! OBVIOUSLY THE FACT THAT MELEE PLAYERS, AND GOOD ONES, PLAY PROJECT M AND USE THEIR MELEE MAINS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HIS TOURNEY RESUTS! HE'S CLEARLY BROKE! BAAAAAAAWWWWW

I think that's about right.

The closest thing i see in fox of being broken is that godlike up smash of his.

 

[9bit]

Fox is really good. But it's the laser that makes him what some people would call "broken"

At least, that's true for Melee. The reduction in damage in PM might have "fixed" it

 

[KayB]

I still think that the Sakurai combo is dumb and should be removed.

 

[mimgrim]

The laser could only be "broken" because of his speed though. I mean, it doesn't do any stun and even only does 1% from a distance so what makes them so good is how fast and mobile he is, and they shoot out pretty freaking fast as well, so characters that aren't all the mobile (like Ganon or Bowser for instance) are gonna get decimated by a runaway Fox. Other then that, I don't see what is so "broken" about them.

But there are a couple of way to fix that "brokeness" like totally getting rid of his laser, a lot of people would dislike but it would definitely take a good defensive option away from him without changing the core of his offense and making him even more of a glass canon, or slowing him down some, which I am against, or slow down his firing rate and speed of lasers.

 

[ELI-mination]

Fox must be bad tho, that's why people use him to win

Because what better method to win than cping a weak character in gfs

 

[Zx2963]

Fox must be bad tho, that's why people use him to win

Because what better method to win than cping a weak character in gfs

Today I actually watched the Grand Finals of CEO, and I was disappointed in Zero switching to Fox to win.

 

[mimgrim]

Considering how his Pit got 3-0'd, and how it was GFs, I can't blame him.

Do what it takes to win and nothing less.

 

[Zx2963]

Considering how his Pit got 3-0'd, and how it was GFs, I can't blame him.

Do what it takes to win and nothing less.

If that includes run and gunning and playing keep away, it'd be better to lose then to look like your playing cheap. But to get back to thread, they need to make Fox as technical as he is in Melee (meaning make his tech frame perfect to Melee).

 

[mimgrim]

If that includes run and gunning and playing keep away, it'd be better to lose then to look like your playing cheap.

No. Just... no.

It would be better to win, especially when the reward is money, a tournament then to lose soas not to have a playstyle that looks "cheap".

 

[Zx2963]

No. Just... no.

It would be better to win, especially when the reward is money, a tournament then to lose soas not to have a playstyle that looks "cheap".

Oh well, to each and their own

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

Ey Herz n ider! Y don re meik Fox's wekovureh b3ttr? CUKEEZ,

On a slightly more serious note, given what we've seen of Awestin and other Ness mains,how do you find Ness to be competitive-wise?

 

[Zx2963]

Ey Herz n ider! Y don re meik Fox's wekovureh b3ttr? CUKEEZ,

On a slightly more serious note, given what we've seen of Awestin and other Ness mains,how do you find Ness to be competitive-wise?

He's fine honestly, not awesome but not bad either. Lucas though outclasses him in every way

 

[steelguttey]

He's fine honestly, not awesome but not bad either. Fox though outclasses him in every way

if we turn that argument into falco vs fox, look at the bright pretty flames that happen

 

[mimgrim]

Ey Herz n ider! Y don re meik Fox's wekovureh b3ttr? CUKEEZ,

On a slightly more serious note, given what we've seen of Awestin and other Ness mains,how do you find Ness to be competitive-wise?

I think Ness might be on the higher end of the scale. Not top tier. But maybe high tier, lower high tier portion probably, or upper mid tier at the least. He his a solid character with great mobility, good kill power, good shield pressure, great projectile, good edge guard, good recovery (as in he can recover from very deep down), a pseudo Shine of sorts in the form of Magnet, good throws, good combo game, and good punish game. But his neutral game is pretty predictable as it basically consists of Fire and Fair (though they are really good moves), despite his good recovery it is still linear and entirely edgeguardable, the only ranged moves he has are Fair, Fire, and his Smashes which leads into him being more predictable and is still easily outranged by quite a few characters.

I'm sure there's more, but eh. You should get the gist.

 

[shairn]

Ness' recovery is bad, so long as you take out his double jump, he's essentially dead if you know how to get rid of him. Magnet is ultra slow and really only useful for the dthrow -> jump magnet -> DJC fair.

Other than that he's pretty good.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

Link is ****ing broken.

Proof: http://s12.postimg.org/xu47stcm5/link_OP_proof

 

[mimgrim]

Ness has a good recovery lol. He can use it from very low to where it would be to risky for most character to try and "eat" PKT1. Not to mention PKT2 has invincibility frames to it. There is nothing bad about it besides it being linear.

Link is ****ing broken.

Proof: http://s12.postimg.org/xu47stcm5/link_OP_proof

"404 Not Found"

You are right, that link is broken.

 

[shairn]

This is PM, 90% of characters can recover from the depths of hell. It's bad because it has long startup, can be eaten very easily, is very difficult to sweetspot anywhere but from the bottom of the stage, and is very predictable. People just need to know when to respect it.

 

[Deleted member]

If that includes run and gunning and playing keep away, it'd be better to lose then to look like your playing cheap.

You're the kind of player that I like to needle once and then shino stall against for the full 8 minutes in friendlies.

Yes I actually do this btw

 

[Xcite]

Does anyone else feel that PMBR should remove Lucas OU smash attacks? As a Lucas main, I find it a little bit ridiculous that he is able to charge his already decent smash attacks into something completely monstrous. IMO I feel that having this option available to him takes away from his character development, because what would be the point of continuing a combo chain when at 60% Dair to OU Up smash kills more than half the cast? It's a radical change, but I think that in the long run, it'll help improve his meta. In exchange, I'd like to see his PK Burst become more refined in either being a KO move, or a combo move, because it'd be a reasonable compensation that's also hella cool. And obviously, which I'm pretty sure will be changed in the next update, is reducing his dash grab active frames, so it's not as ludicrous. Thoughts?

Edit: Changed Offense Up to OU so there's no confusion to readers thinking I meant only Up smash.

 

[XavierSylfaen]

buff falcon, not enough people use him

give him walljumps out of raptor boost or something

Ness has a good recovery lol. He can use it from very low to where it would be to risky for most character to try and "eat" PKT1. Not to mention PKT2 has invincibility frames to it. There is nothing bad about it besides it being linear.



"404 Not Found"

You are right, that link is broken.

yeah that was the joke

edit: also shairn can I have that full res oreki penguin pic I need it for reasons

 

[Apollo Ali]

This is PM, 90% of characters can recover from the depths of hell. It's bad because it has long startup, can be eaten very easily, is very difficult to sweetspot anywhere but from the bottom of the stage, and is very predictable. People just need to know when to respect it.

A good Ness player can sweetspot from most angles (above, below, and lateral) and can magnet stall vary their PKT2. Not to mention it's a massive risk for a very large portion of the cast to approach a Ness who is smart with his recovery since they can get KO'd by percent or stage spike. You're right that if you know when to respect it, it becomes more manageable, but for a lot of characters, its very difficult to consistently challenge.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Does anyone else feel that PMBR should remove Lucas Offense Up smash attacks? As a Lucas main, I find it a little bit ridiculous that he is able to charge his already decent smash attacks into something completely monstrous. IMO I feel that having this option available to him takes away from his character development, because what would be the point of continuing a combo chain when at 60% Dair to OU Up smash kills more than half the cast? It's a radical change, but I think that in the long run, it'll help improve his meta. In exchange, I'd like to see his PK Burst become more refined in either being a KO move, or a combo move, because it'd be a reasonable compensation that's also hella cool. And obviously, which I'm pretty sure will be changed in the next update, is reducing his dash grab active frames, so it's not as ludicrous. Thoughts?

The shouldn't take away what makes him unique. His up smash has a lot of ending lag so it's not broken or anything. Lucas as a whole is a good character but he's not broken.

 

[KillJay]

Does anyone else feel that PMBR should remove Lucas Offense Up smash attacks?

Hell. No.

And I'll tell you why. Lucas has very good KO moves with his smashes, yes, but the simple fact of the matter is that his Up Smash is super risky.

Long startup, tons of lag, and is hard to hit people with unless they're in the air already.

Offensive Up took a very stupid move that was ripped directly from Ness and changed it into something that ACTUALLY HAD TO DO WITH LUCAS IN MOTHER 3 AND added a whole new way to play Lucas that wasn't possible before.

 

[shairn]

Hell. No.

And I'll tell you why. Lucas has very good KO moves with his smashes, yes, but the simple fact of the matter is that his Up Smash is super risky.

Long startup, tons of lag, and is hard to hit people with unless they're in the air already.

Which would matter if Lucas didn't have guaranteed setups for usmash

 

[Hylian]

sad thing is hylian doesnt even main ic's cause of how bad they are or am i talking out of my *******

I main Lucario and Link. I do use IC's in tournament though. I used them at the last tournament I went to placing 5th out of 80ish people, and lost my losers match with them as well as winning some bracket matches with them.