Tier List Speculation

[steelguttey]

****. i always forget about her.

but yea bottom tier lol

 

[jtm94]

Luigi is poop, but he's poop that can be played incredibly well and achieve average placings.

The thing with Pikachu is that he is incredibly terrible at the base. You just pick him up and try to use him and you're like wow this character is terrible, but then you have the people who are amazing with them that achieve high placings. He's low ceiling high floor just like Lucario imo.

Peach isn't bad. She's never been bad. And Donkey Kong is amazing, talk about combos. He's almost like Mario if Mario had the range of a sword, just not quite as good and easier to gimp/combo.

 

[Phan7om]

lol, tier lists be like "this character placed high at a tournament, he must be top/high tier" and "oh, i never seen this character played well, so he must suck."

 

[Zx2963]

Luigi is poop, but he's poop that can be played incredibly well and achieve average placings.

The thing with Pikachu is that he is incredibly terrible at the base. You just pick him up and try to use him and you're like wow this character is terrible, but then you have the people who are amazing with them that achieve high placings. He's low ceiling high floor just like Lucario imo.

Peach isn't bad. She's never been bad. And Donkey Kong is amazing, talk about combos. He's almost like Mario if Mario had the range of a sword, just not quite as good and easier to gimp/combo.

I picked up Pikachu for the lols in melee, and he's pretty darn good. I mean all his moves are poop except for the nairplane, but his juggles and racking up damage make him like a mini-fox. Thunder and QA buffs as well as Brawl mechanics just make him so much better. L

 

[Ace76]

Sonic seems to have risen on everyone's tier list confirming that people weigh tournaments fresh in their mind too heavily.

 

[Zx2963]

Sonic seems to have risen on everyone's tier list confirming that people weigh tournaments fresh in their mind too heavily.

Maybe because Sonic is really good

 

[Zerudahime]

Zelda is thoughtless.
Zelda is bad.
Zelda is broken.
Zelda is cheap.
Ally destroyed me, games werent even close.

Good thing all of these things wont be relevant in a short period of time.
So i mean really, we can keep talking about things that wont matter in a few months if thats what keeps this game alive.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Zelda is thoughtless.
Zelda is bad.
Zelda is broken.
Zelda is cheap.
Ally destroyed me, games werent even close.

Good thing all of these things wont be relevant in a short period of time.
So i mean really, we can keep talking about things that wont matter in a few months if thats what keeps this game alive.

PM 4.0 confirmed for a few months?

 

[Zerudahime]

PM 4.0 confirmed for a few months?

no. Zhime confirmed for not bothering to play the game once i finish doing real life things.

 

[DrinkingFood]

Yeah playing games is such a bother ya'know
Especially PM, how dare PMBR demand we play this game when we could better spend our time on real life things like earning Nobel Prizes and/or Olympic gold medals

 

[Kink-Link5]

So we can agree then. Zelda is a ninny-ninny dumb-dumb poopy head and we're getting 1.0 fireballs soon?

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Sonic seems to have risen on everyone's tier list confirming that people weigh tournaments fresh in their mind too heavily.

Nah, my homie 2Fast was my main training partner, I always knew Sonic was good

 

[Zx2963]

Zelda is thoughtless.
Zelda is bad.
Zelda is broken.
Zelda is cheap.
Ally destroyed me, games werent even close.

Good thing all of these things wont be relevant in a short period of time.
So i mean really, we can keep talking about things that wont matter in a few months if thats what keeps this game alive.

I always knew this was true, welp at least no more people saying "Zelda top tier"

 

[Ace76]

Maybe because Sonic is really good

I didn't imply sonic wasn't good. I implied that until wizzrobes placing sonic wasn't very high on any tier lists. After his result is forgotten sonics place will fall again. Which means a more reliable method should be developed instead of people basing tiers off tournament results fresh in their mind.

 

[Strong Badam]

Axe and Anther placed really well at SKTAR. Esam also has a pretty good Pika secondary.

Neither of these players attended SKTAR. You might be thinking of Super SWEET.

 

[jtm94]

People weigh tournaments in general too high. The fact is the game is moderately more balanced than Melee and bad characters or characters who take more skill than others can win decisively enough to make them seem top tier.

Sonic was slightly below par but annoying before the last buff, and he got a lot. One of my main training partners mains Sonic and with him being decent enough to still beat me before I knew it was too much at that point. I couldn't have even imagined how good homing attack, side b, and uair would become. I still don't like Wizzrobe because he dropped the character after he got the buffs saying he was still trash and quit PM entirely. Now it seems he figured out he has enough of his amazing stuff so he can win tournaments again, and because of that he plays again. If I didn't like what happened to my character I would just play another, I mean we have tons of options now.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

Thing is, Wizzy was out there winning. None of us are out there winning, at least not to the same extent as he was.

 

[NickRiddle]

People weigh tournaments in general too high. The fact is the game is moderately more balanced than Melee and bad characters or characters who take more skill than others can win decisively enough to make them seem top tier.

Sonic was slightly below par but annoying before the last buff, and he got a lot. One of my main training partners mains Sonic and with him being decent enough to still beat me before I knew it was too much at that point. I couldn't have even imagined how good homing attack, side b, and uair would become. I still don't like Wizzrobe because he dropped the character after he got the buffs saying he was still trash and quit PM entirely. Now it seems he figured out he has enough of his amazing stuff so he can win tournaments again, and because of that he plays again. If I didn't like what happened to my character I would just play another, I mean we have tons of options now.

He also started focusing more on Melee, so his not playing PM was probably a result of that. Once he saw free money eixsted again, why wouldn't he go for it?
If they nerf Link/Bowser I will stop playing because they're who I want to play.

 

[Saproling]

Fantastic movement with QAC, great edge guarding potential, really early kills (up smash thunder kills at like 50% on most of the cast), small hurt boxes, an ok projectile, good combo potential, and an unpunishable recovery. Now do you understand?

Ill give you good movement small hurtbox and good combo potential though its nothing special at the same time.Also every recovery is punishable ill give you his recover is damn solid but it can be stopped though difficult and punishable.
Although im an Ivy main so I got it easy edge guarding.

 

[Spiffykins]

He also started focusing more on Melee, so his not playing PM was probably a result of that. Once he saw free money eixsted again, why wouldn't he go for it?
If they nerf Link/Bowser I will stop playing because they're who I want to play.

they'll probably change Link's boomerang again but to be honest rang's been completely different in almost every major update so that's whatever

Bowser won't get nerfed

 

[DrinkingFood]

moderately more balanced than Melee

Lol
You are either overrating Melee by a tremendous amount or underrating PM by the same amount

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Ill give you good movement small hurtbox and good combo potential though its nothing special at the same time.Also every recovery is punishable ill give you his recover is damn solid but it can be stopped though difficult and punishable.
Although im an Ivy main so I got it easy edge guarding.

Of course no recovery is completely free but Pika is very to difficult to punish similar to Mewtwo.

Lol
You are either overrating Melee by a tremendous amount or underrating PM by the same amount

Probably both lol

 

[Zx2963]

He also started focusing more on Melee, so his not playing PM was probably a result of that. Once he saw free money eixsted again, why wouldn't he go for it?
If they nerf Link/Bowser I will stop playing because they're who I want to play.

It's almost confirmed their nerfing the boomerang I believe.

Of course no recovery is completely free but Pika is very to difficult to punish similar to Mewtwo.

Um, you obviously haven't been knee'd in the face enough as Pikachu

 

[NickRiddle]

Boomerang easy to avoid by high-tiered players, better nerf it.

 

[Zx2963]

Boomerang easy to avoid by high-tiered players, better nerf it.

I think it's more it's ridiculous combo ability

 

[MLGF]

TBH, I just haven't seen any Link player not rely on the boomerang like crazy. Kinda makes me think his meta is built around it.
If I'm wrong and someone has evidence to prove it, I'll gladly revoke this statement.

 

[NickRiddle]

TBH, I just haven't seen any Falco player not rely on lasers like crazy. Kinda makes me think his meta is built around it.
If I'm wrong and someone has evidence to prove it, I'll gladly revoke this statement.

Better nerf lasers.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

Boomerang easy to avoid by high-tiered players, better nerf it.

If I heard right, its just a slight increase in cool down at close range, which shouldn't hurt too bad, as long as combo ability is not taken away. I believe Mario fireballs are facing similar treatment

 

[MLGF]

TBH, I just haven't seen any Falco player not rely on lasers like crazy. Kinda makes me think his meta is built around it.
If I'm wrong and someone has evidence to prove it, I'll gladly revoke this statement.

Better nerf lasers.

When you put it like that... Touche my friend.

 

[NickRiddle]

I'm just saying.
When I played KDJ/Chu they didn't really have... any... trouble with boomerang.

 

[RebazTalei]

People weigh tournaments in general too high. The fact is the game is moderately more balanced than Melee and bad characters or characters who take more skill than others can win decisively enough to make them seem top tier.

Sonic was slightly below par but annoying before the last buff, and he got a lot. One of my main training partners mains Sonic and with him being decent enough to still beat me before I knew it was too much at that point. I couldn't have even imagined how good homing attack, side b, and uair would become. I still don't like Wizzrobe because he dropped the character after he got the buffs saying he was still trash and quit PM entirely. Now it seems he figured out he has enough of his amazing stuff so he can win tournaments again, and because of that he plays again. If I didn't like what happened to my character I would just play another, I mean we have tons of options now.

fgt, get your facts straight.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

When you played a Kirby that can crouch to a near nonexistent hit box, he didn't have any problems with it (chu probably isnt a good example of someone who can work around boomerang, more impressive seeing bowser or dk do it.) I personally don't have a problem with the boomerang myself.
Only thing i would suggest is that since it starts combos in pm at close range, and there are even double boomerang combos, nerf max damage to twelve. This wouldn't change him or his combo game, and doesn't change the list of moves it clanks with. I am afraid they may be touching the grounded up b spike if I heard right, and would hate to see him over nerfed when he isn't an issue, you just played well.

 

[Ace76]

I do not believe links boomerang is overpowered

 

[Deleted member]

Boomerang easy to avoid by high-tiered players, better nerf it.

gotta agree with flareon on the sarcasm here. link's neutral game is obviously based around projectile camping, or projectile lead-ins for approaching, and to nerf boomerang would ruin both of the two main aspects of his gameplay. it's also totally unnecessary. link's boomerang is fine as is, and if you're getting combo'd off of it that hard (aka the close hit), i got bad news for you about the other characters.

boomerang is good and a focal aspect to link's gameplay. and frankly, that's perfect. no nerf imo

edit: oracle mentioned that in 90% of cases, SH back > boomerang is still a good play. while this kinda of play can be centralizing, so far we haven't really seen that happen. it's also a really easy way for link to lose precious stage position, something he is generally better off using projectiles to gain rather than lose. just wanted to address both side of the argument, since oracle is generally spot on in his evaluations.

 

[CORY]

the stupidest thing about boomerang is that it's safe on shield, at point blank.

like, positive on block, safe on shield, at point blank.

this is pretty much entirely because it does 14%, so with shield stun calculations using damage to determine shield stun time, it gets kinda dumb.

so, lower boomerang's damage (or at least lower it at point blank) and leave everything else the same, and that fixes a lot of the stupidity, then people can just learn to di hits properly and find out if it's really that busted or not.

 

[Deleted member]

you could also just not run up and block it. this game has tons of movement and defense options, and it bypasses one of them, and that's a bad thing?

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

TBH, I just haven't seen any Falco player not rely on lasers like crazy. Kinda makes me think his meta is built around it.
If I'm wrong and someone has evidence to prove it, I'll gladly revoke this statement.

Better nerf lasers.

I ... I don't ... disagree with this ... at all ...

 

[Deleted member]

I ... I don't ... disagree with this ... at all ...

it's true but it's also somewhat of a straw man argument. tbh we should probably be looking at boomerang in a vacuum. falco lasers are definitely not the baseline comparison for ideal balance lol

 

[Fenrir VII]

So Fenrir's opinion of PM: an apologist's attitude for the PMBR. (tldr warning)

I was a bit late coming into PM, but as I understand it, the original goal for the project (balance-wise) was to use Melee Fox as the central character and balance everybody around him.
Now here's the central problem... Melee Fox had a nearly perfect neutral game, with both a perfect shield pressure tool, excellent edgeguarding, and nearly perfect offensive and defensive tools.

Now it's impossible to give every character fox's speed, options, and shine... So how do you make the chars as good without giving them the same advantages?

The answer imo is really the same answer that the PMBR seems to have come up with.. Increase every char's options and tools nearly to (or past the) point of stupid. I often refer to it as "the PMBR set out to make every char as dumb as Fox (note I didn't say as good)", and I honestly believe that.

So here we are at 3.02, and I really have to say bravo to the PMBR. The game that they have come up with is hilarious fun, and more balanced than any previous smash game, with most of the chars being viable. I'm actually very impressed with what the team has been able to do. Of course there are (and will always be) some balance issues, but it's pretty incredible as is. I feel that the team has very nearly nailed the original goal, and I appreciate the effort for that.

Now that said, like I said before, most chars have some really stupidly good options, because they kind of have to to meet the original goal of the project.

The problem is that people really don't like stupidly good options. In the time I've been paying attention to it, I've heard that no fewer than half the cast are OP and "need nerfs". Heck, go count how many char boards have a "this char seems OP" thread. I hope everybody sees the irony here. To me, this is an issue with the community, rather than the developers.

So where do we go from here? Imo, either nearly every char in the game (including Fox) should be nerfed, OR we as a community need to accept and embrace each char's stupid options, and honestly ask whether something is beyond the goal of the project before complaining about it.

I hate this term, but are things like Mario's fireballs, Link's rang, Zelda's priority, etc etc etc really more "toxic" for the metagame than Fox's shine, usmash, and combos were for Melee's? I'd argue vehemently that they are not. Yes there are things in the game that could use some minor tweaks (and there probably always will be), but the base we have isn't broken. It's actually pretty amazing.

The tldr version: when you set out to make everybody as good as Fox, there's going to be some really dumb/good stuff in the game. Let's either embrace that as a community and stop the endless character complaining, or do a heel turn on the original goal of the project and nerf nearly everybody, Fox included.

 

[mimgrim]

I thought it was Melee Marth that was supposed to be used as the central character.......