Tier List Speculation

[Terotrous]

Oops, I meant Mew2King, though I bet Hungrybox has played Fox at one point or another.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I just got done going through every tournament results for 3.0 listed on this site in the sticky. I saw a grand total of 1 person that used Fox and took 1st place, that wasn't M2K; he also used about 5 other characters. Granted, I didn't bother looking up who the first place people used on the tournaments that didn't have character icons next to them, but I think there were only 2 or so.
Logic tells me that everyone other than Fox is OP.

I feel like 80% of the Fox hate is completely based on theory-crafting without any significant tournament evidence to support.

I think the non-named ones might be the problem. I've seen a ton of matches where someone will get beat with their main and then go to Fox.

So Fox is currently being used as a counter-character in some tournament matches... how does that indicate he is broken and needs nerfed?

OF COURSE Fox has some good matchups and is good as a secondary character.. using this as a reason that he should be nerfed would then also apply to every other secondary that is ever used in tourney... I think this is a flawed stance to take.

 

[Soft Serve]

Could be. I only didn't bother looking at 4 of the 41 tournaments, because they didn't have icons next to them and I don't feel like searching for the results. So maybe another fox or two in that total. I'm not putting together hard statistics, I'm simply pointing out that Fox hasn't been as dominant as you would think from having read the last few pages. Also, I didn't even know Hungrybox plays Fox. I'm yet to see his in a video, or him switch to him. I really only see him switch to Olimar.

Yeah I've never seen him play fox. I'm sure he has a pocket fox, every high level melee player does, but I haven't seen it. When he went by suave he used to be a marth/shiek main with jiggs as a secondary iirc.
something else to consider on top of the 3.0 results thread, as the thread isn't constantly updated, is just the smashboards rankings. I've posted it before : http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams its not updated that often either. It also says that wolf has just as many top 8 placings a fox at 62 (although 25 of those are just Rat). Statistics are interesting and I wish we could be more consistent in how it is updated, just so see what characters/players are truly dominating.

 

[Terotrous]

So Fox is currently being used as a counter-character in some tournament matches... how does that indicate he is broken and needs nerfed?

It depends on the frequency with which he's the counterpick character and the frequency with which it works.

In a lot of fighting games, there's sort of a gentleman's agreement not to abuse broken characters, until the chips are down, at which point everyone goes to that same character.

I'd actually want to know how many people would play Fox but don't because they feel that he's cheap.

 

[Juker]

Yeah I've never seen him play fox. I'm sure he has a pocket fox, every high level melee player does, but I haven't seen it. When he went by suave he used to be a marth/shiek main with jiggs as a secondary iirc.
something else to consider on top of the 3.0 results thread, as the thread isn't constantly updated, is just the smashboards rankings. I've posted it before : http://smashboards.com/rankings/project-m.4/league/teams its not updated that often either. It also says that wolf has just as many top 8 placings a fox at 62 (although 25 of those are just Rat). Statistics are interesting and I wish we could be more consistent in how it is updated, just so see what characters/players are truly dominating.

That is interesting. On the same note of most of those being Rat, I bet it's the same with M2K for Fox. The irony of this is, if M2K decided to start playing Mewtwo exclusively, Mewtwo would likely look like the best character from those results. Because M2K is one of the best players in the world, and probably the most active tournament participant of the best players.

 

[Terotrous]

That is interesting. On the same note of most of those being Rat, I bet it's the same with M2K for Fox. The irony of this is, if M2K decided to start playing Mewtwo exclusively, Mewtwo would likely look like the best character from those results. Because M2K is one of the best players in the world, and probably the most active tournament participant of the best players.

This is also a problem with just using tournament results (especially wins) as the metric. There are some players that can make a character look top tier just because they're that good.

 

[Juker]

This is also a problem with just using tournament results (especially wins) as the metric. There are some players that can make a character look top tier just because they're that good.

That's what I was saying.

 

[Paradoxium]

This is also a problem with just using tournament results (especially wins) as the metric. There are some players that can make a character look top tier just because they're that good.

And the problem with this is that people pick and choose when it was the player or character. If someone won with Falco I'm sure many people would be quick to claim that he won because Falco is op, but if the same person won with a different character than they say he was just playing good.

 

[Terotrous]

And the problem with this is that people pick and choose when it was the player or character. If someone won with Falco I'm sure many people would be quick to claim that he won because Falco is op, but if the same person won with a different character than they say he was just playing good.

I think that's the main reason that tournament wins alone is not a good indicator of quality. Another issue is that there are simply very few players for some characters, like Luigi (also Jiggly and Olimar, though they have Hungrybox).

The better metric is just to see how well they perform when they are chosen, and I really don't think you can say Fox doesn't do well. Like I mentioned earlier, I feel like even when Fox is played by people who aren't known for Fox, he pretty much always keeps it close even if he loses. That seems kind of suspicious to me.

 

[Strong Badam]

I feel like 80% of the Fox hate is completely based on theory-crafting without any significant tournament evidence to support.

actually approximately 100% of it is due to real-world experiences with and against a character. people often don't argue for buffs or nerfs based on theory, especially when there's a plethora of data and information out there about the character in two different, popular games.

 

[Praxis]

As for this tierlist, Fox and falco should not be in there own tier anymore. Falco should probably not even be next to fox anymore. This is not melee guys. There are characters that can beat fox/falco (falco even more) in the matchup (Mewtwo and MK just being two of them).

Wait, how the heck does Mewtwo counter Fox?

 

[Hylian]

Wait, how the heck does Mewtwo counter Fox?

Big grab range, and good grab set-ups -> Grab -> Uthrow -> DJC fair -> Grab -> Uthrow -> DJC fair -> Grab Uthrow -> hover uair or utilt or DJC uair depnding on di -> Uair -> Shadowball.

...I'm not exaggerating >_>

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

I don't think 2.6 Ivy was winning that many tournaments either.

And yes, Fox is being used as a counterpick in 'some' tournament matches. Like against Ivy. And Snake. And Link. And Lucas. And Meta Knight. And Wolf. And -

I dunno if people watch as many streams as I do but Fox is counterpicked an awful lot against an awful lot of characters. Additionally, Apex 2014 had two Foxes in the top 8 - DEHF and M2K. DEHF used spacies exclusively while M2K used Fox more than any other character. He never went Marth for more than a match in a single set (FoD v/s Rolex and SV v/s Sethlon) and went Mewtwo against DEHF due to his belief that Mewtwo wrecks fast-fallers. (I could see a case being made for this, but more importantly Mewtwo can wail on spacies pretty hard. He's got good combos, teleport to get out of pressure situations and Mewtwo goes offstage and bairs spacie recoveries with near impunity.) Not to mention that DEHF beat Fly Amanita, who was using a character whose entire modus operandi is "Get people offstage and murder them horribly while they're there." And that's a match that happens pretty often at SoCal biweeklies, with DEHF having a couple weeks of regularly taking SSS's from Fly. I'm wondering at this point why I haven't seen Fly go Sheik in those matches, but at this point it might be a pride thing.

@DontHate- : If you want to demonstrate that Mewtwo handles spacies, at least don't use Mew2King v/s Random Player in pools as evidence. Have the decency to link to Mew2King v/s DEHF. I can on a similar note provide you with Chillin v/s SmashG0d, two good players who are much closer in skill. Chillin pretty definitively beat SmashG0d's Mewtwo at Xanadu recently, using Wolf, a spacie that takes all of the Foxco collateral damage but lacks the stupid cheese that they get, and is considered a top threat but worse overall than Foxco.

 

[Fenrir VII]

In a lot of fighting games, there's sort of a gentleman's agreement not to abuse broken characters, until the chips are down, at which point everyone goes to that same character.

I'd actually want to know how many people would play Fox but don't because they feel that he's cheap.

I feel this is irrelevant. PM is a new game. It's not a given that Fox is the best character... and high-level smashers have no problems being a-holes to win and get money... There were a bajillion Foxes in Melee, but very few mains in PM. I find it hard to believe that it's because the PM scene is more gentlemanly.

actually approximately 100% of it is due to real-world experiences with and against a character. people often don't argue for buffs or nerfs based on theory, especially when there's a plethora of data and information out there about the character in two different, popular games.

Statements made in this thread (paraphrased so I don't have to quote people):
"Fox is overwhelming in the neutral"
"Aside from the laser nerf, Fox received no nerfs from Melee"
"Fox is the best character in PM"
"I find it hard to believe that Fox can have bad matchups due to his strong neutral game"

Most of this is theorycrafting with little to no evidence to back it up. On top of this, people vehemently argue that Fox is still the best and should be nerfed to avoid "killing the balance of PM".

Now, I understand M2K has a good Fox.. but M2K is M2K, and if he didn't have Fox, he'd have a Marth, or Sheik, or MK and do the same type stuff and likely have about as much success.. so I do think that in this case, it's acceptable to remove him from consideration of Fox's brokenness..

Aside from M2K, very few Melee Fox players are having success with him in PM. The tournament evidence is not there to suggest a Fox nerf in PM. Yes, if we were arguing a nerf in Melee, I would be on your side here. But PM is a different game, and the data is showing that Fox just isn't as dominant...

 

[Terotrous]

I feel this is irrelevant. PM is a new game. It's not a given that Fox is the best character... and high-level smashers have no problems being a-holes to win and get money... There were a bajillion Foxes in Melee, but very few mains in PM. I find it hard to believe that it's because the PM scene is more gentlemanly.

In Melee, there's only like 3 other characters you can even play, so it doesn't really apply there. Here, we have a whole cast of other viable characters to use, so using good old broken Fox seems comparatively much more lame.

Actually, if most people dropped Fox and Falco, we could very safely give them those minor tonedowns now without alienating a large segment of the playerbase.

Most of this is theorycrafting with little to no evidence to back it up. On top of this, people vehemently argue that Fox is still the best and should be nerfed to avoid "killing the balance of PM".

I'll freely admit that there's a lot of theory fighter going on, but it's pretty impossible to deny that Fox's toolset is super strong, and there are design choices in there that are anomalous with the rest of the cast. There's also a clear unwillingness to examine the balance decisions surrounding the space animals from significant parts of the community, which only makes it seem more likely that they are not balanced properly.

I might be willing to agree that it's slightly higher priority to improve the bad characters first (because characters like Jiggs and Ganon are farther away from the ideal balance range than Fox is), but it's still probably something that needs to be looked at eventually.

 

[The_NZA]

And the problem with this is that people pick and choose when it was the player or character. If someone won with Falco I'm sure many people would be quick to claim that he won because Falco is op, but if the same person won with a different character than they say he was just playing good.

This is such a toxic element of the PM community that somehow became a part of our culture. When I put on Smashing Grounds, its disgusting how much of the chat blames a win on a Melee character being OP.

A win is a win. It's one thing to root against a melee character and another to take away a players victory.

 

[Praxis]

I think a big part of it is that P:M Fox is basically Melee Fox- in other words, Fox has 12 years of metagame behind him.

Everyone knows Fox's best stuff, everyone's played Fox for years in Melee. Other characters are still evolving. Even if they find no more ATs, people don't know the best options and responses with each character. They will learn.

If I'm a Melee Fox player and I pick up Ivysaur in P:M, when I find myself losing I will switch back to my Melee Fox.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

I think that foxs upsmash should just be changed a tiny bit. The main issue is he has a big neutral game and then can easily follow in with his beastly, hard to punish in comparison to other upsmashes, upsmash. If this was changed just enough itd put fox on par with all the other, 'perfectly designed' characters.

I do find that PM is much different from PM though as I delve more into researching tournaments for construction of a teir list.,. Fox is not very often placed in the top places with new players. In fact he places pretty close to the same amount, probably a bit more, but not by much by 'nonpro' players. He still has the most and would be rated the highest, but not drastic and is often beaten by other characters, so he is not OP, just not perfectly balanced.

 

[fabulouspants]

m2k and dehf are complete **** as players and only win due to the blatant OP ness that is fox./falco notice how mango can't win in PM!? because fox got nerfed and now hes bad.

melee players are getting exposed for waht they are. bad players USING OP stuff.

 

[Vashimus]

I feel this is irrelevant. PM is a new game. It's not a given that Fox is the best character... and high-level smashers have no problems being a-holes to win and get money... There were a bajillion Foxes in Melee, but very few mains in PM. I find it hard to believe that it's because the PM scene is more gentlemanly.


Statements made in this thread (paraphrased so I don't have to quote people):
"Fox is overwhelming in the neutral"
"Aside from the laser nerf, Fox received no nerfs from Melee"
"Fox is the best character in PM"
"I find it hard to believe that Fox can have bad matchups due to his strong neutral game"

Most of this is theorycrafting with little to no evidence to back it up. On top of this, people vehemently argue that Fox is still the best and should be nerfed to avoid "killing the balance of PM".

Now, I understand M2K has a good Fox.. but M2K is M2K, and if he didn't have Fox, he'd have a Marth, or Sheik, or MK and do the same type stuff and likely have about as much success.. so I do think that in this case, it's acceptable to remove him from consideration of Fox's brokenness..

Aside from M2K, very few Melee Fox players are having success with him in PM. The tournament evidence is not there to suggest a Fox nerf in PM. Yes, if we were arguing a nerf in Melee, I would be on your side here. But PM is a different game, and the data is showing that Fox just isn't as dominant...

The problem comes when people think because a character isn't broken or dominant in tournaments, that makes the character immune to any potential balance changes. I can list off plenty of characters that have gotten small changes or nerfs throughout the releases despite not being broken or dominating tournaments. If Fox is gonna be left alone, then we might as well stop picking favorites and leave every character alone.

 

[1MachGO]

Most people consider the top 8 characters in Melee to be rather balanced against each other. I can't see how anyone who plays P:M couldn't rationalize that Fox and Falco don't have competitors when they have still failed to pull away from the rest of the cast in the 10+ year old game they originate from.

Some things to consider:

-Fox and Falco are really popular and OLD. Their meta has been overdeveloped and many Fox/Falco mains have clearly pulled ahead of their peers. Simply put, competition needs to develop counter strategies and adapt.

-[Movement] speed and positioning capabilities are Fox's primary advantage and his most "broken" aspect. However, in theory, speed is only a gimmick. Comprehending speed is just a limitation for the player to overcome not unlike any other technical barrier. Think of it like a rhythm game where the highest difficulty seems too daunting but can be conquered.

-Everyone's punish game on Fox and Falco is soooo unoptimized. I sometimes feel like M2K and Armada were the only two players in the world who were actually willing to practice formulaic death-combos. It definitely isn't exciting stuff (especially for the crowd) but everyone should work on chaingrabs, [PLATFORM!] tech chasing, and edge guarding against these characters. Almost every member of the P:M cast has an aerial kill move or chain grab so players shoul perfect their kill combos.

 

[Fenrir VII]

The problem comes when people think because a character isn't broken or dominant in tournaments, that makes the character immune to any potential balance changes. I can list off plenty of characters that have gotten small changes or nerfs throughout the releases despite not being broken or dominating tournaments. If Fox is gonna be left alone, then we might as well leave character alone.

Oddly enough, I don't disagree with you here. However, I am calling for the Smashboards community to be consistent in changes that are made.
Case in point: Wobbling is still legal in Melee, with the rationale that it "isn't broken or dominant in tournaments", despite people pretty universally accepting that it's ridiculous.

Now, that was Melee... this is PM. But our logic prior has been to not remove things that were not OP in tournament.

Honestly, I am ok with Fox getting a small nerf to usmash killpower only, if we want to make a break with what we've done previously and nerf the "stupid" things in this game. But at this point, I'm still against the Fox nerf, because I believe the substantiation of it is very shaky.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

I'm wondering at this point why I haven't seen Fly go Sheik in those matches, but at this point it might be a pride thing.

I don't go Sheik against Larry because I'm bad at Sheik vs Fox. If I were to use any secondary against him, it would be Peach, Marth, Pit, or maybe Lucario if I ever get up to speed with that character again, but I don't really feel much need to try any of that. More significantly, I never really do badly against Larry as DDD; I still win about a third of the sets we play, which, while not good, isn't enough to make me feel like I'm making an awful decision sticking with him, plus I feel like I can trace most of my losses to bad decisions on my end (coupled with good play on Larry's side) rather than character faults.

 

[fabulouspants]

Fly, I really like your outlook on this game.

 

[Vashimus]

Oddly enough, I don't disagree with you here. However, I am calling for the Smashboards community to be consistent in changes that are made.
Case in point: Wobbling is still legal in Melee, with the rationale that it "isn't broken or dominant in tournaments", despite people pretty universally accepting that it's ridiculous.

Now, that was Melee... this is PM. But our logic prior has been to not remove things that were not OP in tournament.

Honestly, I am ok with Fox getting a small nerf to usmash killpower only, if we want to make a break with what we've done previously and nerf the "stupid" things in this game. But at this point, I'm still against the Fox nerf, because I believe the substantiation of it is very shaky.

A lot of Charizard players including myself didn't like the idea of nerfing his D-smash range and his glide wasting one of his jumps, and Charizard wasn't broken or dominating tournaments outside of metroid. In fact, many people agreed he was in the bottom half of the cast. But f*ck him, right?

Really, I don't care if Fox is left alone or not at this point. I enjoy the game way too much too cry over this kind of thing anymore. I will agree on consistency.

 

[Ripple]

-[Movement] speed and positioning capabilities are Fox's primary advantage and his most "broken" aspect. However, in theory, speed is only a gimmick. Comprehending speed is just a limitation for the player to overcome not unlike any other technical barrier. Think of it like a rhythm game where the highest difficulty seems too daunting but can be conquered.

.

it is very much NOT a gimmick. it is something that that you can't just react to or like a tech skill barrier at all.

and how the hell is it even close to a rhythm? there should be no pattern to it. fox shouldn't have any rhythm at all if it's even a mediocre fox. meaning if you guess wrong you die at 90% unlesss you're also a fast faller

 

[Deleted member]

Well I guess its time to break out the violin and play the world's saddest song for the mid-level players of PM. Maybe Fox's usmash does deserve to be nerfed, if someone discussed how at high/top level play it lead to Fox being strategically too dominant I could see an argument for the sake of diversity. But the idea that on its own "speed + usmash = win/too good" is taken seriously is too much, reading the latest convos and tossing out mid-level play as red flags reminds me of serious cries that Meta Knight could tornado his way to victory when the same players put no effort into beating it.

Well since you insist on playing this game:

Apex 2013 Results

Super Smash Bros. Brawl Singles (338 Entrants)

1: Salem ($3,285.00)
2: CT EMP Mew2King ($1,642.50)
3: Otori ($722.70)
4: Nairo ($394.20)
5: Anti ($164.25)
5: Mikeneko ($164.25)
7: Mr. R ($98.55)
7: Dabuz ($98.55)
9: Dojo
9: Zero
9: DEHF
9: 9B
13: ESAM
13: Rain
13: Ally
13: Vinnie
17: ADHD
17: Suinoko
17: Zinoto
17: Havok
17: Pwii
17: Kakera
17: Nakat
17: Tyrant

tl;dr: nerfing fox upsmash isn't a "burden of proof" argument, it's based on the current perception of the game just like every other nerf has been. Everyone who knows how to play this game "gets it" pretty obviously.

 

[The_NZA]

it is very much NOT a gimmick. it is something that that you can't just react to or like a tech skill barrier at all.

and how the hell is it even close to a rhythm? there should be no pattern to it. fox shouldn't have any rhythm at all if it's even a mediocre fox. meaning if you guess wrong you die at 90% unlesss you're also a fast faller

I think moreso the point is that hte word gimmick is entirely useless in the way it gets thrown around.

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

He still has the most and would be rated the highest, but not drastic and is often beaten by other characters, so he is not OP, just not perfectly balanced.

That describes literally every character to be rebalanced in P:M thus far.

 

[bolt.]

In Melee, there's only like 3 other characters you can even play, so it doesn't really apply there. Here, we have a whole cast of other viable characters to use, so using good old broken Fox seems comparatively much more lame.

Really? Only like 3 other characters?

The evo results have 8 different characters in the top 8 and the character who is ranked 8th on the tier list got 2nd!
Apex had 11 different characters in the top 16 going all the way back to yoshi and young link!
Genesis 2 had 8 different characters in the top 8 as well, and a guy who got third using mewtwo and marth!

So, while I agree that a lot of characters aren't viable and there are more viable characters in p:m, saying that only four are viable is nuts! Melee is way more balanced than most project m players like to admit.

 

[Osennecho]

-Fox and Falco are really popular and OLD. Their meta has been overdeveloped and many Fox/Falco mains have clearly pulled ahead of their peers. Simply put, competition needs to develop counter strategies and adapt.

It's very important to recognize that this goes both ways though. People already know how to fight Fox/Falco more so than other characters on average. Despite this Fox still does extraordinarily well. Their meta also has additional room to develop as every match up should have a different play style to an extent. That's just the way of the game.

In fact, one could argue that the fact that everyone has experience with Fox hurts him now but will not later. For example, not everyone has experience with high level play involving the other characters and how to deal with them. That doesn't mean Fox isn't amazing, simply that as the game develops he will become more viable rather than less as that "knowledge" regarding how to deal with Fox will no longer be an advantage.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that this particular argument you gave argues both what it says and the exact opposite. It's a substantially flawed argument that I am rather sick of hearing. Both sides of it have a point, and both sides are also correct.

 

[Radical Larry]

Onto my opinions on Link in Project M 3.0.

Link is among the best, in my opinion, in P:M 3.0's cast due to his now above average attack speed, retaining power and of course, the increased range with his hitboxes; this is especially evident when using his Melee Costume and his tilts. However, his cons would include his large hurtbox, easiness to combo and weight. These are the unimportant changes that I am listing down.

But the most positive changes have to be his air, falling and dashing speed, which have been buffed to where he can benefit from this now and is not a sluggish character anymore and his Spin Attack regaining its Semi-spike properties. He also has a drastic increase of speed with his grab and normal attacks, which grant him even better options now that he is faster than before, even when compared to Ike. The negative changes would have to be that his Boomerang range has decreased, his inability to chaingrab at the full extent of his grabs and short recovery (which, mind you, I know about the Glide Toss Input which gives Link better recovery options).

Personally, I would speculate that he'd be around 5-8 at best, with the other three being Captain Falcon, and Samus, and being behind Falco, Fox, Marth and Mario, respectively. At the least, Link would retain his spot at the upper half of the tier lists. Of course, I may write a tier list of my own for 3.0 in my next post regarding this matter. And all of this is my opinion about Link in P:M, and personally, I'd like to hear your opinions about him; do you think he's a good, viable character or still bad among the cast?

Remember, this is my opinion on the matter, and you can have a very different one.

 

[Strong Badam]

Statements made in this thread (paraphrased so I don't have to quote people):
"Fox is the best character in PM"

you say this as if it isn't true lmao

 

[Ali Baba 177]

That describes literally every character to be rebalanced in P:M thus far.

So you agree that he should be rebalanced ever so slightly?
When would the next update be for PM anyway? End of summer?

 

[Radical Larry]

Two characters that should have tweaks in their recoveries would have to be Toon Link and Roy. Toon Link has the downright worst recovery because, despite his jumps being slightly the same, his falling speed and air speed have increased and decreased dramatically, respectively. Also, his recovery move, since it is now like Link's from SSB64, is very, very poor, as it gains barely any horizontal distance and lackluster vertical distance.

As for Roy, his recovery is slow towards the end, albeit its very fast start up. It's also quite predictable, short range and slow overall, being very gimpable and lacking in power. However, the good thing about it is that it is hard to edge-guard an opponent with this recovery, and of course, has decent knockback.

 

[Osennecho]

^Do you know about AGT (aerial glide toss)? TL's recovery def is not the worst in the game.

 

[Radical Larry]

Yes, I know the aerial glide toss, where you throw the bomb up, hit it and regain your recovery move.
However, even with this, Toon Link faces a tough time recovering because of his now-fast falling speed and slower aerial speed.

 

[SixSaw]

Someone post the video...

 

[Thane of Blue Flames]

(Sorry, I keep using you as an example of a great edgeguarder, Fly, but I hope you don't mind.)

Aero could recover v/s Fly's Dedede. TL's recovery has:

a) Distance
b) Mix-ups
c) Safety when the right option is picked

Your argument is invalid. Stop saying Tink has a bad recovery, that will never Fly.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ITdM66k3AE0

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Ya tink has that bomb jump, however I do think his upb could use some assistance, it just feels not good enough every time I use it. I dont play as him nor against him much though.

I do play against a Roy a lot though and I think his recovery is just fine. It is somewhat gimpable, but not very gimpable. I dont know, at least not for me, maybe it sucks against pro players but I still think it should stay the same.