Tier List Speculation

[trash?]

that CG infinite is not as good as it looks, mind you. it's not like wobbling or brawl infinites that can effectively be done off of any consistent grab, it requires you to grab them in one specific area, otherwise nana's just throwing them somewhere else entirely

 

[Deleted member]

..................

 

[Mera Mera]

that CG infinite is not as good as it looks, mind you. it's not like wobbling or brawl infinites that can effectively be done off of any consistent grab, it requires you to grab them in one specific area, otherwise nana's just throwing them somewhere else entirely

Yeah I agree. I actually edited my post to add that immediately after posting

Edit: I will say though I've never played someone who's done this to me. My one concern is them being able to combo into a grab to make it easier to pull off. So while it doesn't seem unreasonable atm, I'm not convinced it can't be if that makes sense.

 

[Bleck]

Why should the character whose identity is based around having two separate entities play like a grappler? If anything, the ICs should be given more tools based around desyncs and double attacks (think; Rosalina).

Also, regarding Jigglypuff; I agree with the notion that she's basically impossible to buff while Rest is how it is. But, then again, I'm of the opinion that Jigglypuff's entire design is just generally bad and should be rebooted into something marginally different, so I'm not even gonna get into that because neruguheg Melee bluh

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Why should the character whose identity is based around having two separate entities play like a grappler? If anything, the ICs should be given more tools based around desyncs and double attacks (think; Rosalina).

Look man, you're two games late.

 

[Bleck]

"Look man, Melee."

 

[trash?]

those grapples are an integral part of their desynchs, though. even before anyone figured out wobbling, getting damage and kills through grabs happened through desynchs

 

[Deleted member]

I'm glad people are finally starting to agree with me about Jigglypuff. It's about time.

Jigglypuff has the potential to be an interesting character with a much more useful and diverse moveset, but that was passed over in favor of retaining one of the most conceptually stupid moves to ever exist - Rest.

As for Kirbycides, the only thing that bothers me is that despite the name, it isn't always a suicidal tactic. Kirby can survive. It should be a risky all or nothing maneuver. If you attempt a Kirbycide, Kirby will always get KO'ed. If you do it improperly, your opponent might survive while Kirby has no choice but to die. Take away his jumps.

 

[GP&B]

Just ahead of shine :kappa:

 

[Bleck]

those grapples are an integral part of their desynchs, though. even before anyone figured out wobbling, getting damage and kills through grabs happened through desynchs

That's true, but it sounds to me - and maybe I'm misreading - that people are saying that their grabs and chainthrows should be better, rather than their ability to desync. Making the ICs have hard chaingrabs gives them an identity as 'chaingrabs, the character', but I'm questioning whether or not that would be better suited to another character entirely, so as to possibly focus on the aspect of the ICs that make them interesting in the first place.

You could make anybody in the game have a moveset that revolves around their grab game, so why waste it on the ICs, where they could have a playstyle completely different than anybody else?

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

They don't even have cg no more.

 

[thatoneguy1]

Im fine with the winner being the one that did the suicide move

as much as i agree with that its kinda hard to call it if somebody jumps last second off screen.

 

[| Kailex |]

I dont really care much because you cant get out of flame choke.

 

[Terotrous]

This isn't entirely accurate. Wobbling is indeed out, but Nana will throw towards the nearest ledge if she's decently close to a ledge. She throws up when she's not very close to any ledge (in Melee she also throw towards the nearest ledge, but when farther from a ledge she would throw in a random direction instead of always up).

There is a (presumably inescapable? anyone know much about this?) infinite chain grab for ice climbers in Project M, and it uses this fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPJgfNWJq-I

Intriguing, I didn't know that Nana would sometimes throw towards the edge. That actually makes the chain grab possible, if she always threw upwards it would never work.

Not really all that practical though.

 

[FlamingForce]

That's true, but it sounds to me - and maybe I'm misreading - that people are saying that their grabs and chainthrows should be better, rather than their ability to desync. Making the ICs have hard chaingrabs gives them an identity as 'chaingrabs, the character', but I'm questioning whether or not that would be better suited to another character entirely, so as to possibly focus on the aspect of the ICs that make them interesting in the first place.

You could make anybody in the game have a moveset that revolves around their grab game, so why waste it on the ICs, where they could have a playstyle completely different than anybody else?

Their cgs suck now anyway.
And you're overestimating the effectiveness of desyncs if you think that's all they need to get by, you're still talking about 2 mediocre / very bad characters trying to cover each other up within the limited bubble of Nana's input range (Go anywhere outside that and you risk losing Nana.) Their grab game is what gets them by because you can't rely on icies winning the neutral game against most characters, which is why they need their powerful grab shenanigans to get the most out of the few solid punishes they can get out of their opponent.

Their "Identity" (I'm honestly not too sure what to make of that argument lol) doesn't matter.

I'm curious as to what you mean by them being able to "Desync better" instead of the chaingrabs being better.

 

[Rizner]

Haven't kept up with this and only read like 5 posts but I've climbers have infinite chain grabs still. On I believe all of the cast.

 

[Bleck]

Their cgs suck now anyway.

That's not really the point.

And you're overestimating the effectiveness of desyncs if you think that's all they need to get by

It's not what I think they need to 'get by', it's what I think they need to be interesting characters.

you're still talking about 2 mediocre / very bad characters trying to cover each other up within the limited bubble of Nana's input range (Go anywhere outside that and you risk losing Nana.)

Yes, this is what I believe needs changing.

Their grab game is what gets them by because you can't rely on icies winning the neutral game against most characters, which is why they need their powerful grab shenanigans to get the most out of the few solid punishes they can get out of their opponent.

Yes, this is the problem.

Their "Identity" (I'm honestly not too sure what to make of that argument lol) doesn't matter.

Why would you thinking something is irrelevant matter if you also readily admit to not understanding what it is?

I'm curious as to what you mean by them being able to "Desync better" instead of the chaingrabs being better.

The Ice Climbers right now are hindered by desyncing being something that's extremely difficult to do consistently (I'd go so far as to say that, in Melee at least, playing the Ice Climbers well is probably the tech-skill-iest thing in the game) and being not all that great - the issue is that the payoff isn't worth the effort that it requires.

Like I said, Rosalina in Smash 4 is basically how the Ice Climbers should have worked in the first place (which is also why I don't believe they'll be returning in Smash 4, to be honest) - a character that functions well enough as a single character, but also has tools that involve another disjointed character-like entity being able to attack, giving the character in general a playstyle that's generally unique compared to the rest of the cast. As it stands right now, the Ice Climbers have significant weaknesses to make up for the fact that they're just constantly two characters (as you noted, their neutral game is terrible) and their only real notable strength (as desyncs are too unreliable, as I've said) is their grab game (which could very well belong to anybody, as I've said).

To be honest, though, I'm limited in what I can think of to alleviate their issues, 'cause I'm not entirely sure what the limitations of the engine and the coders are. Something to do with replacing one of their specials with a move that lets you force the second IC to move away from you to attack, or maybe even letting the player switch control between the two on the fly? I'm not too sure, honestly.

I just think "buff their grabs" is not the healthiest path to take, is all.

 

[Soft Serve]

IC's are in a pretty bad spot, they have cool punishes but they still need perfect set-ups to be effective, and they are still easy for most of the cast to seperate.

Its sad, the concept of a grappling based-puppet character is amazing. I'd love to play one in a traditional fighter.

 

[FlamingForce]

It's not what I think they need to 'get by', it's what I think they need to be interesting characters.

Yeah thats what I was referring to with the whole identity thing, they need to be good, not necessarily interesting.

And Rosalina is far from similar, from what we've seen she summons her partner at will, out of thin air. This is a skill every icies player dreams about but as it stands but would probably be a little too good overall.. In any case makes them difficult to compare to one another.
And most of the important Melee desyncs aren't that terribly difficult to do, there are definitely some really hard ones out there as well but they're mostly situational.
How exactly can the only 2-man character in the game possess a grab game that anyone else could have, Nana is too unreliable for comboing someone because anything outside of her small control bubble means her AI kicks in and she can't really extend combos that well while still inside it (Without some sorta intricate grab game coming into play)

In order to be able to use Nana for safe poking and disjointedness the way Rosalina does it the character would need a significant overhaul to make it so that the risk of sending out Nana on her own is nowhere near as great as it is atm or that losing her doesn't have as much of an impact.

I kinda like the idea of being able to switch between them though.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

That's exactly the same and worse, have you forgotten you can jump OoS?


Giving her a storable rollout charge, with a max movement speed and strength greater than it currently has but a longer charge time, is a better solution. It makes it dangerous for opponents to run away from her and camp or give her space to charge it. And if she does fully charge it, she has an early, fast, long reaching kill move good for tech chasing, ending combos, and punishing lag at a distance.

And then we give her an ftilt

Hmm,that makes sense. I wasn't thinking that she would go immediately to shield from Rollout, I was thinking it would work more like Sonic where there's a lil skid stop that occurs or a slightly delayed fake-out stop to the initial charge.

 

[1FD]

RNG puff and ic quote from superancient times in this thread

Give Jiggs increased range on F-Tilt or D-Tilt to cover herself better while grounded, and the ability to cancel Pound into jumps (On-Hit only maybe) or a follow-up Pound (double-slap?) This would give her more flexibility on a high priority option that can actually lead into something worth the attempt, without changing her design, game-plan, and archetype.



Ice Climbers could use some normalizing. Unlike how normalizing can often not benefit a character, and almost hinder them (as it would trying to normalize Ganon from his archetype, and as it has somewhat to Samus due to hers, etc), the IC's will forever be unique and extreme simply by nature of having 2 of them. Some improvements to their actual attributes (range/KB/whatever) would greatly make them better, both in balance and design.

Play to the benefits of having 2 in neutral rather than 2 in punishment game, (which they have been catered to properly so far in PM, but could use more of), and the character will continue to be improved upon as a whole. Any attention given to things like chain/grab combos becoming a center-piece to the character is a waste of efforts, as it's very short-sighted. For the ICs to be a great character worth having in Smash, only the concepts of play applicable by having 2 characters under an individuals control at once throughout the maneuverability game, is a factor. Either that, or they will forever be a mini-game-based character of killing AI and avoiding the lead, being ever easier to separate as the game progresses, just as Melee becomes. Might as well be an Event Match in single player if they aren't normalized with their inevitable internal polarities as a character(s).

I'll only comment on these rows given I think they're the worst bunch (or likely a bunch of the worst) in the game right now.​

Or just make 3 ics
I would like that too because WHY NOT

 

[Zx2963]

IC's are not bad, they absolutely do not need a third, They can do fine against mid to low tiers

 

[Phan7om]

Lets just make it possible to have however many ICs you want on the field, 1 to 100, thats the proper way to buff them!

 

[shairn]

IC's are not bad, they absolutely do not need a third, They can do fine against mid to low tiers

They're kinda bad if they only do "fine" against mid to low tiers.

 

[Deleted member]

making ice climbers become 3 people instead of 2?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

 

[mimgrim]

IC's are not bad, they absolutely do not need a third, They can do fine against mid to low tiers

You do not know what "bad" is then.

 

[Mera Mera]

Intriguing, I didn't know that Nana would sometimes throw towards the edge. That actually makes the chain grab possible, if she always threw upwards it would never work.

Not really all that practical though.

It's not sometimes, it's always when they are by the ledge. It's super practical because you can rely on it. Not sure that the infinite is practical or not though if that's what you mean. I'd guess it is, but it might not be terribly common.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I wonder if it would be terribly difficult to Rosalina-ify the Ice Climbers. Make it so that they are both independently controlled by the player simultaneously. I don't know that would work exactly but I think it would make the character better overall.

 

[1FD]

True there should be 4 not 3 WHAT WAS I THINKING

 

[trash?]

next version of project m to merge captain olimar and ice climbers together; can pluck up to one hundred nanas (or popos, depending on the costume you chose) and throw them at your enemies

 

[THK]

So Fenrir's opinion of PM: an apologist's attitude for the PMBR. (tldr warning)

I was a bit late coming into PM, but as I understand it, the original goal for the project (balance-wise) was to use Melee Fox as the central character and balance everybody around him.
Now here's the central problem... Melee Fox had a nearly perfect neutral game, with both a perfect shield pressure tool, excellent edgeguarding, and nearly perfect offensive and defensive tools.

Now it's impossible to give every character fox's speed, options, and shine... So how do you make the chars as good without giving them the same advantages?

The answer imo is really the same answer that the PMBR seems to have come up with.. Increase every char's options and tools nearly to (or past the) point of stupid. I often refer to it as "the PMBR set out to make every char as dumb as Fox (note I didn't say as good)", and I honestly believe that.

So here we are at 3.02, and I really have to say bravo to the PMBR. The game that they have come up with is hilarious fun, and more balanced than any previous smash game, with most of the chars being viable. I'm actually very impressed with what the team has been able to do. Of course there are (and will always be) some balance issues, but it's pretty incredible as is. I feel that the team has very nearly nailed the original goal, and I appreciate the effort for that.

Now that said, like I said before, most chars have some really stupidly good options, because they kind of have to to meet the original goal of the project.

The problem is that people really don't like stupidly good options. In the time I've been paying attention to it, I've heard that no fewer than half the cast are OP and "need nerfs". Heck, go count how many char boards have a "this char seems OP" thread. I hope everybody sees the irony here. To me, this is an issue with the community, rather than the developers.

So where do we go from here? Imo, either nearly every char in the game (including Fox) should be nerfed, OR we as a community need to accept and embrace each char's stupid options, and honestly ask whether something is beyond the goal of the project before complaining about it.

I hate this term, but are things like Mario's fireballs, Link's rang, Zelda's priority, etc etc etc really more "toxic" for the metagame than Fox's shine, usmash, and combos were for Melee's? I'd argue vehemently that they are not. Yes there are things in the game that could use some minor tweaks (and there probably always will be), but the base we have isn't broken. It's actually pretty amazing.

The tldr version: when you set out to make everybody as good as Fox, there's going to be some really dumb/good stuff in the game. Let's either embrace that as a community and stop the endless character complaining, or do a heel turn on the original goal of the project and nerf nearly everybody, Fox included.

I've very much been in the camp (if it exists) that one shouldn't nerf what's good (unless it's absolutely unstoppable with no counters what so ever or is very limited in counters; in which case, nerf it), just buff what isn't good. What's wrong with everyone being good? The "problem" (and I use the quotations heavily) is that you have to learn matchups and have secondaries to deal with problem matches for your main.

So yeah characters will end up with very good options/tools that many will think are too strong when they're not. I don't see a problem with that.

 

[FlamingForce]

I wonder if it would be terribly difficult to Rosalina-ify the Ice Climbers. Make it so that they are both independently controlled by the player simultaneously. I don't know that would work exactly but I think it would make the character better overall.

If anything is gonna lead to some of the craziest cgs in smash history its gonna be that.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

If anything is gonna lead to some of the craziest cgs in smash history its gonna be that.

Yeah if they did that, they'd have to make Nana always up throw or not be able to grab at all like Luma.

 

[Nevermind]

ITT: People suggesting changes for characters they've never used.

 

[Terotrous]

I honestly still think my original suggestion for fixing the ICs would work, which is that they should just deal more damage and knockback across the board. The fundamental problem with them is that they have the maneuverability and speed of an Ike, but the range, power, and defense of a Kirby. They have to work very hard to get their hits, but they aren't really rewarded for them very much. A really simple fix (particularly if we have decided that chain grabs are an undesirable mechanic) is just to reward them more for hitting you. Right now, a foward smash from both ICs does like 26%. It should be 40% if both hit, and the knockback should be comparable to a Marth tipper FSmash.

This also restores their grab game to being threatening. If down throw hits for 9% and causes you to eat a charged (single) FSmash for ~28%, you now really don't want to get grabbed.

 

[jtm94]

So you are saying the are both maneuverable AND strong?

Do not make ICs stronger. Too many moves are already too strong. I do agree with damage output though so they are rewarded, but not that AND stronger KB, that would be exponentially better in a bad way.

 

[WIZRD.Pro]

So what I think the IC needs seems quite simple:

Higher damage output but the same knockback as always, this makes them good at comboing for high damage through desynch.

Remove near-ledge chaingrabs and instead force their chain grabs to work 3-5 times utilizing a throw by Popo and an attack by Nana. An example is the previously mentioned D-Throw > Squall Hammer > D-Throw > Blizzard.

Add more desynch techs. Examples are:

• Ice Block into Blizzard: By hitting an ice block with a blizzard, it hits away. Hitting it's bottom sends it upwards, hitting it's top sends it downwards, and hitting it's side speeds it up in that direction. This will allow for more complex on-stage gimps and a more dynamic neutral game.
• Spin into Ice Block: If a Neutral-B (forgot the name) hits an iceblock, it sends needle-like shards in the direction the ice block was in. Three are shot out, one upwards, one downwards, and one straight forwards. Of course, these are projectile copies of Shiek's Needles.

 

[Terotrous]

So you are saying the are both maneuverable AND strong?

Uhh, no, I'm saying they're both slow and weak. They have the bad points of both Ike and Kirby, not the good points.

Anyway, just a buff to damage might be enough for low or maybe low mid tier, but I don't see them being good without a buff to knockback as well. With no knockback buffs they won't usually be able to get kills until ~130%, which is bad for a low defense character who has trouble getting hits.

 

[steelguttey]

...have you seen how fast they go by just wavedashing? they are NOT slow. their attacks are kind of slow, but they arent. and they still have chaingrabs and setups. theyre pretty cool, just need fixing like olimar

 

[Terotrous]

...have you seen how fast they go by just wavedashing? they are NOT slow. their attacks are kind of slow, but they arent. and they still have chaingrabs and setups. theyre pretty cool, just need fixing like olimar

Yeah, their raw movement speed is fine, the problem is that their attacks have comparable startup time to a heavyweight, without the same amount of power behind them.

Anyway, before their CGs and Wobbling were discovered, they were considered bottom tier in Melee, for exactly the same reasons I posted (weak, slow, bad defense). If you take those away without giving anything back, they go back to bottom tier. That's just common sense.