Tier List Speculation

[Spralwers]

Roy's recovery is very weird. Yes he's easy to gimp and he doesn't travel that far with it. But his is one of the few recoveries where sometimes it's better to use it offensively. His up B comes out so quick and his hit box is so far away from him that, unlike just about every character in the game, you can actually attack people with it. And sometimes attacking people with his up B is better than trying to sweet spot or just get to the ledge.

 

[Radical Larry]

I agree, Roy's recovery has offensive properties other than just defeating edge-guarding. Toon Link's recovery move, too, has great finishing abilities in the initial hitboxes, but timing has to be great to actually do it; but overall, Toon Link's recovery is among the bad ones under normal circumstances.

If any character has the most pitiful recovery (UpB) move in the game, it would have to be Pit. However, I am not stating his recovery overall is terrible; in fact, his recovery overall is actually near some of the best in the game.

 

[Droß]

Really? Only like 3 other characters?

The evo results have 8 different characters in the top 8 and the character who is ranked 8th on the tier list got 2nd!
Apex had 11 different characters in the top 16 going all the way back to yoshi and young link!
Genesis 2 had 8 different characters in the top 8 as well, and a guy who got third using mewtwo and marth!

So, while I agree that a lot of characters aren't viable and there are more viable characters in p:m, saying that only four are viable is nuts! Melee is way more balanced than most project m players like to admit.

Remember that Super Smash Bros Melee has twenty five characters. The top 8 most competitive characters might be well balanced in relation to one another, but are they well balanced as a whole cast? Taking statistics on the tournaments from the past two years might be a way to investigate that question.

 

[bolt.]

Remember that Super Smash Bros Melee has twenty five characters. The top 8 most competitive characters might be well balanced in relation to one another, but are they well balanced as a whole cast? Taking statistics on the tournaments from the past two years might be a way to investigate that question.

"So, while I agree that a lot of characters aren't viable and there are more viable characters in p:m, saying that only four are viable is nuts! Melee is way more balanced than most project m players like to admit." - Bolt.

 

[Droß]

"So, while I agree that a lot of characters aren't viable and there are more viable characters in p:m, saying that only four are viable is nuts! Melee is way more balanced than most project m players like to admit." - Bolt.

Oh yeah I kinda forgot you said that, sorry.

But still, if we have a game with 25 characters, why not try to make them all viable? And truly viable to the point where a tier list becomes genuinely debatable with no right answers. It's kinda disheartening as a casual to like a character, decide to go competitive, and then hear "nah only these X characters do really really well at tournaments, you should probably switch."

 

[1MachGO]

it is very much NOT a gimmick. it is something that that you can't just react to or like a tech skill barrier at all.

and how the hell is it even close to a rhythm? there should be no pattern to it. fox shouldn't have any rhythm at all if it's even a mediocre fox. meaning if you guess wrong you die at 90% unlesss you're also a fast faller

I didn't say Fox plays at a rhythm, I made the comparison of comprehending fox's high speed to that of comprehending a rhythm game's. When I look at something like DDR being played at its highest difficulty, all I see are a bunch of symbols flying down the screen. However, with a lot of practice, almost anyone can get good enough to play and understand it. In regards to smash, I'm sure you could find someone who is terrible enough at the game to the point where you could run circles around them with bowser. Its all relative. And while I am not trying to suggest that fox's speed is in no way useless and obviously gives him enormous advantages in terms of defense and punishment, his dominance in the neutral game is largely enhanced by an opponent's lack of reaction time.

It's very important to recognize that this goes both ways though. People already know how to fight Fox/Falco more so than other characters on average. Despite this Fox still does extraordinarily well. Their meta also has additional room to develop as every match up should have a different play style to an extent. That's just the way of the game.

In fact, one could argue that the fact that everyone has experience with Fox hurts him now but will not later. For example, not everyone has experience with high level play involving the other characters and how to deal with them. That doesn't mean Fox isn't amazing, simply that as the game develops he will become more viable rather than less as that "knowledge" regarding how to deal with Fox will no longer be an advantage.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that this particular argument you gave argues both what it says and the exact opposite. It's a substantially flawed argument that I am rather sick of hearing. Both sides of it have a point, and both sides are also correct.

I absolutely believe that Fox and Falco still have ways to go in development and I agree that its a back and forth cycle. However, I feel you missed my central point. I clearly stated that I feel the two characters are far more developed than others due to popularity and time. If the meta had an equal distribution of players and, more importantly, talent, between each character, then strategies and counter strategies would be at a closer equilibrium. The problem is that a lot of people wait for pros to develop strategies, but this becomes a problem when most of the pros are using the characters lower level players are struggling against. Fox and Falco's advantages run deeper than their inherent character traits. This IS a substantial argument.

 

[1MachGO]

it is very much NOT a gimmick. it is something that that you can't just react to or like a tech skill barrier at all.

and how the hell is it even close to a rhythm? there should be no pattern to it. fox shouldn't have any rhythm at all if it's even a mediocre fox. meaning if you guess wrong you die at 90% unlesss you're also a fast faller

I didn't say Fox plays at a rhythm, I made the comparison of comprehending fox's high speed to that of comprehending a rhythm game's. When I look at something like DDR being played at its highest difficulty, all I see are a bunch of symbols flying down the screen. However, with a lot of practice, almost anyone can get good enough to play and understand it. In regards to smash, I'm sure you could find someone who is terrible enough at the game to the point where you could run circles around them with bowser. Its all relative. And while I am not trying to suggest that fox's speed is in no way useless and obviously gives him enormous advantages in terms of defense and punishment, his dominance in the neutral game is largely enhanced by an opponent's lack of reaction time.

It's very important to recognize that this goes both ways though. People already know how to fight Fox/Falco more so than other characters on average. Despite this Fox still does extraordinarily well. Their meta also has additional room to develop as every match up should have a different play style to an extent. That's just the way of the game.

In fact, one could argue that the fact that everyone has experience with Fox hurts him now but will not later. For example, not everyone has experience with high level play involving the other characters and how to deal with them. That doesn't mean Fox isn't amazing, simply that as the game develops he will become more viable rather than less as that "knowledge" regarding how to deal with Fox will no longer be an advantage.

Anyways, what I'm trying to say is that this particular argument you gave argues both what it says and the exact opposite. It's a substantially flawed argument that I am rather sick of hearing. Both sides of it have a point, and both sides are also correct.

I absolutely believe that Fox and Falco still have ways to go in development and I agree that its a back and forth cycle. However, I feel you missed my central point. I clearly stated that I feel the two characters are far more developed than others due to popularity and time. If the meta had an equal distribution of players and, more importantly, talent, between each character, then strategies and counter strategies would be at a closer equilibrium. The problem is that a lot of people wait for pros to develop strategies, but this becomes a problem when most of the pros are using the characters lower level players are struggling against. Fox and Falco's advantages run deeper than their inherent character traits. This IS a substantial argument.

 

[Osennecho]

Your argument is one that's borderline or actually is a strawman... They aren't more developed just because of popularity and time either. They had more room to develop and were better to begin with. Your theory-crafting an ideal every character is equal or almost equal scenario, which is PM's goal. You can't just say the heavily modified characters' meta should have been advanced in their prior games when its a completely different meta.

Also, developing and or successfully implementing those strategies is what takes you to the level of a pro... In no way shape or form are people just waiting, rather its that the pros find those strategies quicker/are the one's finding them in the first place... Also, it's not possible absurdly unlikely to develop and implement a strategy at the level of pros without personal experience at their level.

Maybe I have no idea what you're trying to argue, but if I am interpreting it correctly, than instead of only looking at one side of a coin like I initially thought, it's rather than you aren't seeing all sides of the die.

 

[Giygacoal]

Is there a single character in this game that could hard counter Fox and Falco?

Remember that Super Smash Bros Melee has twenty five characters. The top 8 most competitive characters might be well balanced in relation to one another, but are they well balanced as a whole cast? Taking statistics on the tournaments from the past two years might be a way to investigate that question.

Isn't it 26 including Sheik?

 

[jtm94]

Is there a single character in this game that could hard counter Fox and Falco?


Isn't it 26 including Sheik?

Mewtwo, Meta Knight, Ivysaur almost, doesn't Bowser beat Falco or something or another?

Why are we still talking about Spacies?

And people harp on Brawl for not being balanced, Melee was absolutely TERRIBLE in terms of balance, it's just that the game mechanics rewarded skill and thus a good competitive game was born.

 

[DMG]

Mewtwo is probably the most likely for handling both, out of the characters you listed. MK is not as hot vs Fox, and Ivy is weird.

Mewtwo's MU's in general are very interesting and there's a ton of unexplored room with the character.

 

[jtm94]

Mewtwo is probably the most likely for handling both, out of the characters you listed. MK is not as hot vs Fox, and Ivy is weird.

Mewtwo's MU's in general are very interesting and there's a ton of unexplored room with the character.

There are also counterpick chars/stage combos like Marth FD or Sheik FoD. There may not be someone who shuts them down entirely, but there are some chars that I would say can put them at a disadvantage in various situations.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

MK is advantegous against Fox but not a hard counter. A grab is pretty costly and MK also has the edgeguarding tools, plus his fastfalling lets him live longer at least 10%. Fox is still Fox though and also profits from MKs fastfalling in terms of combos, so I would say 55-45 MK.

 

[Terotrous]

Ivy vs anyone who hits like a bus when they get in is very volatile. She seems pretty easy to combo due her body size and weight.

 

[Strong Badam]

mk def doesn't beat fox
ivy doesn't either

i think both could beat falco though

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Who do you guys think is the most underrated character? People often put roy low, but what about how successful sethlon is, and there are some other roys too. And you cant say its just one guy cause people justify other characters being good based on one person - pit, kinda mewtwo
And what about falcon, he places much better in tournaments than people rate him as. I mean this might be cause a lot of people play him everywhere since he is a mans man, but he still shows more ability than is credited.

 

[SixSaw]

Olimar is by far the most underrated. Not that he's particularly good but more that people seem to instantly assume he's trash because he requires micromanagement.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

Olimar is by far the most underrated. Not that he's particularly good but more that people seem to instantly assume he's trash because he requires micromanagement.

I was gonna say Olimar too, I agree

 

[DMG]

mk def doesn't beat fox
ivy doesn't either

i think both could beat falco though

^^^10agree's, although Ivy might get her booty camped by Fralck0

Who do you guys think is the most underrated character? People often put roy low, but what about how successful sethlon is, and there are some other roys too. And you cant say its just one guy cause people justify other characters being good based on one person - pit, kinda mewtwo
And what about falcon, he places much better in tournaments than people rate him as. I mean this might be cause a lot of people play him everywhere since he is a mans man, but he still shows more ability than is credited.

I dunno about most underrated. Most overrated is a very easy list:

1. Yoshi
2. Lucas
3. Diddy

All 3 of those characters have a lot of "this will work for me!" theory crafting without fully considering what the opponent can do against it. Moreso Lucas and Diddy. People cream their pants because Yoshi can jump OOS now.

Olimar is by far the most underrated. Not that he's particularly good but more that people seem to instantly assume he's trash because he requires micromanagement kind of is.

 

[Ali Baba 177]

^^^10agree's, although Ivy might get her booty camped by Fralck0




I dunno about most underrated. Most overrated is a very easy list:

1. Yoshi
2. Lucas
3. Diddy

All 3 of those characters have a lot of "this will work for me!" theory crafting without fully considering what the opponent can do against it. Moreso Lucas and Diddy. People cream their pants because Yoshi can jump OOS now.

I agree with yoshi and diddy, but lucas? My roommate plays lucas and he doesnt seem that overrated to me with all his options in combos and kill moves. I mean he can kill easy with smashes aerials and upthrow. I mean, it may also be that I just rewatched a bunch of xanadu so pink fresh may be influencing me. But none the less, I think lucas is at least top ten.

But ya, people freak out too much about yoshis jump OOS.

 

[PastLink]

But ya, people freak out too much about yoshis jump OOS.

give a starved man stale bread and he'll eat it like a fine banquet.

 

[DMG]

Give a starved man stale bread, and he'll probably use it to beat you into giving better food

 

[The_NZA]

When people start using RAR, DACUS, and ledge jump wding/options on melee vets like Falco, Fox, Sheik--this world is going to be become a lot scarier.

 

[PastLink]

Give a starved man stale bread, and he'll probably use it to beat you into giving better food

God damn it DMG

 

[JOE!]

Wait, why is MK bad vs Fox?

I thought he could body him

 

[DMG]

Wait, why is MK bad vs Fox?

I thought he could should body him

MK is not *bad* vs Fox. He just doesn't win the MU. There's a decent case for MK = Falco, and even MK > Falco though

 

[MLGF]

In my experience, Fox is just a better weight then Falco when it comes to fighting Meta Knight.
I'd totally buy that Meta Knight has an advantage only on the former.

 

[Fenrir VII]

Theorycrafting only, how does MK not beat Fox?

Quick, disjointed aerials that outrange /out prioritize Fox's options. Good ground speed, so he can keep up against camping. Good grab/combo/gimp game against Fox.. Good enough recovery to avoid Fox gimps.

Seriously, he's like a faster/safer Marth with better offstage game and slightly less kill power.

The only thing that Fox really has going in this match is really early uthrow uair kills, but grabs can be avoided and uair can be SDI'ed. Usmash is not safe on shield against MK, and MK shouldn't even have to shield that much.

On paper, I don't see how MK should be losing that matchup.

 

[B.W.]

He doesn't lose it. He just doesn't win it either.

 

[JOE!]

Yeah, I don't see how he loses vs Fox.

 

[DMG]

You can CC a lot of moves MK typically uses for poking/range advantage. MK looks much better on paper than in practice: he's very similar to Sheik where you don't want to tilt early on vs experienced players. MK doesn't have a projectile to fall back on though, so he's usually left with grab OR walking around with Fsmash. If you jump for an aerial, you lose the ability to grab (which is like 80% of what MK is supposed to do anyways, Dthrow too good) and you can still CC/jank some of his aerial choices.

 

[FireBall Stars]

So you agree that he should be rebalanced ever so slightly?
When would the next update be for PM anyway? End of summer?

We don't have plans for an update just yet, it's possible it will take more time to come than the previous ones.

People want to have more time with 3.0 and the version is solid, so I guess that is a good thing.

 

[Chesstiger2612]

When people start using RAR, DACUS, and ledge jump wding/options on melee vets like Falco, Fox, Sheik--this world is going to be become a lot scarier.

I have the opposite problem, playing with that ATs from the beginning on, but missing the Melee experience + fundamentals...

 

[DontHate-]

You can CC a lot of moves MK typically uses for poking/range advantage. MK looks much better on paper than in practice: he's very similar to Sheik where you don't want to tilt early on vs experienced players. MK doesn't have a projectile to fall back on though, so he's usually left with grab OR walking around with Fsmash. If you jump for an aerial, you lose the ability to grab (which is like 80% of what MK is supposed to do anyways, Dthrow too good) and you can still CC/jank some of his aerial choices.

I think MK Definitely > Falco but MK= or > Fox. You forgot to mention in your post about MK juggle game on fox/falco and MK's Bair. MK bair is very good. Also, the telport is really good too once you see someone teleporting then swinging their sword like 10000x before hitting the ground. Another thing is his side B which I noticed that it crosses you up A LOT. When MK does a side b from clos/mid range and the opponent blocks, he ends up behind them and then spams his jabs which hits behind MK. When he does this,, the only option is roll I guess because it's pointless to CC with your back towards him. Also mk's recovery is of the gods so Fox MUST uthrow upsmash or run up and upsmash, which is very predictable but luckily fox's upsmash on shield pushes him far back enough to be safe unless the opponent wave dashes Oos (which I have not tested yet just heard about it) . Either way, I can see why you would say he doesn't win the match up but it can go either way imo. So more than likely it is MK=Fox or MK > fox.

 

[Terotrous]

Who do you guys think is the most underrated character?

Definitely Squirtle. A lot of people are putting him dead bottom, likely just because they haven't ever seen anyone play him. It's weird, because the consensus was that he was the best of the Pokemon Trainer's pokemon in Brawl (with the catch being that you couldn't use him all the time), and he's only gotten a lot better since Brawl, yet now everyone thinks he sucks.

He's probably at least mid tier overall.

 

[Hashtag]

^^^10agree's, although Ivy might get her booty camped by Fralck0




I dunno about most underrated. Most overrated is a very easy list:

1. Yoshi
2. Lucas
3. Diddy

All 3 of those characters have a lot of "this will work for me!" theory crafting without fully considering what the opponent can do against it. Moreso Lucas and Diddy. People cream their pants because Yoshi can jump OOS now.

Overrated, but by how much?

Sure, diddy's item game can be countered. Then again, diddy's opponents item game can be baited and countered. It's really w/e.

Lucas might be slightly overrated too, but a good one like neon ' s is tough to get in on to do much of anything to without being retaliated against pretty hard.

I still think both lucas and diddy are really great characters.

Yoshi is still... In the works. OoS options make him a better overall character though. I do think he will have significant trouble against the heavy hitters of this game.

Underrated characters, Olimar is at the top of that list in my opnion.

 

[Vashimus]

Definitely Squirtle. A lot of people are putting him dead bottom, likely just because they haven't ever seen anyone play him. It's weird, because the consensus was that he was the best of the Pokemon Trainer's pokemon in Brawl (with the catch being that you couldn't use him all the time), and he's only gotten a lot better since Brawl, yet now everyone thinks he sucks.

He's probably at least mid tier overall.

There is the part where Reflex comes in and says "No, honestly. He really IS that bad."

 

[DontHate-]

I don't think 2.6 Ivy was winning that many tournaments either.


@ DontHate- : If you want to demonstrate that Mewtwo handles spacies, at least don't use Mew2King v/s Random Player in pools as evidence. Have the decency to link to Mew2King v/s DEHF. I can on a similar note provide you with Chillin v/s SmashG0d, two good players who are much closer in skill. Chillin pretty definitively beat SmashG0d's Mewtwo at Xanadu recently, using Wolf, a spacie that takes all of the Foxco collateral damage but lacks the stupid cheese that they get, and is considered a top threat but worse overall than Foxco.

Wait, M2K vs DEHF? The one where Mewtwo 3 stocks falco, Jv 2 stock fox (after m2k suicides), and then Jv 3 stock fox (after Mewtwo suicides TWICE in that round). That Video? I mean, If you insist....

Like I said in my other posts. I know that a video does not cover everything (I even said this on the video I posted) but the purpose was just to show you all a video of falco both boddying and getting boddied so we all can understand why this discussio is beiing had in the first place. All I was saying was that you would be dead wrong in thinking falco is anywhere near the same as melee. Also, Im not making a claim for fox being best or not, just pointing out why he is not broken. Should he be nerfed? Maybe, but it's definitely not clear. But as for Falco, he is most certainly not broken or overpowered in project m. Mewtwo is not the only character that can stop him either, there are others too. So Im specifically speaking about Falco and not fox. Also, Wolf, fox, and falco are all VERY different characters in PM and different play styles so comparing them is like comparing young link and adult link in pm. For your convienience, here is what I posted about falco in reply to somone saying that pikachu might be > or = fox:

He most certainly opened up a can [of worms]. However, to me, reading it was no shock. I may not agree (or even disagree because Im not too knowledgable about the pikachu and fox match up) but I'm glad to see people recognize that fox and ESPECIALLY falco are not as good as their melee counter parts. Not because of the frame data (since it's pretty much exactly the same) but because other characters that are now both new and/or viable present scenarios that did not exist in melee, which can at times even shut down falco and maybe fox. So even if you think he is completely wrong, at the very least you should recognize that in PM it is understandable why someone could even make such a statement. For example: In melee, tell me what you think the falco vs mewtwo match up is..... kay, cool.....

apologies for posting this video twice.... and yes I understand that one match in one video does not cover everything about the match up

Now in PM, tell me what you think the mewtwo vs falco match up is? I personally think it's in mewtwos favor, but guess what? You have every right to argue that it's not. However, what someone would be completely dead wrong about is to say that the falco vs mew two match up is exactly the same as melee. If people would begin seeing the differences between melee and PM like this, they could understand why people make, what may seem to be, such crazy claims because it really is not as clear cut as it use be. That's why I say fox and falco are no longer next to each other on the tier list (probably not even in the same tier but that's a much more complicated discussion for another time).

Also, ENOUGH ABOUT THE FOX/FALCO. LETS CONTINUE MOVING ON TO OTHER CHARACTERS.

 

[Vashimus]

Stick your head in the sand all you want, this is a clear double-standard that should addressed, whether you like it or not.

But you're right, enough of Melee.

Top 10 Brawl characters in P:M, go.

 

[PsionicSabreur]

A quick thing to think about; hasn't Fox's uthrow-uair gotten a little less consistent across the cast due to the different throw release physics? Isn't that potentially a significant indirect buff for Fox lurking in the shadows if they manage to fix that mechanic?