Tier List Speculation

[Pwnz0rz Man]

y'all kind of missed bleck's point I think. I don't think swallow is actually good (or even alright, for that matter), but it's obnoxious, and obnoxious design can, in fact, be something addressed when balancing something, even if it's not viable at high-level

Yeah, but that's not what he said. I'd be fine if they reduced the amount of time Kirby could hold victims inside of him or make it mashing out a lil faster, so long as they were willing to take the same consideration with Dedede. Neither moves are overpowered, but they've got that perfect level of annoyance that suicide inhales might have some extra value if only it was slightly more difficult to drag people to death.

 

[Ripple]

they should not nerf DDD's inhale AT ALL. his is already a super terrible version of kirby's.

no power ups.
can't move in the air while inhaling like kirby
insane cooldown compared to kirby's
and characters can even punish DDD after he spits them out

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

they should not nerf DDD's inhale AT ALL. his is already a super terrible version of kirby's.

no power ups.
insane cooldown compared to kirby's
and characters can even punish DDD after he spits them out

I'm specifically refering to suiciding as a result of inhale. Dedede's isn't that much worse than Kirby's, I'd say since his at least has a suction to it, where Kirby's is more akin to Rick's from Kirby's Dream Land 3.

 

[Phan7om]

Imagine if players were playing against a Yoshi main and he would only camp the ledge and force egg-lay (neutral-B) and people didnt know how to mash out/hold in when they're in the egg, and then complained that it forced the player to play in a way they dont want to... im sure we would all lol. And if amsa/vectorman/good yoshis, didnt exist im sure thats what most people would think Yoshi can only be played like... not realizing that the move isnt that good

@ Ripple I agree, D3's inhale needs buffs, except he can move around while doing it

 

[trash?]

Swallow specifically? If so D3, Bowser, Yoshi, Ganon and Wario would need looking at also. And yes, even tho inhale is pretty bad in this game (and when I say bad i mean the payoff, getting it is rather simple), I guess if its working against you(not you specifically) it should be nerfed. :/

the funny part is, you're saying this as if those characters having horrible neutralb moves isn't a problem, barring yoshi, which functions basically exactly like how people would want to change kirby

I like having useful moves at a high level. that horrid warlock punch is the opposite of that, regardless of the payoff. if you feel like scrambling that in your mind to mean "I WANT NERFS", be my guest

 

[Phan7om]

the funny part is, you're saying this as if those characters having horrible neutralb moves isn't a problem, barring yoshi, which functions basically exactly like how people would want to change kirby

I like having useful moves at a high level. that horrid warlock punch is the opposite of that, regardless of the payoff. if you feel like scrambling that in your mind to mean "I WANT NERFS", be my guest

I wasnt implying that those neutral b moves were bad, nor did I mean all of their neutarl Bs. I was specifically listing command grabs, Bowsers Side-B and Ganon's Side-B along with everyone else on that list can grab in the air. Probably should've specified that, I thought it was obvious, why would I change the subject to Bowsers fire breath and Ganon's WP lol? Thats all I meant. Command grabs are good. But yeah, I totally misread your post before this, my bad. xD

 

[thatoneguy1]

idk if this has been discussed before but is there anything you guys think needs buffs/nerfs?

 

[Empyrean]

Did you even read the last few pages?

 

[mimgrim]

idk if this has been discussed before but is there anything you guys think needs buffs/nerfs?

I think Roy should have no lag on his Uspecial and should be heavier (like Falcon weight).......

But I don't like voicing my opinions on what kinds of buffs I think character might need that often.

 

[Pseudomaniac]

I've never played against a Kirby before but just out of curiosity what prevents you from dash dancing and wavedashing to bait out inhale on a ledge and then punishing it? Especially with characters with fast projectiles like Falco and Pit.

 

[Bleck]

I've never played against a Kirby before but just out of curiosity what prevents you from dash dancing and wavedashing to bait out inhale on a ledge and then punishing it? Especially with characters with fast projectiles like Falco and Pit.

what if you don't have a projectile

 

[Plum]

If you can't punish an Inhale without a projectile you are REALLY REALLY REALLY doing something wrong.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

If you can't punish an Inhale without a projectile you are REALLY REALLY REALLY doing something wrong.

If I'm mistaken, let me know, but I was under the impression that pretty much everything out prioritized Kirby's inhale. Most characters with limbs too short to deal with that, have projectiles. Most characters without projectiles have attacks that have some length to them or have swords so disjoints. Usually when I have seen people get inhaled by chudat, it was because they rushed in at a terrible time.

 

[Bleck]

If you can't punish an Inhale without a projectile you are REALLY REALLY REALLY doing something wrong.

if you can't post in a tier list thread without implying other players are bad then you are REALLY REALLY REALLY doing something wrong

 

[thatoneguy1]

Did you even read the last few pages?

i read random posts which is why i said i didnt know

 

[Pseudomaniac]

So if inhale can be punished, why is it such a big deal, balance-wise?

 

[Phan7om]

Inhale is so bad. I find that strange that inhale is being discussed and not things like land cancelled Dash Attack, long ass dthrow cgs, his crouch, how good aerial hammer is, or reverse final cutter ledge cancel spikes.

So if inhale can be punished, why is it such a big deal, balance-wise?

Exactly!!! lol its not that big a deal

 

[trash?]

I think I fully understand what the rest of the PMBR means when they say they refuse to take this thread into consideration. y'all give me a headache from all the repeating I need to do

balance changes don't just have to mean "this is too good/bad", something can be booty buttcheeks but overcentralizes regardless, and if you want a fun character, those things should be acknowledged when making changes

I swear to god if this circles back into a space animal discussion

 

[Bleck]

I'd also like to repeat that something doesn't need to be over/underpowered to be something that needs changing. I'd like to repeat it several times, each time ever so slightly more exasperated than the last.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

We should buff inhale so it goes through intangability. Then it would be good enough to nerf it back down to what it is. #FullCircle

 

[Plum]

How does it even overcentralize Kirby's gameplay if it's only something you can really do against players worse than yourself?

 

[Bleck]

How do your posts even matter if they're just about arbitrary skill judgments?

 

[Seagull Joe]

deserves NO buff to his b move. F that.

 

[Deleted member]

nerf inhale, leave the rest

oh and his d throw can 0 to death some characters, miiiiight wanna fix that

 

[Seagull Joe]

nerf inhale, leave the rest

oh and his d throw can 0 to death some characters, miiiiight wanna fix that

He can CG himself to death. It's honestly hilarious.

 

[steelguttey]

guys **** everyone else buff olimar

 

[| Kailex |]

Who needs buffs? Nerf everyone.

 

[FirestormNeos]

hyrule tier confirmed.

 

[Terotrous]

Roy is too low. He should at least be in the middle of mid tier.

Roy's hard to place because there's literally only one Roy worth caring about and that's Sethlon. As such, the amount of good Roy footage out there just isn't nearly as much as with other characters. Sethlon has made him seem decent on occasion (much as Vist has done with Luigi), but they haven't been winning tournaments with them or anything else that forces you to take notice. If a character usually looks bad but looks okay when played by a master, they're probably low tier.

Characters don't need good tournament results to show if they are viable. Just having a recording of the character DOING something is enough. It could be friendlies or, to a lesser degree, lab work showing that the character is capable of performing.

I do consider a character's toolset as well, but at some point someone has to prove that the tech is useful in a real match. If the execution barrier is so high that no one can do it consistently or the situation needed to pull it off is too impractical, it just won't really translate into results.

Also, don't forget that most good characters also have crazy lab tech that few people can properly use yet. Look at all the nutty stuff Fox and Falco can do with waveshines and multishines, for example.

Donkey Kong is amazing, talk about combos. He's almost like Mario if Mario had the range of a sword, just not quite as good and easier to gimp/combo.

The problem with Donkey Kong is that while he has amazing combos on pretty much everyone, everyone else also has amazing combos on him (even if they don't have great combos in general), so his offense doesn't really shine as much as it could.

Sonic seems to have risen on everyone's tier list confirming that people weigh tournaments fresh in their mind too heavily.

It's not just that Wizzrobe placed well at CEO, but he showed a level of Sonic rushdown that had never been seen before. That being said, I'm not willing to jump on the "Sonic is top tier" bandwagon just yet, Fox clearly had answers to Sonic's approach and I think most other characters with good hitboxes do too. Sonic has great pressure but his hitboxes (save FTilt) aren't really that amazing.

TBH, I just haven't seen any Link player not rely on the boomerang like crazy. Kinda makes me think his meta is built around it.
If I'm wrong and someone has evidence to prove it, I'll gladly revoke this statement.

It is, but it's better than his previous meta which was based around losing.

I don't think Kirby is good, but I do think that Chu's swallowcide ledgecamp nonsense is asinine. Maybe if that wasn't such a powerful, binary tool, the PMBR could afford to make Kirby actually good.

I totally agree with this. The buff to Kirby's aerial maneuverability after inhaling was completely stupid, that buff solely exists to allow him to ledge camp with swallow more easily.

 

[9bit]

Buff MK. No projectile? Come on!

For real though these PMBR members keep hinting that this next update is gonna be incredible... I'm salivating

 

[jtm94]

Though it is fun being chain grabbed by Ganondorf, I don't think it's very good for the game whether he's bad or not, and guaranteed KO moves on anyone that isn't Puff/Samus/Zelda higher than 80%. Mario's downthrow is also ridiculous, being able to chaingrab over 50% of the cast when he already shines in every other area. Kirby's downthrow shouldn't exist. Tech chases even on floaties and not only chain grabs, but guaranteed fsmash above 70%, or like 100% for other characters.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Ganon's chaingrab, he needs it. Also you can't complain with this grab range. One could argue about Mario's and Kirby's cg but I mean cg or juggle, does it make such a difference? OK, cgs are rather boring to watch, but they don't happen that often either. Also, you still need to react to DI.

 

[Loli Bacon]

Buff MK. No projectile? Come on!

For real though these PMBR members keep hinting that this next update is gonna be incredible... I'm salivating

So I played a bit of the next build for PM today. You guys are in for a surprise. I can't tell you individual changes but I'll just say that the ledge game is changing.

 

[| Kailex |]

Loli knows all, everyone stop what youre doing.

 

[Gust14]

So I played a bit of the next build for PM today. You guys are in for a surprise. I can't tell you individual changes but I'll just say that the ledge game is changing.

MELEE TETHERS CONFIRMED!

lol no, but in all seriousness can you at least tell us, does it feels (even) more balanced? are physics more like melee?

 

[MLGF]

I haven't seen any player but Chu succeed with Kirby swallows.
And Chu is a really smart player. Until this becomes an extremely exploitable thing, I'm against nerfing Kirbter's sucking.

 

[Professor Pro]

The top four PM players in the world are M2K, Wizzrobe, Armada, and Professor Pro. Snake has the results to say he's top tier.

Snake isn't top tier. Having a losing MU spread of like 40% of the cast aren't the traits of a top tier character.

Many characters would be higher on a tier list then Snake despite them not having the tourney results to back it up. Which is mostly due to the players themselves who play them not being good enough imo

 

[Loli Bacon]

MELEE TETHERS CONFIRMED!

lol no, but in all seriousness can you at least tell us, does it feels (even) more balanced? are physics more like melee?

Physics on the ledge are farther than Melee. Melee purists gonna be so mad.

 

[Phan7om]

Physics on the ledge are farther than Melee. Melee purists gonna be so mad.

Brawl or Smash 4 ledge mechanics confirmed.

 

[Loli Bacon]

Brawl or Smash 4 ledge mechanics confirmed.

Neither? Invulnerability is changing.

To stay on topic: I think Zelda is in a good place atm, just needs more reliable combos/damage. I don't actually think Fox/Falco are top tier, rather, that since Melee players are bringing in their extensive knowledge from 10+ years of melee, those characters are more fleshed out than everyone else in the game. I honestly think Link is the best character at the moment.