Tier List Speculation

[Zx2963]

Yeah Zelda is really overrated, she is high mid tier at best. Most of her moves are very predictable, Ally crushed Zhime with Ike at Apex 2013, so it kinda shows that Zelda isn't THAT good

 

[Vashimus]

I don't really see how that proves anything beyond Ally just outplaying Zhime.

This is the same logic where people were saying Puff loses to Young Link after Pound V based solely off a couple games from Armada and Hbox.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'd argue playing defensively requires a lot more thought than playing offensively in any Smash game. If you play offensively you mostly just think about running up and throwing out appropriate attacks. While if you play defensively you have to think about where they are, what attacks their doing, what they're about to do, how to react to what they're doing, and how to react to what they're about to do. Zelda is built to be defensive which means you really have to think with her.

 

[BluntedMask]

Yup, spacing is obviously easy.

 

[Saproling]

Ill never understand why anyone would think Pikachu is top tier.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

As much of an Ally fanboy as I am, Ally didn't "crush" Zhime. They were absurdly even until he took Zelda to GHZ and entered The Zone. Match 2 on SV was last stock last hit and Ally would have lost the first match if a) Zhime hadn't effed up a ledge waveland and SD'd, and b) Ally hadn't got a near psychic read where he FSmash Zhime's ledge roll on his last stock, KO'ing him super early on the last stock after being combo'd all over Battlefield.

The GHZ segment of that match to an extent was Ally getting several of those psychic reads in quick succession as well as finally figuring out Ike's combo game on Zelda, which is p.good. Plus Zhime had no room to breathe on GHZ. Love that stage.

 

[zman804]

As much of an Ally fanboy as I am, Ally didn't "crush" Zhime. They were absurdly even until he took Zelda to GHZ and entered The Zone. Match 2 on SV was last stock last hit and Ally would have lost the first match if a) Zhime hadn't effed up a ledge waveland and SD'd, and b) Ally hadn't got a near psychic read where he FSmash Zhime's ledge roll on his last stock, KO'ing him super early on the last stock after being combo'd all over Battlefield.

The GHZ segment of that match to an extent was Ally getting several of those psychic reads in quick succession as well as finally figuring out Ike's combo game on Zelda, which is p.good. Plus Zhime had no room to breathe on GHZ. Love that stage.

He didn't crush him, he just got a lot of psychic reads? That sounds like a crushing. Doesn't mean he's way better than him but it does sound like he got bopped in that set.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Ill never understand why anyone would think Pikachu is top tier.

Fantastic movement with QAC, great edge guarding potential, really early kills (up smash thunder kills at like 50% on most of the cast), small hurt boxes, an ok projectile, good combo potential, and an unpunishable recovery. Now do you understand?

 

[Kink-Link5]

Pikachu is potentially the worst character at the moment, from both a development and design perspective. It's stiff competition with Ganon and Toon Link though.

 

[Deleted member]

Yeah toonlink sucks, pika and ganon are x1000000 better than him

 

[Kankato]

Fantastic movement with QAC, great edge guarding potential, really early kills (up smash thunder kills at like 50% on most of the cast), small hurt boxes, an ok projectile, good combo potential, and an unpunishable recovery. Now do you understand?

Is Upsmash-Thunder DI Dependant? Because Pikachu's Up smash is already absurdly powerful on it's own.

Pikachu is potentially the worst character at the moment, from both a development and design perspective. It's stiff competition with Ganon and Toon Link though.

Don't just throw out opinions, explain them. Even if it seems incredibly obvious to you why your statement is correct not everyone who reads this thread is on the same page with character information. Empty blanket statements bog this thread down to incoherent babbling.

 

[B.W.]

I don't really see how that proves anything beyond Ally just outplaying Zhime.

This is the same logic where people were saying Puff loses to Young Link after Pound V based solely off a couple games from Armada and Hbox.

Except Y.Link has had a very good matchup rating vs Jiggs for a while. And people knew it. Problem was that no one had the damn patience to play the matchup for a long time. Then Armada did, and people started realizing how ****ty that matchup actually is.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He didn't crush him, he just got a lot of psychic reads? That sounds like a crushing. Doesn't mean he's way better than him but it does sound like he got bopped in that set.

Lot of reads in one match out of three, where Zhime was one not-SD away from taking the set in the other two matches. Ally's a skilled player no doubt, and those reads are indicative of it, not contrary to it, but had he not been a little lucky in match 1, Zhime wouldn't have given him the chance to adapt.

Though who knows. I'm not trying to argue how the match would have gone in different circumstances, I'm just saying that Zhime and Ally are pretty close in skill and everyone mis-remembers that set as a thrashing because of the GHZ match, while the rest of the set was MUCH closer.

 

[ELI-mination]

How can anyone imply zelda is thoughtless after watching Zhime play

 

[Juushichi]

TL and Pika are obviously candidates for worst in the game.

Ganon, Falcon, ROB, Squirtle, GnW and a bunch of other mid-to-low tiers are OBVIOUSLY better. Yep. Absolutely.

Peach is also really bad, right?

C'mon guys, wake up.

 

[| Kailex |]

Ganon is not bad ;-;

 

[Ace55]

So for some reason I decided to make my first tier list since 2.1. It's kind of in order but don't pay too much attention to that. Likewise the cut off points of the tiers are very vague.


Absurdly good:



Really good:



Very good



Pretty good:



Ganondorf:




Who knows?

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Is Upsmash-Thunder DI Dependant? Because Pikachu's Up smash is already absurdly powerful on it's own.



Don't just throw out opinions, explain them. Even if it seems incredibly obvious to you why your statement is correct not everyone who reads this thread is on the same page with character information. Empty blanket statements bog this thread down to incoherent babbling.

Yes you can DI to avoid the thunder but the Pika can still follow up if he QACs to under you.

Can someone explain why they think he is bad? His grab range is horrible and he sometimes has a hard time getting in but that's alleviated by QAC and thunderjolt.

 

[MysteryRevengerson]

Gonna Redo my Solid like a Rock list again with some developed opinions of mine (OPINIONS, PEEPS)

ALSO, THIS IS IN NO PARTICULAR ORDER

Damn gurl, you a solid ten


Hella solid tho


Solid enough


(Literally) Broken

 

[PandaPanda Senketsu]

Pikachu is potentially the worst character at the moment, from both a development and design perspective. It's stiff competition with Ganon and Toon Link though.

Actually you would be surprised, Pikachu is actually on the higher end of the characters. Because he has a really good dash dance combined with great air mobility, so he can cross up shields and approach without too much trouble. He also has his multi hitting fair, which gives him a bit of priority so he can actually beat out a lot of different attacks. Combined with that he has his upsmash + thunder combo, and if the upsmash hits them too far away you can QaC thunder so they really have no way to escape it. Also nair upsmash is still a thing. Also fsmash is really strong, and dsmash is amazing.

So you have a character great ground and air mobility, who also has reliable kill set ups, high kill power, a fantastic recovery, and a good gimp game. So now you have a pretty good character, very well rounded.

Now give him quick attack canceling. Pikachu is now a very good character.

My work here is done, peace.

 

[Deleted member]

That might work against those who are unfamiliar with the matchup, but at higher levels of play I don't understand how you expect to "hunt down and kill" people without using her mines or teleports. She simply does not have the speed or the moveset to rush in. You say spamming lightning kicks obviously isn't a good idea, but it sounds like that's exactly how you are playing her. I mean, what other moves could you possibly be running in and using?

first off i never try to kick in neutral, ever. second, i usually go in the same way marth and sheik do, but using zelda's stage presence to cut off options. if zelda is running straight at the opponent, most players will instictively react with defensive movement such as wd back, shield, etc. no one really attacks a zelda who is also attacking them at the same time- and reasonably so. anyway rather than attacking into the ready opponent, simply keep taking stage and being threatening via your position. at some point, the opponent will have no choice but to engage you, at which time you can react and do what zelda does best accordingly. since you are still taking stage and forcing the opponent to deal with you, it is still a very aggressive way to play the character. however, aggression =/= over-extending foolishly.

good marth is played the same way btw, but hey thats why all the pm marths suck lol

 

[DrinkingFood]

TL and Pika are obviously candidates for worst in the game.

Ganon, Falcon, ROB, Squirtle, GnW and a bunch of other mid-to-low tiers are OBVIOUSLY better. Yep. Absolutely.

Peach is also really bad, right?

C'mon guys, wake up.

ROB

YEESSSSSSSS PMBR AGREES BUFFS CONFIRMED

 

[Terotrous]

I guess I'll attempt another tier list based on what I've seen at recent tournaments since we're all doing it:

Sort of ordered I guess?

Top:




High:




Mid:




Low:




Bottom:




I don't think anything here is really that shocking. Maybe Falco, but I think we've sort of collectively come to the conclusion that he's not quite as powerful as he used to be. Incidentally, I actually had Zelda pretty high for a long time, back when most people thought she was dead bottom. I think there's also fairly strong case to be made that Fox, Lucas, and Mewtwo are collectively a bit better than anyone else.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Actually you would be surprised, Pikachu is actually on the higher end of the characters. Because he has a really good dash dance combined with great air mobility, so he can cross up shields and approach without too much trouble. He also has his multi hitting fair, which gives him a bit of priority so he can actually beat out a lot of different attacks. Combined with that he has his upsmash + thunder combo, and if the upsmash hits them too far away you can QaC thunder so they really have no way to escape it. Also nair upsmash is still a thing. Also fsmash is really strong, and dsmash is amazing.

So you have a character great ground and air mobility, who also has reliable kill set ups, high kill power, a fantastic recovery, and a good gimp game. So now you have a pretty good character, very well rounded.

Now give him quick attack canceling. Pikachu is now a very good character.

My work here is done, peace.

Yes thank you, now if only everyone would stop putting Pikachu in bottom tier for no reason other than that they know nothing about him.

 

[Terotrous]

Yes thank you, now if only everyone would stop putting Pikachu in bottom tier for no reason other than that they know nothing about him.

The problem is he just doesn't have the results to justify being put much higher. There's a handful of other characters where I've seen some isolated good things (Luigi, Squirtle, Yoshi, Falcon, etc) but they're just not usually a factor in big tournaments. If they really were that strong, they'd be getting at least a few placings. Chances are they're all mid at best.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

The problem is he just doesn't have the results to justify being put much higher. There's a handful of other characters where I've seen some isolated good things (Luigi, Squirtle, Yoshi, Falcon, etc) but they're just not usually a factor in big tournaments. If they really were that strong, they'd be getting at least a few placings. Chances are they're all mid at best.

Axe and Anther placed really well at SKTAR. Esam also has a pretty good Pika secondary.

 

[Terotrous]

Axe and Anther placed really well at SKTAR. Esam also has a pretty good Pika secondary.

He did put in a pretty good showing there, I might be willing to bump him up a couple spots. ESAM did constantly have to switch away from him, though, which isn't usually a good sign.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

He did put in a pretty good showing there, I might be willing to bump him up a couple spots. ESAM did constantly have to switch away from him, though, which isn't usually a good sign.

Esam mains Samus in PM so that's not really a concern.

 

[steelguttey]

aight might as well try this

(in order)

top:



high:



high-mid:



mid:



low-mid:



bottom:

 

[Zx2963]

Pikachu is high tier (not top) material. People just need to go really deep with him, especially with QAC available, that should bump up Pikachu at least 3 whole tiers from Melee. I can't say Pit is top tier though, I think that's just because Armada plays him, I'd say also high tier at best.
@ Terotrous : Luigi is top tier, nobody has figured him out yet, just like Lucario

 

[MrBigstuff]

Red is high tier now? Sweet!

 

[mimgrim]

I guess I'll attempt another tier list based on what I've seen at recent tournaments since we're all doing it:

Sort of ordered I guess?

Top:




High:




Mid:




Low:




Bottom:




I don't think anything here is really that shocking. Maybe Falco, but I think we've sort of collectively come to the conclusion that he's not quite as powerful as he used to be. Incidentally, I actually had Zelda pretty high for a long time, back when most people thought she was dead bottom. I think there's also fairly strong case to be made that Fox, Lucas, and Mewtwo are collectively a bit better than anyone else.

Roy is too low. He should at least be in the middle of mid tier.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

aight might as well try this

(in order)

top:



high:



high-mid:



mid:



low-mid:



bottom:

Pokemon trainer? I'd change a few places but I mostly agree.

 

[steelguttey]

dude pokemon trainer is top tier

 

[Axrz]

Axe and Anther placed really well at SKTAR. Esam also has a pretty good Pika secondary.

Anther definitely did not go to SKTAR...

 

[Bryonato]

yeah you guys are thinking of super sweet

 

[Kink-Link5]

The problem is he just doesn't have the results to justify being put much higher. There's a handful of other characters where I've seen some isolated good things (Luigi, Squirtle, Yoshi, Falcon, etc) but they're just not usually a factor in big tournaments. If they really were that strong, they'd be getting at least a few placings. Chances are they're all mid at best.

Characters don't need good tournament results to show if they are viable. Just having a recording of the character DOING something is enough. It could be friendlies or, to a lesser degree, lab work showing that the character is capable of performing.

For example, Pit and Snake had no tournament results for a while, but if anyone watched Prof. Pro, Walk, or Armada when they did friendlies, it was clear that these were characters that had an insanely untapped potential.

You think Pit's good now? Try when his arrows could combo even better and reward camping on top of it, accompanied by being able to use side-B twice in the air.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

Anther definitely did not go to SKTAR...

What tournament am I thinking of?He did well recently at a tournament.

dude pokemon trainer is top tier

So confused

 

[Chevy]

@ Terotrous : Luigi is top tier, nobody has figured him out yet, just like Lucario

Luigi has been played in Melee for 13+ years. I think he's plenty figured out. Tornado buffs and storing misfire haven't exactly drastically changed his playstyle.

 

[Osennecho]

aight might as well try this

(in order)

top:



high:



high-mid:



mid:



low-mid:



bottom:

This is the most accurate list because it takes into account the fact Puff is so bad she shouldn't even be included.