Tier List Speculation

[Juushichi]

Putting Zelda in high tier makes me really wonder if people are watching the same thing as me.

 

[shairn]

Diddy's projectile game isn't actually that good, you can catch and instant throw both his projectiles right back at him for the same advantages. Which isn't to say Diddy isn't really good in other aspects.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Someone had to say it. Came here to post the exact thing...
By no means is Zelda bad, but she loses to Mario, Link, MK, Diddy. At best for her they are even.

Mario is absolutely amazing. Chain grabs on over 50% of the cast, all of his moves flow into each other, dtilt leads into fair on every character at moderate %s. His projectile only makes all of these already amazing things even better, but by no means is fireball his only good tool. He can go SO DEEP with bair for free. His bair has to be one of the best in the game, far better than Kirby's. HIs recovery is good, crouch cancelling is good, has his cape to help with projectiles, wall jumps for tons of recovery mixups.

And then Diddy. This character has no tourney results? We've seen people who don't play the character at Xanadu just banana and peanut camp under a platform. That cuts off most of the casts approach options. His moves don't go into eachother as well as Mario, but they shouldn't because banana leads into whatever follow up you feel like dishing out. His fair has to be stronger than Sheiks, and it sends just as low, and he has bananas to set it up just as easily. It isn't even like he only has a projectile, he has an entire item that can be reused to apply tons of shield pressure, cover approach options, control tons of space. Ontop of bananas and fair his bair is amazing, nair is pretty good, uair combos, along with amazing recovery surrounded by an absurd hitbox, that sends out 2 projectiles that have homing when he is hit. He really has everything a character could want with tons of movement options, 2 amazing projectiles, a recovery that is a KO move and a meteor, command grabs to catch opponents who stay in shield because of his projectiles, and a fair that KOs pretty much anyone at 70% mid stage being generous.

Mario's best tool is Fire Ball. No one calls Mario broken for any other reason besides this one move. I could see him being top tier SOLELY off this. Also good joke with Kirby's bair being worse than Mario's.

If Diddy is as amazing as he's made out to be, then where are his tourney results?

 

[jtm94]

Mario is still top tier minus fireball entirely, just by less of a landslide. IF you could see him being top tier just because of that wait until you see what his other moves can do.

And I saw GnW top a tournament, must be top tier.
Junebug and Boss both win Xanadu fairly consistently both using Diddy and Boss using Mario. I have also seen Crescent Monkey do really well with Diddy. IF these characters weren't that good then why do so many players have pocket Diddys and Marios? The characters are so good you can use them at a learner level and reap huge benefits from their amazing moves.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Mario's best tool is Fire Ball. No one calls Mario broken for any other reason besides this one move. I could see him being top tier SOLELY off this. Also good joke with Kirby's bair being worse than Mario's.

If Diddy is as amazing as he's made out to be, then where are his tourney results?

That's because Mario isn't broken. He's just very good.
What about Link makes him superior to Mario? What about Zelda makes her superior to Mario?

 

[victinivcreate1]

Mario is still top tier minus fireball entirely, just by less of a landslide. IF you could see him being top tier just because of that wait until you see what his other moves can do.

And I saw GnW top a tournament, must be top tier.
Junebug and Boss both win Xanadu fairly consistently both using Diddy and Boss using Mario. I have also seen Crescent Monkey do really well with Diddy. IF these characters weren't that good then why do so many players have pocket Diddys and Marios? The characters are so good you can use them at a learner level and reap huge benefits from their amazing moves.

Never ever seen pocket diddy's in my wifi experience. Only pocket Marios. How about Junebug and Boss come out to a regional/national and play their characters?

As for the GW thing? Top a STACKED tourney aka one with the "super pros" (M2K, Prof, ESAM, Armada, Rolex, Sethlon, Emukiller, Wizzrobe, ZeRo, etc).

@ Pwnz0rz Man
Zelda
-A million KO moves
-Din's Fire traps
-Great recovery
-Can even play rushdown
-Huge hitboxes
-Excellent defensive play in general

Link
-One of the best campers in PM
-Strong combo game as well
-Spin Attack swag and semi spike
-General Melee physics aid his character
-Very good KO moves in general
-Hard to KO


Note: Both of these characters were overly buffed from Melee to PM. What makes them worse than Mario (who is supposed to be average, minus his overpowering Fire Balls) and Diddy?

 

[| Kailex |]

Why does thread exist, nobody will agree to anything and the game still gets updates. Yes, that has been said here all the time **** you.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Why does thread exist, nobody will agree to anything and the game still gets updates. Yes, that has been said here all the time **** you.

Because it can. And debating is fun. Lighten up.

 

[Deleted member]

I stopped reading at "Mario is not top tier".

 

[jtm94]

Mario was already good in Melee, and then taken and made better in every way.

Zelda got stronger kicks, teleport cancels, and a dins fire that is situational and over estimated as to how good it is. And she can play rushdown... No comment. Her recovery is the same as Melee bar the hit at the end of UpB. Her KO moves are fair, bair, uair, fsmash, and uptilt. Downsmash is very good near the edge. Backthrow is strong and sets up edgeguards, but is not much if stronger than Peach's fthrow.

I mean Mario has fsmash, upsmash, downsmash, nair, and fair. Along with a good backthrow and tons of moves that combo into fair at high %s. So he has a million KO moves too am I right?

I agree Link is good yes, but not overwhelmingly good. He still loses to characters who can outpace/outprioritize his projectiles.

As for Zelda she can only get so much mileage out of being defensive. In a game about being offensive if you are purely defensive you will slowly lose. Dins can be punished from pretty far away because it is rather slow. Nayrus has enough end lag that you bait it out and then hit her as hard as you can. The biggest buff I would say she got was teleport cancels and from Melee I don't think that alone makes her top tier. She has combos against heavy and fastfalling characters from low to mid %s, but other than that the only way she is getting a KO move through is via a punish. She can't just walk up to someone and fsmash and KO them, and if that did work the other player wasn't worth noting anyways.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I stopped reading at "Mario is not top tier".

Umbreon, name one thing that breaks Mario.

@jtm actually any character can. Zelda can do it pretty well too. Down smash. Granted ots close range. Ok fine Mario is top tier and Zelda high. As for Diddy.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

@ Pwnz0rz Man
Zelda
-A million KO moves
-Din's Fire traps
-Great recovery
-Can even play rushdown
-Huge hitboxes
-Excellent defensive play in general

Link
-One of the best campers in PM
-Strong combo game as well
-Spin Attack swag and semi spike
-General Melee physics aid his character
-Very good KO moves in general
-Hard to KO


Note: Both of these characters were overly buffed from Melee to PM. What makes them worse than Mario (who is supposed to be average, minus his overpowering Fire Balls) and Diddy?

How does that make them superior to Mario? Sounds to me like you just wrote a few qualities that each character had while neglecting to consider the buffs that Mario did receive and how they stack up in comparison to both Link and Zelda.

Just to point a few things out here.

Mario
-At least as good if not a better combo game than Link has, typically with more reliable finishers.
-Better movement speed than either Zelda or Link, allowing him to maneuver the stage more reliably.
-A more variable projectile than Zelda that can both cover his approach and his retreat.
-A less predictable recovery than either Zelda or Link. (Granted, it can be, but overall he doesn't have to go in straight lines or rely on iffy bomb jumps)
-Wall Jumps to bolster the already decent recovery.

I could probably point out more things, but my mind is blanking for some reason. Been playing too much GW and Roy lately.

 

[victinivcreate1]

How does that make them superior to Mario? Sounds to me like you just wrote a few qualities that each character had while neglecting to consider the buffs that Mario did receive and how they stack up in comparison to both Link and Zelda.

Just to point a few things out here.

Mario
-At least as good if not a better combo game than Link has, typically with more reliable finishers.
-Better movement speed than either Zelda or Link, allowing him to maneuver the stage more reliably.
-A more variable projectile than Zelda that can both cover his approach and his retreat.
-A less predictable recovery than either Zelda or Link. (Granted, it can be, but overall he doesn't have to go in straight lines or rely on iffy bomb jumps)
-Wall Jumps to bolster the already decent recovery.

I could probably point out more things, but my mind is blanking for some reason. Been playing too much GW and Roy lately.

Mario's movement may be better than Libk or Zeldas's but movement isn't their strength. Camping is. And they both outcamp Mario. Both can apply better shield pressure (Mario actually sucks at this) and both have arguably more reliable KO moves.

 

[Deleted member]

Umbreon, name one thing that breaks Mario.

best grabs in the game
best edge guards in the game
near automatic fair combos from launcher at kill %
upthrow dthrow uptilt dtilt fair dair upair dashattack upsmashOOS as launchers, so you can ALWAYS have a good conversion on any weight / fall speed / damage ratio
great combo game
fireball leadins for conversions

mario is basically ganon++++ with no drawbacks, no weaknesses, and no bad matchups. on top of that, his recovery is stellar, wall jump up b opens him up to an excessive amount of counterpick options, and his neutral game being based on a great projectile and WD back means that it's extremely hard to CP him back in any meaningful way. hilariously, mario also wins a bunch of matches that he lost in the previous two games, so people will try to counterpick you with characters like CF or marth and actually set themselves up for a MU disadvantage in the process. his moves are all so good that it's actually hard to determine which move is better than another in any given situation because they all work regardless of which one you choose. mario is made of, by, and for winning in every aspect. several people have asked for mario to be nerfed because of his fireballs, his recovery, his throw game, and his fair because all of his **** is so good that people can't even unanimously identify only one or two things as polarizing. etc etc etc.

 

[mimgrim]

Mario
-A less predictable recovery than either Zelda or Link. (Granted, it can be, but overall he doesn't have to go in straight lines or rely on iffy bomb jumps)

I agree with most things, but you are really underplaying Link's recovery. Between having AGT (which can actually help against being edguarded if done right), bomb jumping, tether, and a pretty good Uspecial for recovering. I don't see how Link can have a predictable recovery.

 

[victinivcreate1]

best grabs in the game
best edge guards in the game
near automatic fair combos from launcher at kill %
upthrow dthrow uptilt dtilt fair dair upair dashattack upsmashOOS as launchers, so you can ALWAYS have a good conversion on any weight / fall speed / damage ratio
great combo game
fireball leadins for conversions

mario is basically ganon++++ with no drawbacks, no weaknesses, and no bad matchups. on top of that, his recovery is stellar, wall jump up b opens him up to an excessive amount of counterpick options, and his neutral game being based on a great projectile and WD back means that it's extremely hard to CP him back in any meaningful way. hilariously, mario also wins a bunch of matches that he lost in the previous two games, so people will try to counterpick you with characters like CF or marth and actually set themselves up for a MU disadvantage in the process. his moves are all so good that it's actually hard to determine which move is better than another in any given situation because they all work regardless of which one you choose. mario is made of, by, and for winning in every aspect. several people have asked for mario to be nerfed because of his fireballs, his recovery, his throw game, and his fair because all of his **** is so good that people can't even unanimously identify only one or two things as polarizing. etc etc etc.

You sold me. This is probably the most informative post in the thread.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

I agree with most things, but you are really underplaying Link's recovery. Between having AGT (which can actually help against being edguarded if done right), bomb jumping, tether, and a pretty good Uspecial for recovering. I don't see how Link can have a predictable recovery.

I didn't say that he had a predictable recovery, just that Mario's is a little less predictable. I'm aware that Link has a multitude of options, though from distance, he can really only Bomb Jump and that in itself is sort of predictable.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

To me this how it goes

Top:

High:

Feel free to disagree but from my experience that's how it goes.

 

[victinivcreate1]

To me this how it goes

Top:

High:

Feel free to disagree but from my experience that's how it goes.

Sooo... my list basically.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda can't play rushdown lol.

Also, 90% of PM players underestimate just how difficult it is to do well with Zelda. Against experienced players, she takes a lot of forethought to succeed. If spamming lightning kicks was actually an overpowered tactic, she would have been top tier in Melee.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Zelda can't play rushdown lol.

Also, 90% of PM players underestimate just how difficult it is to do well with Zelda. Against experienced players, she takes a lot of forethought to succeed. If spamming lightning kicks was actually an overpowered tactic, she would have been top tier in Melee.

KDj and Zhime were able to play Rushdown Zelda.

 

[ELI-mination]

Zhime is probably the only one who makes zelda look good, she's really not that good. Believe me he does not play rushdown.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda has neither the maneuverability nor the attacks to play rushdown. If you are getting beaten by a Zelda attempting rushdown, you are simply inexperienced with the matchup. She has a reputation as "the noob killer" for a reason.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Zelda has neither the maneuverability nor the attacks to play rushdown. If you are getting beaten by a Zelda attempting rushdown, you are simply inexperienced with the matchup. She has a reputation as "the noob killer" for a reason.

Every Zelda I've played I've beaten handily. @ ELI-mination yeah Zhime makes her look incredible lol

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Sooo... my list basically.

I don't know which one was your list.

 

[victinivcreate1]

I don't know which one was your list.

Top Tier-
High Tier-

 

[Deleted member]

Every Zelda I've played I've beaten handily.

Then you are obviously not falling for their sub-par tactics. Like I said, Zelda takes a lot of skill and patience to use against anybody who isn't clueless about the matchup. She is not a character you can just pick up and do well with.

 

[Mr.Random]

Anyone else think Ganon is awesome in this game? Seriously why is he always so low?

 

[MLGF]

Zelda can't force her opponent to do jack ****. Like literally none of her moves force the opponent to do anything.
By ****ing lord, she's just a bait character and if you beat that it's over for her. Sure, she's weird but once you get over that it's a easy ass matchup.

Can't say this for any other character, since I don't know enough specific matchups, but killing Zelda offstage with Ike is oftentimes cake in anything but the low, and if they go for low it's obvious where they're going since they cut their options. TLDR, Zelda is trash.

 

[Deleted member]

Ganon has always been awesome. Unfortunately, awesome does not equal good.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Anyone else think Ganon is awesome in this game? Seriously why is he always so low?

Ganon is too slow. Not even joking. He can't hold his own when there are 1 frame shines, fire balls, Woopwoops, PK whatever, C4s, and spindashes are around. He's solid mid tier.

 

[Deleted member]

Most people consider him low tier in this game. His biggest weakness is probably against projectiles. He literally can't do anything but try to powershield.

 

[Deleted member]

Zelda can't play rushdown lol.

Also, 90% of PM players underestimate just how difficult it is to do well with Zelda. Against experienced players, she takes a lot of forethought to succeed. If spamming lightning kicks was actually an overpowered tactic, she would have been top tier in Melee.

spamming kick is obv terrible

but zelda is quite good at going in

and frankly she's super thoughtless. or maybe you don't play her that way but it would probably be better for you if you did.

 

[victinivcreate1]

Most people consider him low tier in this game. His biggest weakness is probably against projectiles. He literally can't do anything.

Don't forget his speed. All of the top tiers and most of the high tiers are lightnin' quick. Ganon isn't. His speed only makes him more susceptible to projectiles. At least characters without projectiles, like Marth, MK and Sonic have incredible mobility to get around it.

 

[Mr.Random]

I also agree that two things of Mario's needs to be nerfed. This is coming from a Mario main. Recovery and Fireballs need to go back to Melee timing or slightly faster. Other than that he's fine. He's still limited by his range, bad grab range, and average ground speed. This is why Melee top tiers still beat him.
1. They overwhelm him. (Fox, Falco, Falcon)
2. Outrange him (Marth, even Roy, Ivysaur)
3. Combo him to death (Mewtwo and ZSS)
I think Mewtwo is a hard counter to Mario by far.
@GeZ You have the same amount or more experience than me. What do you think?

 

[CORY]

Anyone else think Ganon is awesome in this game? Seriously why is he always so low?

he has to commit really hard to a lot of moves, which combined with his size, combo food weight/fall sped combination, and lower speed (with his burst mobility options being rather laggy) makes him have a poor neutral game.

i mean, he hits really damned hard, and puts on damage quickly, but that doesn't matter if people can just dance around you and force you to commit to hard reads in order to get something substantive.

 

[Chevy]

Emukiller is the best Mewtwo and he got camped out by a Samus. If you're getting outcamped, and you're Samus, then you need work on your camp game. MAJOR work on your camp game.

Did you know that good players are capable of mistakes? Consider the attributes of each character rather than one thing you saw one time between two excellent players.

 

[Deleted member]

and frankly she's super thoughtless. or maybe you don't play her that way but it would probably be better for you if you did.

Zelda is not a thoughtless character. People assume that she is thoughtless because she is not a combo-heavy character and doesn't have a lot of advanced techniques, but I'd argue that those traits add skill (albeit a different kind of skill than what is required for other characters.)

To play Zelda, you need to channel you inner psychic. Zelda requires a lot of baiting since she is slow and does not have to tools to be overly aggressive against experienced players. You need to read you opponent's actions so that you can punish them.

Optimal Zelda play, to me, requires proper mine placement combined with teleport cancels, which is not easy. Teleport cancels can surprise your opponent if you can read their actions and allow her to travel more quickly, but they are not lagless and improper use leads to predictability and Zelda herself getting punished. Mines help Zelda predict the opponent's actions, but you can't just throw them out there. First of all, they have lag and no active hitbox until you set them, so trying to set them up at the wrong time will get you punished. Second, many characters have ways of neutralizing them. Third, if you don't put them in the right places, they will be useless. There was a discussion at one point about all the possible mine placements and what they might cause your opponent to do. It's much more complex than people realize.

 

[Deleted member]

see i think zelda's teleport cancels and din's kinda suck because you're better off using real moves that kill people

whenever zelda players ask me for advice i tell them to hunt down and kill people harder and to not use dins at all.

 

[Deleted member]

That might work against those who are unfamiliar with the matchup, but at higher levels of play I don't understand how you expect to "hunt down and kill" people without using her mines or teleports. She simply does not have the speed or the moveset to rush in. You say spamming lightning kicks obviously isn't a good idea, but it sounds like that's exactly how you are playing her. I mean, what other moves could you possibly be running in and using?