D
Deleted member
Guest
So what you're actually saying is "I don't play this game."
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Tier List Speculation
- Thread starter OkamiBW
- Start date
Paradoxium
Smash Master
Awe **** naw, hell naw mang! **** dat ****!
Maybe you guys should actually play the character before you start spouting out nonsense. I mean have any of you actually played a good Pikachu before?
Pikachu's upsmash is as good as Fox's in my opinion. The advantages Fox's has over Pikachu's is that Fox's is faster and has better coverage as you explained, and the fact that fox is so damn fast.
But!
Pikachu's can be comboed into with u-throw or d-throw and at higher percents Pikachu's up smash is stronger and can be followed up with a down b thunder.
Im not sure about Fox's up smash, but Pikachu can chain multiple upsmash's at low percents on a lot of characters
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Yeah Pikachu is definitely not bottom tier, but he also definitely doesn't have all of Fox's tools.
It's okay for a character to have a super strong tool or two, but their entire moveset shouldn't be made up of them.
DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
We'll, if you have about 100% damage and fox is running at you, a trade won't work because you'll die... Blocking it pushes fox back a lot which gives you maybe only one option to punish, which is the Oos Wavedash that's being discussed. If Wavedash Oos does not work (mind you, this also might depend on your characters wave dashing distance), then the only thing left to do is to out dash dance him, which can be hard if he plans to literally run until he is humping you before doing the up smash. Anyone mind simply testing it out and seeing if it works out and maybe post a gif of it or something?
As for this tierlist, Fox and falco should not be in there own tier anymore. Falco should probably not even be next to fox anymore. This is not melee guys. There are characters that can beat fox/falco (falco even more) in the matchup (Mewtwo and MK just being two of them).Personal tier list.... its not accurate.
S Tier:
A+ Tier:
A Tier:
B Tier:
C Tier:
D Tier:
E Tier:
Unknown:
I also noticed people underestimating Kurby. I think that the tournaments that just passed (including the latest one that chu dat Won with Kurby) might say something (even if it's a little bit) about kurby's tier spot . Kurby was swallowing errrrrrr body and spitting them out off stage. He is not broken but his sucking abilities aren't flaccid either. His head game allow for him to climb to the top after ruthlessly sucking the stocks out of each and every character that presented themselves.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kW8z0B2ij50&list=UUj1J3QuIftjOq9iv_rr7Egw
Seriously though, can anyone explain what happened at 6:16?
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Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
- Messages
- 3,185
Pikachu is definitely pretty low.
Don't flash your butthurt at me you know what I said. I dont think people are assessing how ridiculous the claim was. Fortunately I have yet to see mid-level players earning tournament success by spamming unpunishable usmash on shield from neutral in tournament.
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Fox's up smash has a -24 advantage vs. OoS.
Or should that be disadvantage... hm.
Or should that be disadvantage... hm.
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Vashimus
Smash Master
Have you? Because if you did, you'd agree Pikachu has bad approach. His projectile is nothing special, he has bad range on nearly all of his moves (with his aerials being prone to trading more often than not), his grab-range is short, his short-hop is high, his wavedash sucks and he's super easy to combo.
Pikachu has to take MUCH more risks than Fox does, and a lot of other characters for that matter.
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Usually you just call it advantage or just state the number. If you're +4 on Shield, you are a lucky lucky man. If you're -45, pick a different move. I'm a fan of just using the number instead of +6 advantage or -6 advantage etc
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
http://www.twitch.tv/anther/profile
this man, Anther...
will change your views on Pikachu. Everyone in the netplay chat will not shut up about his Pikachu, ive personally never played him before but ive watched his stream and he goes ape **** on everyone. If your convinced Pikachu is a bad character than hopefully this man can change your mind
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DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
Ok, I won't comment on the pikachu but What do I need to collect in order to play online like that? Do I need just a Wii? A wii and a computer? Just a computer? Brawl disk/ no brawl disk? Iv'e seen the thread about it before but confused about what are the requirements.
Paradoxium
Smash Master
http://smashboards.com/threads/proj...etup-optimization-guide.346700/#post-16398932
You need a pretty good computer, and a dolphin emulator, along with a brawl iso. And if you want to use a gamecube controller you need an adapter
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Vashimus
Smash Master
I've seen Anther, and Pikachu is still not that great of a character in my eyes. You could show a top player or tournament results for nearly every character in this game and make a case for them, since being "bad" in Project M....actually isn't that bad.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
Its not just the results, its the individual things he does with the character. Look closely, look at individual situations, Anther does things that are unique to Pikachu. Just because he looks bad on paper and you don't play him doesn't make him bad. Im no pro, but ill wifi you if you want, just to show you a little bit of Pikachu
DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
But pikachu looks pretty viable (even though I said I wouldn't comment on him) like a lot of characters in the game. I can't wait for about 3 years from now and we see characters jump all over the place in tier. Hell, it's already happened a lot.
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Apollo Ali
Smash Journeyman
Can you do it on Apple laptops?
CaptainKirby
Smash Lord
Kirby's suck-up has what I believe to be grab armor... Chillin was really restless that set, though, and played way too anxious. Not to take away from the fact that he's still an exceptional player by any means, but that he should have been more prudent instead of just going in HAM, for the most part. Kirby's neutral special is pretty nasty against spacies.
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D
Deleted member
Guest
I think your claim is ridiculous. That mid-level players even think it's an acceptable option to disrespect upsmash in neutral indicates that they're relying solely on the goodness of the move. If you do something like a disrespect captain falcon forward smash in neutral, we don't even refer to you as a mid-level player, we say "you are bad" because it is an indefensibly bad decision. Having a YOLO fox upsmash coming at you even being threatening (or killing you outright at 80) is a huge red flag.
I agree with you that pikachu sucks by the way, on the merit of not being fox. a lot of characters have problems not being fox in this game. personally i wish fox was only about mid-tier so the fox players would understand what it's like for every other character.
right, we'll just block fox all the time. we all know how well that's going to go.
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Thane of Blue Flames
Fire is catching.
Chillin's mad, and mad good, but he's jittery. Watching Chullindat829 reminded me a lot of Rat v/s Denti. It's a Wolf thing, I suppose, not used to being patient lol. Chillin's playstyle is very suboptimal for facing Kirby, or at least Chu's. That man uses inhale very, very well at the worst of time, challenging his superior ledge and offstage game is just ... not a good idea. Kirby is definitely good, though. Inhale isn't his only tool, but it's a very good one and together with his combo game and edgeguarding Kirby is probably a cut above mid.
EDIT: Whatever, ad hominem is bad.
Seconding Umbreon's point about "Yeah let's totally shield against Fox woo nothing bad can happen now."
EDIT: Whatever, ad hominem is bad.
Seconding Umbreon's point about "Yeah let's totally shield against Fox woo nothing bad can happen now."
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Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
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- 3,185
Well I guess its time to break out the violin and play the world's saddest song for the mid-level players of PM. Maybe Fox's usmash does deserve to be nerfed, if someone discussed how at high/top level play it lead to Fox being strategically too dominant I could see an argument for the sake of diversity. But the idea that on its own "speed + usmash = win/too good" is taken seriously is too much, reading the latest convos and tossing out mid-level play as red flags reminds me of serious cries that Meta Knight could tornado his way to victory when the same players put no effort into beating it.
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Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
- Jul 1, 2011
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- 3,185
I dont even think thats the real issue. Characters like Fox in melee and MK in Brawl aren't so powerful because of particular moves, it's because theyre the most versatile characters in the game. Fixing them isnt as simple as nerf this move or buff that, the reason they dominate in results is because while other characters will run into counters and take out one another the top tiers statistically will stand out among the rest by virtue of their capability to do so regardless of who they face. On their own however theyre entirely beatable. Not that improving diversity isnt worth considering, but the way its currently framed itd be easy to argue that many other character's "too good" moves should be nerfed as well.
IMO another way to handle this is to allow characters to act as counters to Fox/top tiers. I nominate Pikatchu
.
IMO another way to handle this is to allow characters to act as counters to Fox/top tiers. I nominate Pikatchu
.
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jtm94
Smash Lord
Pikachu's attacks should all have 3 times as much hit stun on space animals.
Down B is a OHKO.
Down B is a OHKO.
1FD
Smash Ace
DISCUSS FOX STUFF IN REAL TIME VIA SKYPE BALLS
I like lurking and seeing the same thing over 9000 times as much as the next Smasher...................
BUT THERE ARE OPTIONS AND YOU CAN TOO
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-think-i-might-know-what-this-place-needs-skype-balls.350666/
Has anybody thought to ask what the Fox says?
YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
CARRY ON SPECULATORS
I like lurking and seeing the same thing over 9000 times as much as the next Smasher...................
BUT THERE ARE OPTIONS AND YOU CAN TOO
http://smashboards.com/threads/i-think-i-might-know-what-this-place-needs-skype-balls.350666/
Has anybody thought to ask what the Fox says?
YAAAAAAAAHHHHHHH
CARRY ON SPECULATORS
Paradoxium
Smash Master
\
YES, but what ive been thinking about for a long time is that Pikachu goes even with Fox! Pikachus u-air now deals more damage and was already good for juggling fox. Pikachu still has his up throw chaingrab, up smash, and uptilt. With the addition of back air Pikachu has a stronger edge guarding game against fox, with QaC Pikachu doesnt have to always sweet spot the ledge, and he can do some fancy mix ups. And downsmash's disjoint beats out nair. I think the match up is 50-50, **** yea i said it.IMO another way to handle this is to allow characters to act as counters to Fox/top tiers. I nominate Pikatchu
@
Paradoxium
You sir, are brave to open that can of worms...
I hope you are prepared, the mob with pitchforks and torches... they gather for the witch hunt.
Paradoxium
You sir, are brave to open that can of worms...
I hope you are prepared, the mob with pitchforks and torches... they gather for the witch hunt.
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Cassio
Smash Master
- Joined
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- 3,185
Pikachu probably does go even with or beat spacies, it's like his only redeeming quality. There might be other characters too. Ironically pika probably gets owned by MK.
Actually I forgot his uthrow doesnt chaingrab or lead to usmash at death percent, so maybe not until they fix that.
Actually I forgot his uthrow doesnt chaingrab or lead to usmash at death percent, so maybe not until they fix that.
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Osennecho
Smash Ace
I still say just take away Fox's gun 
.
.
DontHate-
Smash Cadet
- Joined
- Oct 24, 2013
- Messages
- 65
He most certainly opened up a can. However, to me, reading it was no shock. I may not agree (or even disagree because Im not too knowledgable about the pikachu and fox match up) but I'm glad to see people recognize that fox and ESPECIALLY falco are not as good as their melee counter parts. Not because of the frame data (since it's pretty much exactly the same) but because other characters that are now both new and/or viable present scenarios that did not exist in melee, which can at times even shut down falco and maybe fox. So even if you think he is completely wrong, at the very least you should recognize that in PM it is understandable why someone could even make such a statement. For example: In melee, tell me what you think the falco vs mewtwo match up is..... kay, cool.....@
You sir, are brave to open that can of worms...
I hope you are prepared, the mob with pitchforks and torches... they gather for the witch hunt.
Now in PM, tell me what you think the mewtwo vs falco match up is? I personally think it's in mewtwos favor, but guess what? You have every right to argue that it's not. However, what someone would be completely dead wrong about is to say that the falco vs mew two match up is exactly the same as melee. If people would begin seeing the differences between melee and PM like this, they could understand why people make, what may seem to be, such crazy claims because it really is not as clear cut as it use be. That's why I say fox and falco are no longer next to each other on the tier list (probably not even in the same tier but that's a much more complicated discussion for another time).
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Empyrean
Smash Champion
M2K claims that Mewtwo wrecks spacies and fast-fallers in general, but I'm not too sure about that. One things for sure though, it's that M2K vs spacies is utter carnage.
The Mewtwo buffs were very real and improve Dthrow tech chases + platform chases by quite a bit. Before, you could usually DI away + tech away and limit what M2 could land. Now that you can teleport + attack though, he can keep chasing and quickly port with a Fair before you can recover. Float improves his edgeguarding a lottttt lottttt, very hard to get outplayed or lose in a trade once they get sent offstage.
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Paradoxium
Smash Master
When spacies are at death percent Pikachu's down throw leads to upsmash
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I can't decide if this is amazing and should stay, or total bullcrap that needs to be fixed. Someone help me out here.
Honestly sometimes it is that simple. If USmash was a little weaker, in some situations Fox would have to land one more hit to get a kill, which gives his opponent time to put in more damage or kill him instead.
It's a pretty small change, but there are definitely some close matches where it would make a difference.
Juker
Smash Apprentice
I just got done going through every tournament results for 3.0 listed on this site in the sticky. I saw a grand total of 1 person that used Fox and took 1st place, that wasn't M2K; he also used about 5 other characters. Granted, I didn't bother looking up who the first place people used on the tournaments that didn't have character icons next to them, but I think there were only 2 or so.
Logic tells me that everyone other than Fox is OP.
Logic tells me that everyone other than Fox is OP.
- Joined
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- 26,560
every time someone says "x character struggles by virtue of not being fox" i get a vicarious ego boost for saying that stuff in like 2011
I'd want to see how many Fox's were placing in top 8 rather than winning, that's often the better measure.
Juker
Smash Apprentice
I count 22 total Foxs, not including m2k, or non named ones again because I'm not going to look that up. Also, a lot of those are weekly tournaments with the same person placing in top 8, but still counted. What do you bet we can find plenty of other characters with higher counts? Also, top 8 gets less impressive when you're looking at some tournaments with under 15 entrants. I'm not saying Fox isn't a great character. People are just getting ridiculous in here.
I think the non-named ones might be the problem. I've seen a ton of matches where someone will get beat with their main and then go to Fox. I'm also not sure if leaving out Hungrybox makes sense, because his Fox is usually winning at least a few key matches, without it he might well get knocked out of the tournament. It probably makes sense to count a hungrybox win as a win for every character he uses.
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Juker
Smash Apprentice
Could be. I only didn't bother looking at 4 of the 41 tournaments, because they didn't have icons next to them and I don't feel like searching for the results. So maybe another fox or two in that total. I'm not putting together hard statistics, I'm simply pointing out that Fox hasn't been as dominant as you would think from having read the last few pages. Also, I didn't even know Hungrybox plays Fox. I'm yet to see his in a video, or him switch to him. I really only see him switch to Olimar.