Tier List Speculation

[muleet]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssbm/
Eventhubs seems to be a good site to calculate tier lists and matchup advantages. Project M doesn't seem to have its page though. Do you think there is a chance for them to add a page for it if the PM community asks them?

 

[trash?]

Actually, Brawl's competitive scene wasn't as large as melee because less people played it, and that's not because it's less fun to watch. It was less fun to play. Before people were actively streaming melee, people were still showing up to melee tournaments because they wanted to.

except the numbers before streaming are miniscule compared to now, where EVO is nearly hitting four digits, and we were barely getting over 300 before, not to mention brawl's numbers were higher than melee's for years at one point.

this is a ridiculous claim that relies on the incredibly wrong assumption that everyone knows what competitive smash is about and what it can do. being spectator-friendly means everyone can watch and get into it, meaning they can get their friends to watch and get into it. you're not just being inept with this statement, you're being outright harmful, because you just tried to sweep all the work people have done through streaming and creating content, your progductos and GIMRs and chibos, in a single paragraph, because "I kind of like this mechanic and that's all I care about SO THERE"

 

[MrTea]

http://www.eventhubs.com/tiers/ssbm/
Eventhubs seems to be a good site to calculate tier lists and matchup advantages. Project M doesn't seem to have its page though. Do you think there is a chance for them to add a page for it if the PM community asks them?

good luck with that one

 

[Loli Bacon]

that's why I said ONE of the main reasons, not THE main reason. Trust me when I say that if brawl was more enjoyable to watch you'd see a lot more people playing it. This is because "fun to play" is subjective, not a fact. Many people prefer brawl and some may not even know they do because it's so BORING to watch. Even before streams, people most likely showed up to those tournaments not only to play the game they love but to watch the high level play from the others. A game being viewer friendly is pretty important to it's competitive scene. I'm not saying you're wrong, not at all, you are very much correct, but viewers are just more important than you may think.

You say fun to play is subjective, yet then proceed to say that Brawl is boring to watch as if it were a fact. This is also subjective and doesn't constitute an argument.

except the numbers before streaming are miniscule compared to now, where EVO is nearly hitting four digits, and we were barely getting over 300 before, not to mention brawl's numbers were higher than melee's for years at one point.

this is a ridiculous claim that relies on the incredibly wrong assumption that everyone knows what competitive smash is about and what it can do. being spectator-friendly means everyone can watch and get into it, meaning they can get their friends to watch and get into it. you're not just being inept with this statement, you're being outright harmful, because you just tried to sweep all the work people have done through streaming and creating content, your progductos and GIMRs and chibos, in a single paragraph, because "I kind of like this mechanic and that's all I care about SO THERE"

I'm not saying that everyone knows about competitive Smash but if they honestly cared about it they'd look into it themselves. I'm actually curious as to what you have to say about this counter argument:

Why do we care if more people play the game? What does larger numbers bring to the scene that is worth balancing the game around how enjoyable it is to spectate the game?

The arguments I've seen for this so far have been:
1) A bigger scene is just a better scene overall (this makes 0 sense)
2) More people = more competition (so quantity over quality, huh? I mean, there will always be casuals and 90% of players this doesn't apply to)
3) High prize pots and community recognition from developers. (Prize pots don't apply to 90% of smash players. Why do we want recognition from developers? "Senpai noticed me!"?)

And when do these things balance out the cons of balancing to cater to casual play and for spectator interest?

 

[trash?]

"why would we ever want more people to enjoy this scene instead of specifically pandering to MY needs IT MAKES NO SENSE"

you're an incredibly selfish human being and I would greatly appreciate you never talking again

 

[| Kailex |]

Oh I know, how about we talk about tier lists instead?

 

[Weeabro]

I think his point is we should be making a game that is fun to play over a game that is fun to watch so as to bring in more players.

If a game is fun to play then people will play it if they find it interesting. If a game is fun to watch but not super fun to play until after a huge learning curve, you won't get much of a scene after the game stops being popular on streams, (see: every anime fighter ever) whereas a game that is just super enjoyable to play will have a dedicated scene for a while.

 

[Loli Bacon]

"why would we ever want more people to enjoy this scene instead of specifically pandering to MY needs IT MAKES NO SENSE"

you're an incredibly selfish human being and I would greatly appreciate you never talking again

Good argument, nice edit to attempt to belittle my argument.

On the topic of tiers, where would we say Sheik is placed realistically? I'm thinking about high mid?

 

[trash?]

I am stating exactly what you're inferring. you dislike that people want changes you don't want, because it doesn't specifically suit to you in particular, and instead would be for a greater scene/viewing audience as a whole. that is the entire content of your argument, you don't deserve a reasonable response

 

[Bleck]

Why do we care if more people play the game? What does larger numbers bring to the scene that is worth balancing the game around how enjoyable it is to spectate the game?

"why would we ever want more people to enjoy this scene instead of specifically pandering to MY needs IT MAKES NO SENSE"

yeah basically

 

[Ripple]

I'd like to talk about inui's FB posts on characters.

basically saying sheik/roy/charizard are all terrible and deserve buffs

 

[Bleck]

Maybe you should link to the posts.

 

[Professor Pro]

Yes sir Mr. Pro. But if Snake is bad, how are you beating Armada, reverse 3-0ing M2K, etc?

Not trying to say you're bad (you're a god in my book) but Snake's general character design definitely helped out. You were the first to beat Armada's Pit at that. People consider Pit to be OP. I think Snake is definitely top tier. Lose to low tiers fine. But no one uses low tiers in tourney because they get wrecked by other top and high tiers.

I didn't say Snake was bad, I said he isn't 'Top Tier'
Snake definitely isn't bad, but to me 'Top Tier' implies top 5-9 in the game, an area which Snake definitely isn't in.

And I don't see how someone who loses to 30/40% of the cast could still be Top Tier.

 

[Loli Bacon]

I am stating exactly what you're inferring. you dislike that people want changes you don't want, because it doesn't specifically suit to you in particular, and instead would be for a greater scene/viewing audience as a whole. that is the entire content of your argument, you don't deserve a reasonable response

You're arguing in circles. What does having a larger scene grant us that is worth catering to them? People who truly enjoy the game won't quit simply because "Kirbycide isn't fun to play against or fun to watch". It didn't stop Melee players. Do you think Sheik chain throws are fun to play against or watch? What about Fox/Falco?

I'm not arguing for myself, I'm trying to find out the rationale behind this mindset because it honestly doesn't make sense to me.

On topic: I actually haven't seen Snake do much. General consensus is he's....?

 

[Ripple]

I don't know how to link to specific posts on FB. maybe this works?

https://www.facebook.com/lucas.i.de...total_comments=168&notif_t=feed_comment_reply

 

[Weeabro]

Screenshot it and post the screenshot to imgur or something

 

[trash?]

It didn't stop Melee players.

yes it did. in fact, this was why melee struggled for the first few years, because shiek CGing dittos were a constant sight, people assumed that was the future. it took your kens and azens to prove otherwise, and by that point the game was nearly two years old.

What about Fox/Falco?

I'm sure eli in particular would tell you that yes, people don't play melee because of the popularity of obnoxious top tiers. although, hey, why not ask M2K's opinion on spacies?

a fun-to-play metagame with depth doesn't equal a fun-to-watch metagame, but a fun-to-watch metagame with depth often does make a fun-to-play one. if you really want to go with the argument of "what's in it for me", then there's no reason to not reverse it; if this change won't apply to the wants of a specific niche, especially when applying to a "useless move" that's a gimmick at best, then what does it matter to you?

 

[Bleck]

You're arguing in circles.

bro do you even know what a circle is

 

[Loli Bacon]

yes it did. in fact, this was why melee struggled for the first few years, because shiek CGing dittos were a constant sight, people assumed that was the future. it took your kens and azens to prove otherwise, and by that point the game was nearly two years old.


I'm sure eli in particular would tell you that yes, people don't play melee because of the popularity of obnoxious top tiers. although, hey, why not ask M2K's opinion on spacies?

a fun-to-play metagame with depth doesn't equal a fun-to-watch metagame, but a fun-to-watch metagame with depth often does make a fun-to-play one. if you really want to go with the argument of "what's in it for me", then there's no reason to not reverse it; if this change won't apply to the wants of a specific niche, especially when applying to a "useless move" that's a gimmick at best, then what does it matter to you?

The reason why I'm curious is because this philosophy of nerfing things that are deemed boring to watch or un-fun to play against creates an ever-changing game where the time put into a character can be deemed wasted based on changes to that character. I'm pretty sure I've seen quite a few players in this thread alone who have stated they hate this aspect of the game and I feel this is more of a problem rather than removing something that may be difficult to deal with. Removing it before exploring your options creates an ever-changing metagame that is stale at the exact same time since instead of learning to deal with things that may seem "cheap", we cry "boring", "overpowered" etc...

You should read David Sirlin's book if you haven't already.

 

[trash?]

sirlin's "playing to win" philosophy immediately hits a brick wall upon even entering the way smash as a whole is played. we have bans for stages, bans on items, and in the strange world of MDVA's weeklies, bans on the number of times one can hold onto the ledge. coincidentally, that region has that rule because of the kirby player that made this argument happen to begin with, funny that.

balancing for fun is not a bad thing to do. SFxT is "balanced" for strength, and even balanced to remove "cheapness" (its one "comeback mechanic" requires heavy amounts of skill to even remotely handle well), but it is still a game ripe with timeouts, and people don't like find timeouts to be fun to watch... so you see few people playing it. this doesn't even get to the fact that "fun" and "not cheap" are entirely separate entities; MvC2 is the cheapest game of all time, and it's still a blast for people to play, so much that it lasted for nearly a decade.

this is the age of streams, folks, people will learn of competitive play through that more than any other source online. this is how many start to know what project m even is, and this is where you can either play nice and get bigger than you ever imagined, or... well, take a look at how brawl's community looks like now, after they rejected anything that could help them be more spectator-friendly.

 

[Zx2963]

You guys are going way off topic :\

@ Loli Bacon : General consensus is high mid tier
In my opinion though Shiek is mid tier because of everyone's buffed recovery

 

[Loli Bacon]

You guys are going way off topic :\

@ Loli Bacon : General consensus is high mid tier
In my opinion though Shiek is mid tier because of everyone's buffed recovery

Not only that, but her inability to recover well makes her easily gimped. Imagine if her Chain could tether again.

 

[ELI-mination]

Wait why was my name mentioned @ trash? ?

 

[trash?]

arguments about watchability and horrible cheese, mostly. I just kind of named you because I knew your dislike for a lot of melee over PM is... well-known? I have no nice way of saying "you really don't like the game that much" I don't think

it was a fun conversation but prolly not one for a tier list thread

 

[mimgrim]

Let's talk bout Bowser and how bad he is. I actually think he is worse the Ganon and replaces him as part of the bottom 3, Ganon still pretty bad though lol. The poor guy just has so many bad things about him and not enough good things going on for him.

But goddamn is he fun as hell to play. Especially in doubles.

 

[Bleck]

Making a character big, slow and immobile just isn't gonna end well for them. Armor frames alone isn't going to alleviate any of his actual issues.

 

[Soft Serve]

Let's talk bout Bowser and how bad he is. I actually think he is worse the Ganon and replaces him as part of the bottom 3, Ganon still pretty bad though lol. The poor guy just has so many bad things about him and not enough good things going on for him.

But goddamn is he fun as hell to play.

Bowser is super read based. He has tons of tools like armor and disjoints to power through things. I don't think he's worse than Ganon at all. the best bowser right now is probably HR Jaime. is 2-0 vs Axe if that puts it into perspective. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IL3k2NL9fnU for video reference

I don't think Bowser is great, for a lot of reasons, but hes definitely not a Ganon imo.

 

[mimgrim]

Armor and disjoints only help so much. He's slower the Ganon, less mobile then Ganon, and while Ganon is taller Bowser is fatter (the latter is worse imo). Ganon also has a far better punish game, he probably has a better neutral game as well but that isn't saying much anyways lol. Ganon still on the bad side, but he has more things going for him.

Though maybe that vid will put things in a different prespective for me, but I am unable to watch it currently.

 

[shairn]

Contrary to Ganon, Bowser can tank through things Ganon struggles with with the various armors his moves have, has good OOS options and can cover recovery options pretty well while having just as good if not better killing potential.

To be honest I think upB and downB cancel make him more mobile than Ganon.

 

[trash?]

bowser has the biggest shield, which means he has the biggest powershield

that doesn't sound like a big deal but kirk won a major basically because his powershield game was on point, so

 

[mimgrim]

Well then.

Lesson learned here is that I never know what I am talking about most of the time. Like usual.

He might not be Ganon bad, but he's still on the much lower end of the scale lol.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Jiggilypuff is easily the worst character in PM in my opinion. Sure she still has the wall of pain but that's hardly noteworthy when these two exist and when is viable. She still has rests but if anything that's just holding. The PMBR can't buff anything for fear of rest combos. I think she should receive the Samus treatment and receive changed specials accessed via taunt. In the alternate set rest would be severely nerfed but in exchange her other specials would receive huge buffs. Rollout can be jump canceled into other attacks and sing is now a projectile musical note that briefly puts opponents to sleep. Her side b could now be some kind of Fairy type move. I figure this way can finally get some buffs and her old self is still in tact.

 

[Deleted member]

I'll agree jigglypuff is ass. She was anti-meta in melee but now she has no mobility, disjoints (besides bair but.. really?), or projectiles. She is just... bad.

 

[shairn]

Jiggilypuff is easily the worst character in PM in my opinion. Sure she still has the wall of pain but that's hardly noteworthy when these two exist and when is viable. She still has rests but if anything that's just holding. The PMBR can't buff anything for fear of rest combos. I think she should receive the Samus treatment and receive changed specials accessed via taunt. In the alternate set rest would be severely nerfed but in exchange her other specials would receive huge buffs. Rollout can be jump canceled into other attacks and sing is now a projectile musical note that briefly puts opponents to sleep. Her side b could now be some kind of Fairy type move. I figure this way can finally get some buffs and her old self is still in tact.

If you're going to give her a strictly better moveset that she can only access by taunting, might as well change her whole moveset right off the bat.

 

[Osennecho]

At least map sing to taunt and give a fairy wind up-b. If it has a reasonable hitbox and could act as an out of shield option + she could use her jumps after it, it could potentially be the only buff she needs. Or at least would be enough of a buff to implement and see it's effect on the meta before deciding on anything else imo. Doesn't seem game breaking or risk making OP combo's into rest either. Granted allowing it to possibly combo into rest at certain percents+characters might not hurt, but there's no real reason to bother with that aspect either.
Well that's just my opinion anyways.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Holy **** stop suggesting rollout be jump cancelable, not everything needs that
It's a super forced inorganic way to add maneuverability onto a character when there are better options for allowing characters to threaten at a distance than making everybody fast

 

[shairn]

I'd like to see Jiggs do rollout jc grab dthrow into rest

Someone make it happen pls

 

[DrinkingFood]

Go play brawl minus then, they probably definitely have stupid **** like that

 

[trash?]

a JC rollout still doesn't address the fact that rollout is rollout and is kind of a gimmick that is meaningless to the rest of jigglypuff's style

if we're going this way, I'd much rather push her towards continuing to be something that snaps metagames in half. look at what's considered the strongest thing among top tiers in PM, and find a way to add a counter of that to jiggs. ofc that's an incredibly simplified way of saying what could be done but you get the idea

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Holy **** stop suggesting rollout be jump cancelable, not everything needs that
It's a super forced inorganic way to add maneuverability onto a character when there are better options for allowing characters to threaten at a distance than making everybody fast

It'd be nice if they made it cancelable via shielding, ALA Sonic's Spin Dash. The way I figure it, Puff can turn around, why not come to a complete stop?