Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

I think it was this thread where I also said ness' recovery is bad, but my opinion's changed on that I feel

the strength of ness' recovery is entirely based on positioning. if he's near you, and below you, you can just hop on his grill and he doesn't really have much else he can do. if he has the high ground or is far enough away, though, it's really good, and if the ness knows how to sweetspot it well, it's incredibly difficult to counter or edgeguard. I kinda like that dynamic, certainly more exciting than lucas' tactic of "spam zair until you're too far away for that to be guaranteed"

 

[Deleted member]

Ness's recovery goes an insane distance and pretty much wins any trade ever. You need a disjoint or you cannot challenge it at all without regretting life. Ness players should just pk fire more and they'll win more.

 

[trash?]

PK fire is overrated as hecks tho, reflex already showed how to get out of it nearly every time like a year and a half ago

actually a lot of ness things were overrated, like how people at first would lose to awestin going for dair when edgeguarding all the time because none of them were used to mashing out of meteors

his dair is still alright off-stage but when M2K played him he treated it like that move alone made ness like S+++ tier

 

[Xcite]

Although, I agree with previous posts stating the OU adds uniqueness to Lucas, I must point out errors within this argument.

Hell. No.

And I'll tell you why. Lucas has very good KO moves with his smashes, yes, but the simple fact of the matter is that his Up Smash is super risky.

Long startup, tons of lag, and is hard to hit people with unless they're in the air already.

What you are saying is mostly true with the risk involved with up smash, but what Shairn mentioned before is correct, Lucas does have (nearly) guaranteed combos into his up smash, namely Dair and PK Freeze. It was never meant to be a move that should be used as often as lets say, Mario's Dsmash and thus should not be treated in the same manner. It has to be used for appropriate situations in order to be used effectively. Plus, Lucas has a fairly quick Fsmash that has decent KO potential with it. Not to mention the versatility within his moveset that makes upsmash, although being extremely beneficial, not completely necessary.

 

[| Kailex |]

You gotta remember that ness is invincible in the first few frames of PKT2

 

[shairn]

Ness's recovery goes an insane distance and pretty much wins any trade ever. You need a disjoint or you cannot challenge it at all without regretting life. Ness players should just pk fire more and they'll win more.

So don't challenge it, you know where he's going to be anyway so wait for him there. Challenging it is a bad idea.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'd rather them keep Lucas' up smash and Nerf his up throw. It can still kill but at around 20% higher across the board.

 

[Deleted member]

Lucas' OU charged smashes are insane, they deal so much damage by themselves. I don't know if the KB will be nerfed but I think the move most likely will receive changes.

 

[MonkUnit]

his Up Smash is super risky.

Long startup, tons of lag, and is hard to hit people with unless they're in the air already.

Both regular and OU U-Smash have huge disjoints that can hit people on the ground, especially using DACUS.

Spoiler: Regular vs OU U-Smash Hitboxes

Regular U-Smash
Sweetspot Hit

Late Hit

OU U-Smash
Sweetspot Hit

Late Hit

 

[Life]

Ness' recovery is almost entirely free against Pit provided he's well-practiced at gimping it. I'd imagine certain other projectile characters such as Mario and Link wouldn't have a hard time against it either.

 

[ELI-mination]

You mean recoveries aren't that crazy when you learn how to edge guard!?
Holy **** say it ain't so

 

[didds]

So all I got from the couple pages of this thread is that Fox should lose his lazers and instead get OU like Lucas which will give his Usmash the power to crush all foes.

Did I process this all correctly?

 

[Terotrous]

Does anyone else feel that PMBR should remove Lucas OU smash attacks?

I like the mechanic, but I do think it should have two tweaks:

- On successful hit, Lucas no longer retains charge.
- The power of the OU variants is reduced to somewhere between his current regular smash power and the current OU power. The power of the uncharged version is reduced to significantly less than it is now, so his smashes are not all that threatening when not charged.

I would say regular upsmash should kill around 150, and OU should kill around 110.

Upthrow should also lose about 20% worth of killing power.


Of course, he's not the only one who needs tweaks. Fox also needs to lose some kill power on USmash and Uair, and Mewtwo needs some kind of fix, likely more vulnerability on Teleport (likely longer startup and he becomes hittable a few frames earlier).

 

[Zx2963]

You're the kind of player that I like to needle once and then shine stall against for the full 8 minutes in friendlies.

Yes I actually do this btw

I'd find it more funny then annoying

I like the mechanic, but I do think it should have two tweaks:

- On successful hit, Lucas no longer retains charge.
- The power of the OU variants is reduced to somewhere between his current regular smash power and the current OU power. The power of the uncharged version is reduced to significantly less than it is now, so his smashes are not all that threatening when not charged.

I would say regular upsmash should kill around 150, and OU should kill around 110.

Upthrow should also lose about 20% worth of killing power.


Of course, he's not the only one who needs tweaks. Fox also needs to lose some kill power on USmash and Uair, and Mewtwo needs some kind of fix, likely more vulnerability on Teleport (likely longer startup and he becomes hittable a few frames earlier).

Mewtwo is fine and so is Fox. My only complaint for Mewtwo is to fix his side b, that thing us active WAY too long. PM though needs more spacie killers

 

[Deleted member]

You mean recoveries aren't that crazy when you learn how to edge guard!?
Holy **** say it ain't so

it depends on the match-up though. the recoveries in this game are definitely really good, and some characters edge guard well but some don't and that could definitely influence whether you think they're too good or not. as a sheik player, i don't think the recoveries are too bad, but i also undertstand where the samus and falcon players are coming from.

$0.02

 

[Mr.Pickle]

I like the mechanic, but I do think it should have two tweaks:

- On successful hit, Lucas no longer retains charge.
- The power of the OU variants is reduced to somewhere between his current regular smash power and the current OU power. The power of the uncharged version is reduced to significantly less than it is now, so his smashes are not all that threatening when not charged.

I would say regular upsmash should kill around 150, and OU should kill around 110.

Upthrow should also lose about 20% worth of killing power.


Of course, he's not the only one who needs tweaks. Fox also needs to lose some kill power on USmash and Uair, and Mewtwo needs some kind of fix, likely more vulnerability on Teleport (likely longer startup and he becomes hittable a few frames earlier).

I agree that he shouldn't retain a charge after a hit, since that mechanic doesn't really balance the whole risk reward ratio. Instead it just ops to give a lot of reward. The rest is up for debate.

 

[Terotrous]

I'd find it more funny then annoying

Mewtwo is fine and so is Fox. My only complaint for Mewtwo is to fix his side b, that thing us active WAY too long. PM though needs more spacie killers

Fox has by far the best tournament results of any character in PM and he appears to have strong matchups across the board, too. If any character needs a tweak, it's Fox.

Mewtwo is somewhat debatable but he's putting in all kinds of really strong results lately, as time goes on I think we'll start seeing him contend with Fox for the top spot.

I agree that he shouldn't retain a charge after a hit, since that mechanic doesn't really balance the whole risk reward ratio. Instead it just ops to give a lot of reward. The rest is up for debate.

The reason I think the uncharged smashes need to lose power is because there's a lot of situations where the uncharged one gets it done just as well, thus making the charge somewhat redundant. If we want Lucas's gameplay to revolve around finding ways to build charge and land those charge attacks, we need to make sure the difference between charge and no charge is significant.

 

[didds]

Mewtwo is fine and so is Fox. My only complaint for Mewtwo is to fix his side b, that thing us active WAY too long. PM though needs more spacie killers

Your only M2 complaint is that side b is active too long? If you have no complaints about the rest of the character, but that sticks out to you I just don't know what to think.

This is not to say I want M2 nerfed, I've just never seen that being the prime issue with someone before.

 

[Zx2963]

Fox has by far the best tournament results of any character in PM and he appears to have strong matchups across the board, too. If any character needs a tweak, it's Fox.

Mewtwo is somewhat debatable but he's putting in all kinds of really strong results lately, as time goes on I think we'll start seeing him contend with Fox for the top spot.



The reason I think the uncharged smashes need to lose power is because there's a lot of situations where the uncharged one gets it done just as well, thus making the charge somewhat redundant. If we want Lucas's gameplay to revolve around finding ways to build charge and land those charge attacks, we need to make sure the difference between charge and no charge is significant.

Fox has been always getting high tourney results, if anything, only the landing lag for lasers should be tweaked (running and gunning is a little too good despite the laser tweak). Mewtwo is fine, I mean multiple people have beaten good Mewtwos. Lucas Up Smash I agree needs to be riskier

Your only M2 complaint is that side b is active too long? If you have no complaints about the rest of the character, but that sticks out to you I just don't know what to think.

This is not to say I want M2 nerfed, I've just never seen that being the prime issue with someone before.

It isn't used much even to reflect projectiles (most people power shield), but it's out too long. I was playing a Samus who shot a charged shot, I completely missed the timing by a second and a half, yet it was reflected to our surprise.

 

[Deleted member]

i'd rather fix lucas's dair before upsmash since dair basically = upsmash. that said, i dont think lucas needs fixed, but dair is still def more questionable than a strong move in neutral on a character that already has lots of strong moves in neutral.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

Fox has been always getting high tourney results, if anything, only the landing lag for lasers should be tweaked (running and gunning is a little too good despite the laser tweak).

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this at all, max distance lasers doing only half a percent is a huge nerf to the gun. It makes it borderline useless, well at least in fox's case. It makes it to where you have no business respecting it ever, so giving it landing lag would completely destroy the move.

@Umbreon - Idk with dacus being involved, there are more ways to confirm into upsmash, and I'm sure he has some grab setups that go into upsmash, so I feel its still an issue. Though to be fair, idk enough about dair, how easy is it to land it?

 

[Zx2963]

I'm sorry but I don't agree with this at all, max distance lasers doing only half a percent is a huge nerf to the gun. It makes it borderline useless, well at least in fox's case. It makes it to where you have no business respecting it ever, so giving it landing lag would completely destroy the move.

@Umbreon - Idk with dacus being involved, there are more ways to confirm into upsmash, and I'm sure he has some grab setups that go into upsmash, so I feel its still an issue. Though to be fair, idk enough about dair, how easy is it to land it?

Well in this case increase damage but increase landing lag. My perception of Fox is more get-in-your-face then Falco (in PM anyways). Landing would discourage laser camping more then anything

 

[Terotrous]

i'd rather fix lucas's dair before upsmash since dair basically = upsmash. that said, i dont think lucas needs fixed, but dair is still def more questionable than a strong move in neutral on a character that already has lots of strong moves in neutral.

It's possible to SDI out of Dair in some situations. Also, making USmash weaker makes Dair -> USmash less deadly.

Lucas also has other confirms into USmash. Magnet / Wavedash Backwards / USmash is also possible, and there are a bunch of dacus setups too.

 

[Mr.Pickle]

That would decrease fox's versatility which is unwarranted, especially since camping isn't really an issue with him with the damage decrease, which I kinda feel was a little overboard with the half percent.

 

[didds]

As long as the lasers keep being obnoxious, they'll force approaches and serve their purpose.

 

[Mr.Random]

Fox also needs to lose some kill power on USmash and Uair

How about we don't nerf Fox and make other characters better.

 

[MLGF]

Real talk, just making it so that throw to up smash on Lucas isn't a guarantee would make a lot of people less bitter about it.

By god if Lucas is horrible without it anyhow.

 

[trash?]

How about we don't nerf Fox and make other characters better.

but every time characters become as good as fox they get immediately nerfed from complaints

see also: sonic, ike, ivysaur, what will inevitably be mewtwo

why spacies are somehow supposed to be special and untouchable when every other new tech in other characters get tossed out immediately is beyond me

 

[CyberZixx]

That is what annoys me most about spacies. How so many people will complain to high heavens when any other character has a very strong tool but Fox is always like "nah, he's fine". Because of fox I do not have any issue with Diddy, Mewtwo, Lucas or whatever other character people are complaining about. I'd rather have more silly stuff than just on fox.

 

[Mr.Random]

but every time characters become as good as fox they get immediately nerfed from complaints

see also: sonic, ike, ivysaur, what will inevitably be mewtwo

why spacies are somehow supposed to be special and untouchable when every other new tech in other characters get tossed out immediately is beyond me

I definitely understand what you mean Canon. In this game though, characters have absurd punishes on spacies. 0 to deaths and easy edgeguards. I understand spacies have an almost perfect neutral game but we aren't perfect so we'll make a mistake and get punished hard. I feel once people get better at edge guarding and punishing then complaints will lower. Although I'll be honest, I'm somewhat defensive right now. Hearing that both of your mains might get nerfed is never fun.

 

[mimgrim]

How is Fox not good at laser camping in PM? Because of reduced damage at a distance? It isn't as good as it was in Melee but it is still a good and viable defense tactic for Foxes to use and forces opponents to approach regardless. It is a bit on the ridiculous side that a character with such an amazing neutral game, punish game, and offense also has an amazing defensive game to boot. Fox is still a fast faller and when he gets punished he will get punished hard but he is able to give the opponent a run for their money to try and accomplish that espically when compared to some like Roy who has similar traits in terms of offense, but still not as good as Fox, but not nearly as good of a defensive game.

Fox doesn't need a lot changed to him in the long run, imo. I think he just needs his defensive options toned down some.

 

[Terotrous]

How about we don't nerf Fox and make other characters better.

You can't have a game full of characters who are as powerful as Fox and yet remain distinct from each other. Fox is so strong because he does everything well. He's super fast, he's super mobile, he can force you to approach, he can get in on anyone, he hits like a truck, etc. His only partial weakness is that he's susceptible to some combos (though he escapes others) and his recovery isn't the best, but overall he's ludicrously versatile and strong.

You simply can't have a game of 40 characters who all meet that description. A fundamental aspect of the design of many characters is that they have weaknesses, for example Captain Falcon is very fast but he has to go in even against solid defensive characters since that's all he does. We could give him a projectile and buff his neutral game and basically make him Fox #2, but this would lose what makes him a unique character. Having a character who simply does everything well is just bad character design. If you're super fast, super mobile, and super versatile, you shouldn't hit very hard. Every other fighting game understands this (and in fact, so do Brawl and Smash 4, where Fox is still just as fast but hits much less hard), they just got it wrong in Melee and PM insists upon preserving that mistake, to the detriment of the metagame.

 

[Mr.Random]

Every character needs crazy tools to make them top tier or high tier.
Fox: Crazy combos, kill power, neutral game, projectile.
Falco: Crazy combos, insane neutral, kill power, projectile.
Lucas: Crazy combos, excellent recovery, insane kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Pit: Crazy combos, excellent recovery, kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Mario: Crazy combos, great recovery, kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Mewtwo: Great neutral, insane combos, excellent recovery, projectile.
Now lets compare this to Ganon.
Ganon: Bad neutral game, bad recovery, ok combos, good kill power.

 

[Rᴏb]

I'm positive that the only nerf Fox is going to see in the future is a weakened upsmash. I'd love for more nerfs/changes but Fox has to be the best for some reason (bcuz melee).

 

[didds]

edit: nvm, ignore, misread

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

You're not allowed to compare to ganon; trash tier

 

[Terotrous]

Every character needs crazy tools to make them top tier or high tier.
Fox: Crazy combos, kill power, neutral game, projectile.
Falco: Crazy combos, insane neutral, kill power, projectile.
Lucas: Crazy combos, excellent recovery, insane kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Pit: Crazy combos, excellent recovery, kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Mario: Crazy combos, great recovery, kill power, great neutral, projectile.
Mewtwo: Great neutral, insane combos, excellent recovery, projectile.
Now lets compare this to Ganon.
Ganon: Bad neutral game, bad recovery, ok combos, good kill power.

Yes and that's clearly a problem. As per the above, the only way to make Ganon as good as the others is to make him the same as they are, since almost all of those characters do everything well there's no room for Ganon to be better at them in some areas and worse in others.

It's quite possible that all of those characters may need some nerfs. I think the ideal level of power is probably around where Diddy is. He's got cool stuff, but his game has a built-in weakness because his bananas can be used against him as well, and as a result he's not as completely dominating as some of those others can be.

 

[Mr.Random]

You're not allowed to compare to ganon; trash tier

Poor Ganon

Yes and that's clearly a problem. As per the above, the only way to make Ganon as good as the others is to make him the same as they are, since almost all of those characters do everything well there's no room for Ganon to be better at them in some areas and worse in others.

It's quite possible that all of those characters may need some nerfs. I think the ideal level of power is probably around where Diddy is. He's got cool stuff, but you can use his tricks against him, so he remains fair.

So how would you nerf said characters?

 

[Terotrous]

Poor Ganon

So how would you nerf said characters?

I already suggested a couple. Mewtwo's teleport needs to be less safe. He might also need some of his tail hitboxes looked at. For Lucas, I think Offense Up is a good mechanic, but he shouldn't get to keep the charge after hitting with it, and when he doesn't have charge, he should be weak. This forces you to try to find ways to create space so you can get charge, or limit your combos until you know the charge will send the opponent way offstage.

I'm not totally convinced yet that Falco and Pit are OP, they definitely seem a bit weaker than Mewtwo, Fox, and Lucas. Without seeing lots of matches where they dominate everyone it's hard to decide what to change. For Mario, Fireball getting a few more frames of recovery is pretty obvious.

Incidentally, it's okay for Mario to be a well-balanced character, since that's kind of the point of him. He just shouldn't be awesome in every area, merely "good" in every area, so those who are more specialized shine in their respective areas.

Ganon also definitely needs buffs. Just nerfing the top tiers down to a reasonable level of power isn't enough, we also need the bad characters to be brought up at least to around where the middle of the mid tier is now. Fixing Ganon will take a bit more creativity. I did make suggestions earlier in the thread (my idea was to make aerial Wizard's Foot travel horizontally, like the ground version, but be limited to once per airtime and no longer recover your jump), but I have no idea just how much that would help without testing it out.

 

[Mr.Random]

Hearing Mario nerfs is scaring the **** out of me. The thing that makes him good in this game is that he is above average in every area and not just average. They buffed two moves in between 2.5 to 2.6 and now people are throwing fits about him. Annoying. I've always wanted a game where Mario was good so I feel that if they just make him "average" again I'm moving on to another character just like they intend you to do in the other games. I tried him in Smash 4, he still sucks (hard to land kill moves, down b useless, still below average range) so PM is the only game he is good in besides 64. Mario feels so well designed in this game. I love using him so much. I will admit I HATE seeing scrubby players use him and do well because of spamming fireballs. MVD admitted to me that he only got into top 32 in CEO by spamming them. ****ing stupid.