Tier List Speculation

[didds]

just stop playing good characters, avoid the nerf gun

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

We should have a thread dedicated to nerfs/buffs so people would actually talk about tiers in this one.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

man this reminds me so much of the balancing controversies in CS:GO. everyone wanted the AK, M4, awp to stay JUST as broken as in CS 1.6 but any time a new gun got anywhere near their level everyone cries for Valve to fix it (see p90 and autosniper).

The thing is it's really good for a game for some stuff to be objectively better than other stuff. perfect equality, while it sounds good in theory, results in a really messy and confusing metagame. it's kind of nice to have a couple god-tier things as long as they have like, some tough matchups.

anyways IMO people need to stop complaining about fox and falco. their metagame is already pretty much fully developed and I ****ing promise that when other characters develop they won't be able to hold on to the top 2 spots.

i kind of hate frequent rebalancing anyways. it's not like there's any brawl MK level broken characters. melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch. every time it happens people have to relearn their characters and it can be a big turnoff for the whole game, never being sure if your favorite fun character is gonna get a nerf bat. at this point updates should be yearly at least, like the street fighter model. it's like wine, let it sit and it'll mature and get better with time. shaking it up so often is ****ty, the game will never develop the type of character melee had.

 

[JOE!]

melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch.

PAL says hi

 

[Circle_Breaker]

PAL says hi

lol yeah like PAL was anywhere close to the tweaks in any moderate PM update. and like PAL became tournament standard.

 

[trash?]

"melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch."

it did tho, that's why there's 1.2 NTSC versions and PAL versions with nerfed spacies

tbh it's absurd that sheik got nerfed to PAL level but not the spacies when space animals are clearly better in NTSC and it's not like fox was bad in PAL, he was still one of the best in the game

I could see falco not having all his PAL changes though, his dair's too integral

 

[Circle_Breaker]

today I ****ed up by forgetting about europeans

 

[didds]

you're not my PAL, Buddy

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

"melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch."

it did tho, that's why there's 1.2 NTSC versions and PAL versions with nerfed spacies

tbh it's absurd that sheik got nerfed to PAL level but not the spacies when space animals are clearly better in NTSC and it's not like fox was bad in PAL, he was still one of the best in the game

I could see falco not having all his PAL changes though, his dair's too integral

I'd rather have a lesser nerfed Fox than Sheik's down throw.

 

[FlamingForce]

"melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch."

it did tho, that's why there's 1.2 NTSC versions and PAL versions with nerfed spacies

tbh it's absurd that sheik got nerfed to PAL level but not the spacies when space animals are clearly better in NTSC and it's not like fox was bad in PAL, he was still one of the best in the game

I could see falco not having all his PAL changes though, his dair's too integral

Falco's dair works perfectly fine in PAL, only the weak hit sends opponents away.
Yeah it's a nerf but it's honestly not all that significant.

 

[MLGF]

I WISH Pal was tourney norm Melee...

 

[| Kailex |]

Dammit ganon doesnt need buffs

 

[MLGF]

...That's literally the first time I've ever heard that.

 

[Mr.Random]

Ganon needs something to help his neutral game. It's pretty bad

 

[| Kailex |]

Damn, I cant even prove that ganon doesnt need buffs.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

why spacies are somehow supposed to be special and untouchable when every other new tech in other characters get tossed out immediately is beyond me

I don't know who gave you the idea that the space animals are exempt from balance changes, but they're wrong. They're just as likely as anyone else to receive changes, especially since we have the entire roster now to draw data from.

 

[Mr.Random]

I don't know who gave you the idea that the space animals are exempt from balance changes, but they're wrong. They're just as likely as anyone else to receive changes, especially since we have the entire roster now to draw data from.

Fox got nerfed 3 times in a row while Falco got nerfed twice.
Fox
Higher ceilings
No 1 frame invincibility on shine. This means it trades with a lot more moves.
Lasers basically do 1 damage
Falco
Shine has no invincibility
Lasers do like 1 damage.
Both also got a nerf to their recoveries but I'm not sure if it was intentional.
Both Firefox and Firebird don't carry as much momentum at the end and they seem slightly shorter.

 

[jtm94]

I honestly think Ganon is fine where he is and even though he's still not that good, his attacks are too strong.
No matter what you do he's going to be large slow and heavy, unless you get this man a shrink ray and a treadmill.

Higher ceilings don't really nerf Fox. If that was the intention of that change it was a really bad job in every way. Just weaken the move that is too strong. It's like you go to the store to buy a table and it's too big to fit in your vehicle, so you buy a whole new vehicle just to take it home. All in all Upsmash still KOs early for how fast and how guaranteed he can land it. Also uair.

 

[Mr.Random]

I honestly think Ganon is fine where he is and even though he's still not that good, his attacks are too strong.
No matter what you do he's going to be large slow and heavy, unless you get this man a shrink ray and a treadmill.

He's strong but that doesn't matter if he can barely hit you. I know there are good Ganons out there but he definitely needs something. A better way of dealing with projectiles or a better OoS option.

 

[Bleck]

why spacies are somehow supposed to be special and untouchable when every other new tech in other characters get tossed out immediately is beyond me

'cause melee

 

[Mr.Random]

'cause melee

Shine nerf was pretty significant for both.
Fox got nerfed 3 times in a row while Falco got nerfed twice.
Fox
Higher ceilings
No 1 frame invincibility on shine. This means it trades with a lot more moves.
Lasers basically do 1 damage
Falco
Shine has no invincibility
Lasers do like 1 damage.
Both also got a nerf to their recoveries but I'm not sure if it was intentional.
Both Firefox and Firebird don't carry as much momentum at the end and they seem slightly shorter.

 

[Terotrous]

Hearing Mario nerfs is scaring the **** out of me.

Hey, you were the one asking for Mario nerfs. I agree I don't think he needs much.

i kind of hate frequent rebalancing anyways. it's not like there's any brawl MK level broken characters. melee was the best ever and it never got a single balancing patch. every time it happens people have to relearn their characters and it can be a big turnoff for the whole game, never being sure if your favorite fun character is gonna get a nerf bat. at this point updates should be yearly at least, like the street fighter model. it's like wine, let it sit and it'll mature and get better with time. shaking it up so often is ****ty, the game will never develop the type of character melee had.

Street Fighter 4 would have died if Super SF4 never came out, Sagat was just ludicrously dominant and the game didn't have much room to grow. Arguably true for AE as well with Yun.


Also, it's been 7 months since the last update to PM. It's not like they're monthly or anything.

I don't know who gave you the idea that the space animals are exempt from balance changes, but they're wrong. They're just as likely as anyone else to receive changes, especially since we have the entire roster now to draw data from.

Because any time people bring up the concept of nerfs to the spacies people are like "well we can't change them in any substantial way because the Melee players will quit the game". Some of this has even come from PM team members, albeit not recently.

 

[Mr.Random]

Hey, you were the one asking for Mario nerfs. I agree I don't think he needs much.

Oh yeah fireballs definitely need nerfs. The fact that someone openly admitted that they made top 16 by spamming them rubs me wrong.

 

[ELI-mination]

I definitely understand what you mean Canon. In this game though, characters have absurd punishes on spacies. 0 to deaths and easy edgeguards. I understand spacies have an almost perfect neutral game but we aren't perfect so we'll make a mistake and get punished hard. I feel once people get better at edge guarding and punishing then complaints will lower. Although I'll be honest, I'm somewhat defensive right now. Hearing that both of your mains might get nerfed is never fun.

Oh you're not perfect? So neither are the people who are executing these "absurd" 0-death punishes on spacies. These are two sides of the same coin.

I'm having a lot of trouble believing all this nonsense about spacies being not so good but they're not losing simply because people haven't gotten good enough at punishes yet.

 

[jtm94]

I have a proposition.

So you know how Ganon's Warlock Punch is useless? I propose changing the move into Ganon putting on Roller Skates, thus solving his mobility issues.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

I have a proposition.

So you know how Ganon's Warlock Punch is useless? I propose changing the move into Ganon putting on Roller Skates, thus solving his mobility issues.

XD! Roller skates!!!

Maybe he could actually use his NB to use his sword? You know, the thing he's had since before he was even added into smash? (Nice job Sakurai)

 

[trash?]

tbh just make it a zangief-style SPD grapple

he's basically a grappler anyways, right down to being the worst in the game

 

[DrinkingFood]

Shine nerf was pretty significant for both.
Fox got nerfed 3 times in a row while Falco got nerfed twice.
Fox
Higher ceilings
No 1 frame invincibility on shine. This means it trades with a lot more moves.
Lasers basically do 1 damage
Falco
Shine has no invincibility
Lasers do like 1 damage.
Both also got a nerf to their recoveries but I'm not sure if it was intentional.
Both Firefox and Firebird don't carry as much momentum at the end and they seem slightly shorter.

The shine nerf only changes whether or not they can trade with shine. Or whether or not they can be grabbed on that one frame. It's not a big difference. If there was ever an insignificant nerf, it's probably this one. Shine still beats grabs after aerials up to -5 on shield, as opposed to -6 as in Melee. That's probably the only consequence of the change that will ever matter, and rarely at that.
Lasers do 1 damage only at a distance. They still do 2 at medium range and 3 anywhere near fox/falco.
Also ceilings are not higher. They are now on average the same height as Melee. Previous to the ceiling raise in 3.0, they were lower on average than Melee's.

 

[Pickledpotatoes]

tbh just make it a zangief-style SPD grapple

he's basically a grappler anyways, right down to being the worst in the game

I want wrestler Ganon right now

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

That shine nerf does make difference. People don't plan on beating the shine, but it sure does happen.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Except it doesn't change whether or not you can beat shine. It only makes shine able to trade, except in the case of grabs, but going for a grab when you can get shined is generally still a bad idea anyways.

 

[Mr.Random]

Except it doesn't change whether or not you can beat shine. It only makes shine able to trade, except in the case of grabs, but going for a grab when you can get shined is generally still a bad idea anyways.

If you ever get hit by a late aerial you can grab unlike Melee. I've been doing testing. Only late strong nair is safe on shield. Same with Falco's dair.

Oh you're not perfect? So neither are the people who are executing these "absurd" 0-death punishes on spacies. These are two sides of the same coin.

I'm having a lot of trouble believing all this nonsense about spacies being not so good but they're not losing simply because people haven't gotten good enough at punishes yet.

M2K does 0 to death punishes with a lot of characters. If he can do it we all can with practice.

 

[DrinkingFood]

The difference is exactly one frame. Late aerials are safe on shield in both games. If you aren't getting that then your testing is being performed wrong.

 

[Mr.Random]

The difference is exactly one frame. Late aerials are safe on shield in both games. If you aren't getting that then your testing is being performed wrong.

I'm talking both games side by side testing. You'll take 5 or 8 % but grab will beat shine. ONLY strong nair/ dair can't be grabbed in PM. The invincibility prevented late nair/ dair from being grabbed in Melee. In PM you can grab it.

 

[trash?]

so, nobody is perfect and nobody could possibly perfect fox's punish game... but also people have proven themselves to be perfect in their punish game so you can't complain?

I think there's a flaw in this argument

 

[Fenrir VII]

The grab armor is a huge indirect nerf to Fox and Falco that isn't really talked about. It makes shuffled shine not universally safe, and we all know the grab combos against them.

 

[DrinkingFood]

I'm talking both games side by side testing. You'll take 5 or 8 % but grab will beat shine. ONLY strong nair/ dair can't be grabbed in PM. The invincibility prevented late nair/ dair from being grabbed in Melee. In PM you can grab it.

Are you doing frame by frame testing or are you just winging it with a buddy/your feet and hoping you are consistent?
Because, like I said, there's only one frame when you can grab shine in PM that you couldn't in Melee and 95% of the time that frame did not make a difference. I do not think you properly understand what a late aerial is. If you are grabbing them before they can shine, they are doing the aerial too early.

The grab armor is a huge indirect nerf to Fox and Falco that isn't really talked about. It makes shuffled shine not universally safe, and we all know the grab combos against them.

Grab armor was in Melee too. Only difference was in Melee the grabber took 0 damage.
It worked on any move except shine/rest. Shine's removal of frame 1 invincibility allows it to actually lose to grabs on that one frame. SHFFL aerial->shine is still safe unless you didn't know how to do it safely in the first place.

 

[Phan7om]

Correct me if I am wrong, but there isnt any new grab armor... well there is grab armor, but it replaced the grab invincibility that existed in Melee.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

No character needs any significant nerfs; just things to take the edge off some of the silly stuff they can pull off. Lucas shouldn't have a kill throw and his smashes need toned down, Fox's defense game needs to be toned down, Falco shouldn't have a fast, infinite range, unclankable projectile, Mewtwo's Teleport needs to be able to be read and punished, Mario's Fireballs are overwhelmingly good, so on and so forth.

 

[Deleted member]

It's possible to SDI out of Dair in some situations. Also, making USmash weaker makes Dair -> USmash less deadly.

Lucas also has other confirms into USmash. Magnet / Wavedash Backwards / USmash is also possible, and there are a bunch of dacus setups too.

I'mpretty okay with upsmash combos tbh, i don't think lucas is too good in any way, I just think dair > upsmash is a little too automatic. but maybe i just don't know enough about the character. either way i wouldn't actually change him.