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Tier List Speculation

DrinkingFood

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That's exactly the same and worse, have you forgotten you can jump OoS?


Giving her a storable rollout charge, with a max movement speed and strength greater than it currently has but a longer charge time, is a better solution. It makes it dangerous for opponents to run away from her and camp or give her space to charge it. And if she does fully charge it, she has an early, fast, long reaching kill move good for tech chasing, ending combos, and punishing lag at a distance.

And then we give her an ftilt
 
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TreK

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About the DK cargo suicide :
As long as the opponent doesn't release before DK touches the blastzone, there is not a single character in this game that can survive this. There is a 30 frames long release animation during which the opponent keeps falling. No matter how floaty your character is, they are still going to hit the blast zone before you regain control of your character.
So should the win be awarded to DK in that case, despite him always touching the blast zone first ? I think it should.

And since I see a lot of people making that confusion : I'm talking about DK doing a cargo, then walking offstage and fast falling to both of your deaths, not DK trying to stage spike you with a cargo bthrow.
 

NickRiddle

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About the DK cargo suicide :
As long as the opponent doesn't release before DK touches the blastzone, there is not a single character in this game that can survive this. There is a 30 frames long release animation during which the opponent keeps falling. No matter how floaty your character is, they are still going to hit the blast zone before you regain control of your character.
So should the win be awarded to DK in that case, despite him always touching the blast zone first ? I think it should.

And since I see a lot of people making that confusion : I'm talking about DK doing a cargo, then walking offstage and fast falling to both of your deaths, not DK trying to stage spike you with a cargo bthrow.
But to beat Cargo, if it's the same as Brawl, you can hold up on the control stick and then mash buttons.
You get out pretty fast...
 

DMG

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DMG#931
For suicide options, I'm fine with using what the game says. If either player dies first, they lost. End of story. If it's a tie, you can grant it to the initiator or try to use %'s or do a 1 stock rematch.
 

DMG

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For ties, sure. If somebody clearly died first and the game recognizes that, that person should lose regardless.
 

GP&B

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Actual tier-talk contribution: I feel like Ike has the potential to be high tier. Top 15/Top 20 potential, but not tippity top tier.
I'm curious what makes you say this. I'm not doubting and I absolutely believe Ike's meta still has a long ways to go, but I've agreed with most placing him at mid/good enough. I will say that Ike doesn't suffer from major viability issues from his trickier MUs (Fox, Falco, MK, some others) just because the threat of getting hit by him is ridiculously dangerous, namely Nair forcing tech chases that Ike so deliciously capitalizes on.
 

Terotrous

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balancing for fun is not a bad thing to do. SFxT is "balanced" for strength, and even balanced to remove "cheapness" (its one "comeback mechanic" requires heavy amounts of skill to even remotely handle well), but it is still a game ripe with timeouts, and people don't like find timeouts to be fun to watch... so you see few people playing it.
At the risk of derailing this thread, SFxT received a major update a few months in that almost completely eliminated timeouts by basically eliminating recoverable life and cranking up character damage. I actually quite enjoyed the game to this point, managing your character switches to deal optimal damage while not wasting your recoverable life was a fun mechanic, and I actually found the game to be pretty fun to watch as well (those last-second matches were always exciting), but after the patch I lost interest and so did most other players. What I basically think happened is that they were trying to cater to the wrong community, they wanted to get Marvel players interested, but they just wanted to play Marvel. In that sense I wouldn't worry too much about what people who don't actually play Project M think about the game. If they don't understand the subtleties of the game of course they won't find it fun to watch.
 

Terotrous

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Anyway, about Jigglypuff. I think in order to make any kind of fix to Jiggs, we first have to talk about Rest. The basic problem with Jiggs is that Rest is such a preposterously strong option that Jigglypuff has to be terrible in every other way or it would completely dominate the game. We can't give Jiggs any legitimate combos that aren't wall of pain because they'd just lead into Rest for a guaranteed 0-death. She can't have good mobility options and Sing can't be buffed because then she could land Rest too easily. I think any talk of fixing Jiggs starts with the return of Brawl Rest. As well as not breaking the game quite so bad, it also guarantees a Star KO when it kills, which is nice because the opponent doesn't get a free punish when they come back. Note that if Jiggs has legit combos into Rest, she could still get Melee-like damage out of a situation where you could land raw Rest as a punish, by comboing into it instead.

Now that Rest is no longer a super gamebreaker we can talk about how to fix her other moves. Clearly her other B moves are junk. Pound is useful as a recovery move so it can stay, but Rollout and Sing are both garbage. I agree that I think making Rollout jump cancellable is a stupid option. I'm not even really in favour of storable Rollout, because I don't really see how it would fit in with her game. Where would you use it? I don't see it comboing in any situation and it still comes out fairly slow, so it'd probably only work as a whiff punish and she already has decent whiff punishes. Honestly, I think the move probably just needs to get the boot altogether. It's not iconic to Jiggs in any way, nor is it very useful. It should probably be replaced by a fixed Sing that either fires a projectile or can be cancelled with shield, and then she gets some kind of new Up B that both serves as a recovery and has some combo use after Uair.

As for normals, honestly I think Dair to Rest should go back to working properly like it did in Smash 64, with the last hit of her Dair having a weak meteor effect so you get the pop-up and Rest links easily. Yes, it's still technically possible without it, but it's so unreliable and the risk is so great it's almost never worth it to go for it, and characters like Lucas get equal if not greater reward off a Dair already. If Jigglypuff gets in close enough to hit you with all of the hits of Dair (keep in mind she has no good disjoints, most characters should be able to wall her out), she deserves to get some moderate reward for it. I'd also support some kind of buff to her pokes, probably a pop-up on F-Tilt similar to Yoshi so she could Nair or Fair afterwards.
 
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Zx2963

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Actual tier-talk contribution: I feel like Ike has the potential to be high tier. Top 15/Top 20 potential, but not tippity top tier.
Nope, I severely doubt it. He's just too slow compared to how he used to be. Luigi though has top tier potential
 

Zx2963

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Really?

He is?

News to me.
Not slow slow, but all the current top tier are bad matchups for him, only tournament results could make him look better then he is. And I'm pretty sure most people would agree that tournament results should not determine a character
 

mimgrim

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Nope, I severely doubt it. He's just too slow compared to how he used to be.
QD makes him not slow.

Also who cares who slow you are when you have a humongous sword that gives you godly range.

Not slow slow, but all the current top tier are bad matchups for him, only tournament results could make him look better then he is. And I'm pretty sure most people would agree that tournament results should not determine a character
They should play a role in tier lists, they shouldn't be the end all be all but they should definitely play a big role in them.

....

Also, can we fix ICs before we fix Jiggs? ICs are like so much worse due to losing what made them so... well "special" lol.
 

GP&B

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I don't get the statement "Too slow compared to how he used to be". I don't remember any aspect about him being slowed down when he got adjustments, besides the shield stun advantages that were obviously a bad part of his design. Nair is a tremendously useful tool for threatening fast fallers and cross-up Nair -> pivot Jab/Grab on shield is glorious.
 

Terotrous

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Also, can we fix ICs before we fix Jiggs? ICs are like so much worse due to losing what made them so... well "special" lol.
Both need fixing IMO. ICs are a bit harder. They definitely got nerfed that hardest in the transition to PM through the loss of their chain grabs, but I agree that chain grabs are terrible for the metagame and they also overcentralized the ICs. I feel that the main thing the ICs need is more damage / knockback. They have to work hard to land hits, but they aren't generally rewarded as much as other characters with comparable range and speed. In particular, I feel their FSmash should hit quite a bit harder in terms of both damage and knockback, turning Dthrow -> FSmash back into a legitimate threat.
 

Thane of Blue Flames

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I don't get the statement "Too slow compared to how he used to be". I don't remember any aspect about him being slowed down when he got adjustments, besides the shield stun advantages that were obviously a bad part of his design. Nair is a tremendously useful tool for threatening fast fallers and cross-up Nair -> pivot Jab/Grab on shield is glorious.
The *only* thing I can think of is the fact that Ike's tilts have been slowed down. Which is hardly a damning drop-two-tiers nerf.
 

mimgrim

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I think chain grabs are a good thing, actually. As a result, I do think ICs should be made around them and that their grab game should be the best in the game, just not based around an infinite lol.
 

Iceman

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Both need fixing IMO. ICs are a bit harder. They definitely got nerfed that hardest in the transition to PM through the loss of their chain grabs, but I agree that chain grabs are terrible for the metagame and they also overcentralized the ICs. I feel that the main thing the ICs need is more damage / knockback. They have to work hard to land hits, but they aren't generally rewarded as much as other characters with comparable range and speed. In particular, I feel their FSmash should hit quite a bit harder in terms of both damage and knockback, turning Dthrow -> FSmash back into a legitimate threat.
Well they are fixing the IC's chaingrabs. It's the core of their punish game. They need it to be viable.
 

Terotrous

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I think chain grabs are a good thing, actually. As a result, I do think ICs should be made around them and that their grab game should be the best in the game, just not based around an infinite lol.
I do agree that IC's should have the best grabs in the game, the strategy against ICs was always "don't get grabbed" and their metagame basically revolves around ways to land the grab, but ideally not in such a way that it just becomes a "single-player game" for 30 seconds and then you die. This isn't Marvel.

That's why I think just making their grabs lead into more damage is the desirable outcome. Same effect, just faster.
 

metroid1117

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The *only* thing I can think of is the fact that Ike's tilts have been slowed down. Which is hardly a damning drop-two-tiers nerf.
Kind of off-topic, but Ike got a lot of changes from 2.1 to 2.5 besides the addition of the tip/blade/hilt/arm system.

On-topic: Realistically, comparing the tools that Ike has on other characters (QD offering burst movement in neutral and punish game, massive disjoints, a great grab and throw game, and reliable recovery) and what he doesn't have (escape options from shield pressure, ground speed outside of QD, and a projectile), I think Ike is better than 50% of the cast and maybe even 75% of the cast if I were to stretch it, but only time will tell where he'll stand when PM is finished and the metagame fully matures.
 

Loli Bacon

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I do agree that IC's should have the best grabs in the game, the strategy against ICs was always "don't get grabbed" and their metagame basically revolves around ways to land the grab, but ideally not in such a way that it just becomes a "single-player game" for 30 seconds and then you die. This isn't Marvel.

That's why I think just making their grabs lead into more damage is the desirable outcome. Same effect, just faster.
Chain grabs are good because they can be beaten if the player performing them messes up. It's harder to mess up a bread and butter combo than it is to mess up a repeatable chain throw that can change according to DI. Since the opponent can DI the chain grab, that right there shows that it isn't solitaire and the person being grabbed has a direct influence on how they get comboed. The person performing the chain grab has to be on point with reactions and/or reads in order to combo for 30 seconds into death. Your mindset on this issue is actually quite common for recent players for competitive fighting games.

And even so, the game is multiplayer prior to getting into those chain throws; player made a mistake and they deserve to pay for it. They shouldn't be given more chances to get out simply because being helpless after making a mistake isn't necessarily fun.

I think ICs should heavily rely on chain grabs.
 

Terotrous

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Chain grabs are good because they can be beaten if the player performing them messes up. It's harder to mess up a bread and butter combo than it is to mess up a repeatable chain throw that can change according to DI. Since the opponent can DI the chain grab
The Ice Climbers Chain Grabs are not affected by DI. Take a look at this for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw8fRxWurO4

You're only out of the grab for a couple frames before you get put back in, it's not enough time for DI to do anything. The only way to get out is if the Ice Climbers player messes up, which is the definition of a "one-player game".


Incidentally, I agree that Smash's combo system is generally superior to other fighting games simply because the person being comboed has escape options, but in most chain throw situations they don't. That's why chain throws break the game and should generally be converted into throws with follow-up options.


The ICs chain throw also has an undesirable property where you can use it to stall down a match for time-out purposes, since you can keep an opponent in the grab for any length of time before killing them. Most tournaments DQ people who do this, but it makes tournaments more difficult to run since how much stalling is "excessive" is subjective.
 
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mimgrim

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I do agree that IC's should have the best grabs in the game, the strategy against ICs was always "don't get grabbed" and their metagame basically revolves around ways to land the grab, but ideally not in such a way that it just becomes a "single-player game" for 30 seconds and then you die. This isn't Marvel.

That's why I think just making their grabs lead into more damage is the desirable outcome. Same effect, just faster.
Or just give them non-infinite CGs.

The Ice Climbers Chain Grabs are not affected by DI. Take a look at this for example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jw8fRxWurO4

You're only out of the grab for a couple frames before you get put back in, it's not enough time for DI to do anything. The only way to get out is if the Ice Climbers player messes up, which is the definition of a "one-player game".
That's Brawl... Does PM not have any of that fixed for ICs?
 
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Terotrous

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Or just give them non-infinite CGs
Due to the way the IC's chaingrabs work that may not be possible. They have a unique ability to deliver a second hit immediately after the throw which puts you right back into the grab regardless of percentage, so things like knockback growth don't really apply.


That's Brawl... Does PM not have any of that fixed for ICs?
In PM wobbling is gone, and Nana will always throw the opponent upwards if she gets a grab, so both of those chaingrab techniques are no longer possible. I was just showing an example of how ICs chaingrabs (used to) work.
 
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Strong Badam

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But to beat Cargo, if it's the same as Brawl, you can hold up on the control stick and then mash buttons.
You get out pretty fast...
Hold up glitch has been fixed in PM.

EDIT: Ninja'd over an hour ago lmao
 
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Mera Mera

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In PM wobbling is gone, and Nana will always throw the opponent upwards if she gets a grab, so both of those chaingrab techniques are no longer possible.
This isn't entirely accurate. Wobbling is indeed out, but Nana will throw towards the nearest ledge if she's decently close to a ledge. She throws up when she's not very close to any ledge (in Melee she also throw towards the nearest ledge, but when farther from a ledge she would throw in a random direction instead of always up).

There is a (presumably inescapable? anyone know much about this?) infinite chain grab for ice climbers in Project M, and it uses this fact.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gPJgfNWJq-I

Edit: Also I agree that many chain grabs from Ice Climbers seem to make DI irrelevant. This chain throw definitely seems to fall under that category (although, needing to be by the ledge makes it kinda feel like a gimp... it might not be so bad if it's decently hard to start against a competent opponent).

That said the typical PM chain grabs I see are down throw -> squall hammer -> regrab and down throw -> Blizzard -> regrab which seem common in Project M are heavily influenced by smash DI. In fact, from my experience they can consistently be escaped on first attempt with smash DI. Even if this was caused by some error on the opponent's end when I escaped the regrab, with smash DI you could bring your character off a ledge in a couple of throws to force a combo finisher (since they wouldn't be able to regrab off stage).
 
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