Tier List Speculation

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I was a bit late coming into PM, but as I understand it, the original goal for the project (balance-wise) was to use Melee Fox as the central character and balance everybody around him.

[citation needed]

 

[Phan7om]

When you played a Kirby that can crotch to a near nonexistent hit box, he didn't have any problems with it (chu probably isnt a good example of someone who can work around boomerang, more impressive seeing bowser or dk do it.)

lol "crotch".

Also chu never uses a lot of Kirby's tools, new and even some old.(by new i dont mean dash attack/rock combos/cutter dash purely but advanced uses around those moves)(and by old i mean certain melee/brawl specific tech) If chu had my knowledge of Kirby, along with his smarts and experience, he'd take every tournament easy... and Kirby would be nerfed to **** lmao.

 

[jtm94]

There are enough characters in this game that I can find joy in playing because I enjoy the game as a whole, not the character.

I don't think Fox should be used as a baseline when he clearly has issues himself, but this is in years of hindsight.
As Fenrir said the game will need to have crazy good things to keep up with him. What if the workaround is changing Fox to be more acceptable, and then basing all the other characters accordingly by toning them down slightly.

See the problem isn't that character's themselves are OP, There are either 2 scenarios, 1 where a singular move can win matchups and is hard to punish so you just abuse it until the wheels fall off, or 2 where a character has a ton of decent moves instead of just a few solid moves and then situational ones. This causes characters to be flowcharts of combos aka Sheik-like where characters like Mario, Mewtwo, Fox, DK, Lucas can touch of death you into oblivion off of a single hit with crazy linking moves that add up to nonsense.

I honestly think the community is fine. It won't change. PMBR has done exceedingly well thus far, there have just been speed bumps along the way.

 

[WhiteLightnin]

So Fenrir's opinion of PM: an apologist's attitude for the PMBR. (tldr warning)

I was a bit late coming into PM, but as I understand it, the original goal for the project (balance-wise) was to use Melee Fox as the central character and balance everybody around him.
Now here's the central problem... Melee Fox had a nearly perfect neutral game, with both a perfect shield pressure tool, excellent edgeguarding, and nearly perfect offensive and defensive tools.

Now it's impossible to give every character fox's speed, options, and shine... So how do you make the chars as good without giving them the same advantages?

The answer imo is really the same answer that the PMBR seems to have come up with.. Increase every char's options and tools nearly to (or past the) point of stupid. I often refer to it as "the PMBR set out to make every char as dumb as Fox (note I didn't say as good)", and I honestly believe that.

So here we are at 3.02, and I really have to say bravo to the PMBR. The game that they have come up with is hilarious fun, and more balanced than any previous smash game, with most of the chars being viable. I'm actually very impressed with what the team has been able to do. Of course there are (and will always be) some balance issues, but it's pretty incredible as is. I feel that the team has very nearly nailed the original goal, and I appreciate the effort for that.

Now that said, like I said before, most chars have some really stupidly good options, because they kind of have to to meet the original goal of the project.

The problem is that people really don't like stupidly good options. In the time I've been paying attention to it, I've heard that no fewer than half the cast are OP and "need nerfs". Heck, go count how many char boards have a "this char seems OP" thread. I hope everybody sees the irony here. To me, this is an issue with the community, rather than the developers.

So where do we go from here? Imo, either nearly every char in the game (including Fox) should be nerfed, OR we as a community need to accept and embrace each char's stupid options, and honestly ask whether something is beyond the goal of the project before complaining about it.

I hate this term, but are things like Mario's fireballs, Link's rang, Zelda's priority, etc etc etc really more "toxic" for the metagame than Fox's shine, usmash, and combos were for Melee's? I'd argue vehemently that they are not. Yes there are things in the game that could use some minor tweaks (and there probably always will be), but the base we have isn't broken. It's actually pretty amazing.

The tldr version: when you set out to make everybody as good as Fox, there's going to be some really dumb/good stuff in the game. Let's either embrace that as a community and stop the endless character complaining, or do a heel turn on the original goal of the project and nerf nearly everybody, Fox included.

I couldn't agree more. The game is tons of fun as is, and no one is going to want to see their character nerfed or drastically changed. Let's just play the game and learn the MUs! If a character truly is overpowered and crushes the rest of the cast, then yes of course that should be addressed. Otherwise, let's try to embrace some stability. If the community as a whole continues to complain things will just keep changing. More and more players will continue to get tired of learning MUs they already knew over and over again, and eventually PM may altogether collapse like previous mods. PM is doing so well right now. Please, let's not ruin a beautiful project.

 

[Searing_Sorrow]

lol "crotch".

Also chu never uses a lot of Kirby's tools, new and even some old.(by new i dont mean dash attack/rock combos/cutter dash purely but advanced uses around those moves)(and by old i mean certain melee/brawl specific tech) If chu had my knowledge of Kirby, along with his smarts and experience, he'd take every tournament easy... and Kirby would be nerfed to **** lmao.

Everyone makes shots at chu dat's play style in some way lol. And yea spell check failed me but i stand by the overall meaning. Chudat is good at power shield and Kirby has a small hit box so not the best representation of a person getting around boomerang. I want to say boomerang at 12% would make it slightly less positive on block and takes nothing away from his play style. Which is overall better for link than increasing cool down on the move. It actually makes logical sense the boomerang should hurt more point blank, just 14 may be pushing it since you can. Get double shots, and the added shield stun. Link is right near the melee marth line, and will probably get worse as people adapt to his play style, just not as bad of a gimmick as Zelda, or the metaknight overhype in pm

 

[Fenrir VII]

[citation eneeded]

Well like I said, I haven't been around since the beginning so I can't say for sure that balancing around Fox was the original intent.

However, with the refusal to directly nerf Fox (the tiny laser nerf notwithstanding), the PMBR has heavily implied that this character is staying the same. Ergo, everybody else has to be balanced around him.

As a note, I understand the reasons given for not nerfing Fox, and actually agree with that direction for the game.

I just think we need to get past complaining that chars have stupid stuff.. Because EVERYONE has stupid stuff, and the game is pretty darn balanced, all things considered

 

[trash?]

I still don't understand how people are taking "kirby is good" from chu's weird-as-hell playstyle

chu just knows how to punish players who try to play project m like it's melee. do simple stuff, and if the opponent is like armada and rely on melee tactics, then they don't know what to do when even a slight understanding of how kirby plays could tell you that his ledge camping/swallowcide tactics aren't that good

also link's boomerang is genuinely the only reason you and I care about link at all, let's be real here

 

[Chesstiger2612]

Everyone makes shots at chu dat's play style in some way lol. And yea spell check failed me but i stand by the overall meaning. Chudat is good at power shield and Kirby has a small hit box so not the best representation of a person getting around boomerang. I want to say boomerang at 12% would make it slightly less positive on block and takes nothing away from his play style. Which is overall better for link than increasing cool down on the move. It actually makes logical sense the boomerang should hurt more point blank, just 14 may be pushing it since you can. Get double shots, and the added shield stun. Link is right near the melee marth line, and will probably get worse as people adapt to his play style, just not as bad of a gimmick as the Zelda and metaknight hype in pm

Meta Knight hype a gimmick?
10 ?s

 

[Strong Badam]

I still don't understand how people are taking "kirby is good" from chu's weird-as-hell playstyle

chu just knows how to punish players who try to play project m like it's melee. do simple stuff, and if the opponent is like armada and rely on melee tactics, then they don't know what to do when even a slight understanding of how kirby plays could tell you that his ledge camping/swallowcide tactics aren't that good

also link's boomerang is genuinely the only reason you and I care about link at all, let's be real here

I think the difference between Chu's sets with Armada and Zero paint a very clear picture.

 

[Bleck]

I don't think Kirby is good, but I do think that Chu's swallowcide ledgecamp nonsense is asinine. Maybe if that wasn't such a powerful, binary tool, the PMBR could afford to make Kirby actually good.

 

[Phan7om]

I don't think Kirby is good, but I do think that Chu's swallowcide ledgecamp nonsense is asinine. Maybe if that wasn't such a powerful, binary tool, the PMBR could afford to make Kirby actually good.

It is asinine, but its not that good. "Kirbyciding" is actually better in Melee and Brawl its just no one used inhale because it was way more unsafe. Melee let Kirby SD cancel on most of the cast as well as restore his jumps, and in both games it stole their jumps if they used it. Most people are noobs when it comes to playing Kirby and run into random ass swallows on the ledge, its like running into random ass rests from Puff but a little better.

 

[Bleck]

I'm not saying that it's too good - I'm saying that it just shouldn't be a thing at all. I think that we can all agree, more or less, that regardless of the strength of the strategy, it's not something that's fun to watch or to play against.

 

[Phan7om]

I'm not saying that it's too good - I'm saying that it just shouldn't be a thing at all. I think that we can all agree, more or less, that regardless of the strength of the strategy, it's not something that's fun to watch or to play against.

Im not arguing against you cuz i totally agree, Chu's Kirby isnt fun to watch at all... especially if you're me and has put a lot of time into what Kirby has, he irritates the hell out of me.

But then, are Fox/Falco laser camping at the other end of the stage, shine spikes any different? Its only different because, to my knowledge, there isnt a "good" spacie that camps hella hard and/or only uses shine for shine spikes with Fox... its kinda the same with Chu. When it comes to Kirby, no one knows what he can do besides like Inhale, Dash Attack, or Cutter dash so people think what Chu is doing is the only thing Kirby can do. His other tools are acutally hella good, ive just never seen any Kirby use them like at all lol. Its either Chu, or someone approaching with only dash attack and then getting 1 or 2 hits afterwards xD

They can get rid of Kirbyciding for all I care, Kirby players just need to find out that thats not the only use for it lmao, just like shine isnt only useful for shine-spiking.

 

[Jellyfish4102]

I'm not saying that it's too good - I'm saying that it just shouldn't be a thing at all. I think that we can all agree, more or less, that regardless of the strength of the strategy, it's not something that's fun to watch or to play against.

I'd like it if it was more situational and more read based. Instead of it being annoying and game changing.

 

[Phan7om]

Just make it so that if you mash out of him, it just starshots as if Kirby pressed A. fixed.
Theres also a lot of other stuff they could change in terms of slight "buffs" to compensate like uair trajectory, fthrow trajectory...etc.

 

[Bleck]

If it were up to me, I'd make it so that Kirby automatically swallows his opponent and copies their power before you have a chance to move or set up a suicide kill.

 

[Phan7om]

If it were up to me, I'd make it so that Kirby automatically swallows his opponent and copies their power before you have a chance to move or set up a suicide kill.

Your thinking is in the right direction, but that would take away from the whole command grab concept of inhale, making a lot of people run away and taunt cancel depending on the character which would then make it useless... Maybe if you cant walk but only turnaround and jump, not walk, and have the option to spit or swallow, or just shorten the timer, it would be better. Along with getting rid of the release option. Not just removing the starshot spit part entirely. Just dont get inhaled if that move bothers you that much lol. Most Kirby players, bad and good, dont know how to use inhale correctly and think the only way to use it is to Kirbycide, people just need to figure out to use it like other command grabs in the game (Wario, D3, Yoshi kinda etc.)

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Your thinking is in the right direction, but that would take away from the whole command grab concept of inhale, making a lot of people run away and taunt cancel depending on the character which would then make it useless... Maybe if you cant walk but only turnaround and jump, not walk, and have the option to spit or swallow, or just shorten the timer, it would be better. Along with getting rid of the release option. Not just removing the starshot spit part entirely. Just dont get inhaled if that move bothers you that much lol. Most Kirby players, bad and good, dont know how to use inhale correctly and think the only way to use it is to Kirbycide, people just need to figure out to use it like other command grabs in the game (Wario, D3, Yoshi kinda etc.)

Perhaps, but Kirby being able to walk after inhaling is something that has been part of him since the very first game "Kirby's Dream Land". I don't find inhale to be as BS overall as many people seem to though. Maybe just make it a little easier to break out of?

 

[Bleck]

Kirby has also been able to fly indefinitely since Kirby's Dream Land. That doesn't mean that's how it should be in Smash Bros.

 

[Phan7om]

Perhaps, but Kirby being able to walk after inhaling is something that has been part of him since the very first game "Kirby's Dream Land". I don't find inhale to be as BS overall as many people seem to though. Maybe just make it a little easier to break out of?

Exactly, the move doesnt need to be nerfed to ass. I actually think its fine as is, but w/e if people really get that salty from it, they just need to learn the mu more lol... but I understand and will try to rationalize with them.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

Kirby has also been able to fly indefinitely since Kirby's Dream Land. That doesn't mean that's how it should be in Smash Bros.

There are Kirby games where he cannot fly indefinitely.

 

[Bleck]

There's one.

 

[Phan7om]

There is also a game where Olimar plucks pikmin (lol), that should also be changed so that when you press B he should just throw them cuz I find it pretty broken that they all have different properties. Just give olimar his own moveset with smashes, specials and throws... If it were up to me lmao.

/sarcasm

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

I'm not saying that it's too good - I'm saying that it just shouldn't be a thing at all. I think that we can all agree, more or less, that regardless of the strength of the strategy, it's not something that's fun to watch or to play against.

Did he even pull that off against any of the good players at CEO?

 

[Bleck]

It doesn't matter?

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

There's one.

Two technically. Kirby's Air Ride counts. In any case, Smash has never allowed Kirby to fly indefinitely, but has always allowed him to walk after inhale. I think their official design choices should be considered, while at the same time taking consideration for game balance.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

It doesn't matter?

If he didn't puff it off against a good player, that should send a very clear message about this technique.

 

[Plum]

It doesn't matter?

It does?

 

[Rᴏb]

Kirby automatically swallows if you mash enough
Mashing out is more lenient

There, fixed.

 

[Phan7om]

I get where hes coming from, but that doesnt mean taking away 75% of the move completely. Cuz technically, Kirby could do exactly the same thing in Melee and was A LOT better and he's the worst in the game... its definitely his best option in that game.

"That doesnt mean it shouldnt be changed" I hear you think

Thats why honestly, making it so that mashing out starshots you and shortening the timer are the perfect nerfs for a move that doesnt need nerfing. Chu just relies on it too much so it looks very good, its not that good, tons of moves completely beat out inhale and can result in death... Ive tested these things. Like I said, if a new game came out and Fox never exsited before and a player only shine-spiked with shine it would get just as many complaints as inhale gets right now. Tbh, shine spiking is 10x better than attempting a Kirbycide the way Chu and most other Kirby's does it, rarely gets complaints cuz Melee.

 

[Bleck]

I think their official design choices should be considered, while at the same time taking consideration for game balance.

You mean like how Kirby was terrible in Melee and Brawl, presumably because of the balance issues presented by the efficacy with which one could repeatedly suicidekill once ahead?

If he didn't puff it off against a good player, that should send a very clear message about this technique.

It does?

Whether or not something is effective - at any level of play - has little and less to do with whether or not it should be in the game at all.

 

[Phan7om]

Falcon Punch shouldn't be in the game!!!! Its not good, but that doesnt mean it should be in there!!!

 

[Plum]

@ Bleck , you're drawing an extremely arbitrary line.

 

[Hinichii.ez.™]

@ Phan7om
I wish your name was Goham

 

[Bleck]

Falcon Punch shouldn't be in the game!!!! Its not good, but that doesnt mean it should be in there!!!

Falcon Punch serves a very specific purpose, and does it poorly. This is not the same as a move that does something well enough, but also inadvertently serves as another move that warps match-ups and forces opponents to play against the character in a way that's unsatisfying (again, regardless of whether or not it's actually effective).

@ Bleck , you're drawing an extremely arbitrary line.

How so?

 

[Phan7om]

Falcon Punch serves a very specific purpose, and does it poorly. This is not the same as a move that does something well enough, but also inadvertently serves as another move that warps match-ups and forces opponents to play against the character in a way that's unsatisfying (again, regardless of whether or not it's actually effective).

Ik, but imo the only think that might need to be changed about inhale is the aerial release. You still should be able to starshot, and copy. To take it further, they could shorten the timer on it, and maybe they should make it so that if you mash youd get starshot. Starshot sends the opponent up a great deal, its not game changing.

But its fine right now tbh, its actually really bad. If you actually get kirbycided by it, its almost like getting hit with a FP lol cuz the way most Kirby's do it is highly telegraphed and can be punished soo easily.

 

[Pwnz0rz Man]

You mean like how Kirby was terrible in Melee and Brawl, presumably because of the balance issues presented by the efficacy with which one could repeatedly suicidekill once ahead?

I don't see your point. Are you trying to say that Kirby is only bad in those games because he could kirbycide and not because the teams working on the games didn't put a lot of attention into actual balancing?

It also seems that you missed my point. To take design of the characters into consideration is not the same thing as basing a character around one move and intentionally making them suck as a result. I'm not sure where you came up with that idea. :/

 

[trash?]

y'all kind of missed bleck's point I think. I don't think swallow is actually good (or even alright, for that matter), but it's obnoxious, and obnoxious design can, in fact, be something addressed when balancing something, even if it's not viable at high-level

 

[Ripple]

just make it like DDD's. if you inhale offstage you're dead. all or nothing

 

[Phan7om]

y'all kind of missed bleck's point I think. I don't think swallow is actually good (or even alright, for that matter), but it's obnoxious, and obnoxious design can, in fact, be something addressed when balancing something, even if it's not viable at high-level

Swallow specifically? If so D3, Bowser, Yoshi, Ganon and Wario would need looking at also. And yes, even tho inhale is pretty bad in this game (and when I say bad i mean the payoff, getting it is rather simple), I guess if its working against you(not you specifically) it should be nerfed. :/