PandaPanda Senketsu
Smash Journeyman
You should go to socal, there are so many ganon mains here lol. This is not even close to what the Ganon match up looks like, play better Ganon mains.
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Right. It's not like she has any massively disjointed aerials that will spike you or slam you into the stage.
I think you mean "She wanders back into the tether zone, and comes back anyway."
Even if she weren't broken against the rest of the cast (she is), you think it's okay for her to have 100-0 MUs against an entire class of chars?
shairn
Your favorite anime is bad.
I don't think it's wrong for a character to have an impossible matchup, so long as it's not a widespread problem. Being 100-0 against three or four out of 41 characters is pretty tame. I believe you can get used to another character for the sake of this matchup.
mimgrim
Smash Hero
No character is that broken in this game.
Heck, not even Brawl MK was so broken as to have a 100-0 MU.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
bad is an understatement. ganon is unusable trash garbage left on a new jersey road side. ganon is the only character in bottom tier by himself. even brawl players are like yo this ganon sucks.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
I mentioned five. Learn to count, please.
There's probably more.
And enough players in my region play Ivy that I had to quit Bowser entirely. There was literally no way to win against a bunch of our top players as a result of my character choice.
Whatever you say, dude. I'll believe it when I see any big character player take a set off a good Ivy.
It's not purely to do with how broken Ivy is, though that certainly helps. It's her interaction with the big characters: they're completely free for her to edgeguard, they can't escape uthrow->upb, and they can't not get grabbed if a razor leaf pops out.
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good thing there's only like two good ivy players out there currently and they still lose
results matter, whining "WELL IN THEORY THIS IS BROKEN" without actually showing any proof or results that speak to this claim is meaningless
results matter, whining "WELL IN THEORY THIS IS BROKEN" without actually showing any proof or results that speak to this claim is meaningless
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
Yeah because there's so many big character players that make it to the Semifinals to face the Ivy players.
Wait, it's almost like they're all garbage (with the possible exception of Zard) even before the impossible MU
Christ, it's not like we're in a tier list speculation thread.
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so your reasoning is "my point can't be proven, ergo my point is correct"?
speculation still needs something to base itself off of. you have nothing to work with, but you still want people to take you seriously, and these two ideals will always be at odds
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
My point can be proven. Go take 30 seconds in the lab instead of being an obstreperous [whoa, a synonym for 'donkey' is censored? my bad].
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I'm not the one getting aggressive over others for thinking a mid-tier that can be dealt with is, in fact, a mid-tier that can be dealt with, but sure, let's point out why everything you said was baseless:
-tethering recovery is overrated. it's even worse for a character that has to rely only on it, whereas at least link has a safe up-b to deal with. stick to the ledge, tethers can only jump when you hog it, and punish. basic stuff, I'm still sort of amazed people don't know this yet (or know how to edgeguard good recoveries in general)
-"really good against big characters" means nothing, because big bodies consist of about five to six characters, and this is a game with over forty, nearly reaching fifty. certainly a nice matchup quirk, but not much else
-the upb has a hilariously badly-placed hitbox, and actually has 20 frames of startup, if you get hit by it that is damn well your own fault
-dair does not spike, that's a flat-out lie, learn to mash out of meteors
and then the rest of your points are either belittling the intelligence of everyone involved, or hoping that maybe if you scream "she's invincible" for long enough nobody would pay attention to the incorrect things you've said.
you expect people to take you seriously, when you can't even bother to look up any of the data and research THAT'S IN THE BOARD YOU ORIGINALLY COMPLAINED IN which I found within a minute of looking. don't be surprised when nobody takes you seriously
-tethering recovery is overrated. it's even worse for a character that has to rely only on it, whereas at least link has a safe up-b to deal with. stick to the ledge, tethers can only jump when you hog it, and punish. basic stuff, I'm still sort of amazed people don't know this yet (or know how to edgeguard good recoveries in general)
-"really good against big characters" means nothing, because big bodies consist of about five to six characters, and this is a game with over forty, nearly reaching fifty. certainly a nice matchup quirk, but not much else
-the upb has a hilariously badly-placed hitbox, and actually has 20 frames of startup, if you get hit by it that is damn well your own fault
-dair does not spike, that's a flat-out lie, learn to mash out of meteors
and then the rest of your points are either belittling the intelligence of everyone involved, or hoping that maybe if you scream "she's invincible" for long enough nobody would pay attention to the incorrect things you've said.
you expect people to take you seriously, when you can't even bother to look up any of the data and research THAT'S IN THE BOARD YOU ORIGINALLY COMPLAINED IN which I found within a minute of looking. don't be surprised when nobody takes you seriously
Zx2963
Smash Journeyman
Squirtle counters Ivy from experience
Hungry Headcrab
Smash Ace
PsionicSabreur
Smash Journeyman
Since when did just hitting razor leaf cease to be an option? All of the big characters that might have trouble getting around it that I can think of can jab/ftilt/dash attack to purposefully clank with it and stay relatively safe, so long as the Ivy player stays back. If the Ivy player notices this and tries to approach behind the leaf, you can use an aerial or higher-damage attack to out-prioritize the leaf and stuff the approach with one attack.
It's not foolproof on it's own but it lets big characters be patient when they need to be.
It's not foolproof on it's own but it lets big characters be patient when they need to be.
Squirtle does alright against M2 as well. Niche counter character? maybe so
D
Deleted member
Guest
Ivysaur is one of those characters that certain players won't be happy with until she completely sucks. She was heavily nerfed and people still complain. It's ridiculous.
Hinichii.ez.™
insincere personality
- Joined
- Nov 2, 2013
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- NNID
- hinichii
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nerf till is not plant
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Sonic's another one. Ivy and Sonic cause obscene amounts of salt for some reason.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
It's been said a million times already but I think people salt about sonic because he forces you to play differently. A lot of his stuff doesn't have a ton of priority and gets straight up beat by moves if you just play a bit more patient. It's one of the few times I actually use mewtwo's ftilt because it outprioritizes and outranges his approaching down b
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
I guess I don't get that salty about a lot of common complaints because my character has the option to sword at everything. Razor Leaf? Sword it. Fireballs? Sword it. Recoveries? Sword it. Sonic? Sword it. Each sworing is different, takes good spacing and it's not always as effective as you want it to be, but you can sword most problems and they will go away.
Lack of ability to sword them is also why I have Falco laser salt and Diddy nanner salt.
But as a whole, if a problem comes along, sword it.
Lack of ability to sword them is also why I have Falco laser salt and Diddy nanner salt.
But as a whole, if a problem comes along, sword it.
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sneakytako
Smash Lord
You can't sword bananas? Don't they have a clankable hitbox?
Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
When they're tossed at you, not when they're on the ground.
crimsonfail
Smash Rookie
falcos upsmash can actually combo into nair or bair at lower percents on most chars (not jiggs)
I still think Ivy is really strong, but I wouldn't put her on the same level as Mewtwo / Fox / Lucas. She's got huge pressure and range, yes, but she's also a little more vulnerable to combos than most. She's basically a highly versatile zoner with some good power but the strategy of getting in on her and putting the hurt on still applies. It doesn't help that most of the good characters in the game are also very mobile and don't have much trouble getting in.
Pseudomaniac
Smash Journeyman
In my opinion, Ivy's current build is pretty much perfect. She's got a unique design and is very strong, but if you outplay her you'll win. I'd say that should be the aim for every character in the game.
She is a little bit obnoxious if you don't know how to play against zoning characters, but that's your fault, not the character's.
She is a little bit obnoxious if you don't know how to play against zoning characters, but that's your fault, not the character's.
D
Deleted member
Guest
to be fair, falco and diddy are both god. actually god. i love how characters based on DD and projectiles are always amazing. pit fox zss
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
@
trash?
for president
Theory crafting has to be put in its place. Don't take offense to people saying claims need to be backed up somehow. I mean I've beaten good ivys with dk, that doesn't mean I think dk wins the matchup but it certainly doesn't mean he loses it 80-20 or more. Same goes for dk vs zelda. I mean I play Zhime for ****s sake, it's really not that bad. I have a hard time accepting any matchup in this game is beyond 70-30 at most, if even that much at all.
trash?
for president Theory crafting has to be put in its place. Don't take offense to people saying claims need to be backed up somehow. I mean I've beaten good ivys with dk, that doesn't mean I think dk wins the matchup but it certainly doesn't mean he loses it 80-20 or more. Same goes for dk vs zelda. I mean I play Zhime for ****s sake, it's really not that bad. I have a hard time accepting any matchup in this game is beyond 70-30 at most, if even that much at all.
1FD
Smash Ace
If the Bowser in a melee-based mod can deal DECENTLY with the Shiek in the game
You know it's pretty balanced
Every character has enough stuff to make them work
Some more than others but whatever /GanonICsJiggsBowseretc
You know it's pretty balanced
Every character has enough stuff to make them work
Some more than others but whatever /GanonICsJiggsBowseretc
I think various low and bottom tiers probably have some 20-80s vs the very good characters. Puff vs Mewtwo certainly looks that way.
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
If you'd bothered to read my post, you'd notice that I in fact pointed out that you can do exactly this. Trouble is, this only occurs in situations where almost any other character would have been dead to edgeguarding.
Sigh.
Uthrow is a free setup with 50/50 DI to avoid instant death, and no punish possible on Ivy if she misses.
Ivy gets a second 50/50 if you're unfortunate enough to land on a platform.
Also, the hitbox is enormous, I'm not sure how you're managing to complain about it.
Because the distinction is ever relevant against someone with a fast, lagless bair that has two hitboxes bigger than most characters' hurtboxes. Regardless, my apologies/my bad. I wasn't actually aware.
I'm not belittling anyone's intelligence, only your intellectual integrity; particularly because you've seen fit to insult me for no reason.
Again, if you'd read the post, you'd note that I did no such thing.
Whatever, bring out the torches and pitchforks for the guy with the unpopular perspective. Everyone was telling me Mewtwo was garbage 6 months ago, too.
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Bleck
Smash Master
- Joined
- May 27, 2010
- Messages
- 3,133
I asked someone recently for a video of Mewtwo doing stuff that would make me believe it was overpowered and I got a video of some nerd teleporting into a ledge repeatedly for thirty seconds straight
Frost | Odds
Puddings: 1 /// Odds: 0
http://youtu.be/bpr6BzSpHjI?t=10m36s
4 seconds
edit:
http://youtu.be/z7re2Hw6hJ0?t=1m22s
18 seconds
notice how terrible Cory is
notice how free the combo is anyway
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Ahh the good ol days... it was the same for Pit, Lucas, and Diddy too.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
Ganon is broken you just don't know it yet!
Mera Mera
Smash Journeyman
Ivy's up B sweetspot actually covers directly above her to that diagonal that you see her whip stop at, making a pretty large right triangle. Ivy is definitely not OP, but this hitbox is indeed pretty damn good even with the high start up. As a Zard main I can attest to Ivy being good against big characters, but it's far from 100-0 lol. I'd say 60:40 or 55:45 in Ivy's favor.
AstraEDM
Smash Ace
The closest to an 80-20 i've seen in PM is probably mewtwo-jiggs. jiggs just gets outranged and killed at 90 with an upthrow
but jiggs needs changes in general to be viable again anyway, there are now characters (ivy, mewtwo, etc) that play her zoning and edgeguarding game better than she can, and that's all that she really had.
but jiggs needs changes in general to be viable again anyway, there are now characters (ivy, mewtwo, etc) that play her zoning and edgeguarding game better than she can, and that's all that she really had.